What aspects of the trolley are "cheesy"?
Yes, the definitely looks like it, and one of them is definitely number 512. That trimet link said the trolleys were numbered 511 and 512.
Great question. i don't believe its the highest and best use of a PRIME hub for multi-modal transportation in STL. It goes from the "middle' of the Loop to...Forest Park? Are you joking? I made that walk hundreds of times when I lived in Delmar. Students make that walk every day.blzhrpmd2 wrote:What aspects of the trolley are "cheesy"?
The Trolley should go from Delmar to CWE, CWE to Mid-Town, then Mid-Town to Downtown, Downtown to Soulard, etc. It should connect cultural hubs (current or future) that are not within a walkable distance of each other. You know, like actual, big-boy street car systems.
The Trolley is a buttress of the Joe Edwards empire on Delmar Blvd. As a business person, I respect and admire the move. He had enough wherewithal to form the "Loop Trolley TDD", of which he is the chairman, and is a partnership he leads between county, municipal, and city leaders. That's impressive as hell, in my opinion. The kitsch that Joe Edwards loves is made all the better by a old school trolley rumbling up and down the Loop; it matches "the vibe" of Pin-up Bowl and Peacock Lounge. It's a helluva of an accomplishment, and will pay off in spades as he grows the empire down Delmar. However, if you're more of a Bauhaus kind of guy you were hoping for something a little more progressive. I would have rather paid for the beginnings of a modern street car network. One that can be grown overtime and perhaps linked Delmar to CWE. Perhaps the Loop Trolley could eventually accommodate that? It would make me feel better. I would have even settled for the old trolley look but had it go down Delmar to Kingshighway (CWE). That seems like a good start for a line that could then easily be expanded upon and would spur investment the entire length of Delmar.
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^ its my understanding Joe would love to have street cars all over the city.... but practically he could only start with something very modest and we have to remember that this is being paid for largely through property owners. I can imagine that if the line proves a success we might see interest in expanding the TDD down Delmar to the CWE.... it would be awesome to have a streetcar run down Euclid and connect with Saint Louis Streetcar.
I worry that transit in the city is too central corridor focused. Without a major N-S transit line, rail transit in the city will continue to be a novelty in my opinion.
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^ I understand the necessity for modesty. And and "olde-time" trolley car has a certain cache but its still not the best choice of possible routes for such a streetcar. There isn't a lot of sense in connecting two sequential metro link stops. Metro link stops are (or at least should be) located such that a reasonable walking distance will get you half the distance between two stops. Thus creating an opportunity for dense walkable development without having excessive stops which slow rail travel. This is not always the case as seen in the massive gap between Grand and Union Station but it a rule of thumb in dense areas. It makes little sense to provide a sixth mode (car, bicycle, walking, metro bus, metro link, and now trolley) when there are other routes that lack the fifth. Example Downtown Wash Ave to the AB brewery which would be my fist choice for such a service.
Of course the Loop route has something that all the better ones lacked. Joe Edwards.
The problem I've always had is that an unsuccessful route is a very dangerous and effective weapon to be wielded against further expansions and I do feel the loop trolley will be a failure. Sorry Joe, hope I'm wrong.
Of course the Loop route has something that all the better ones lacked. Joe Edwards.
The problem I've always had is that an unsuccessful route is a very dangerous and effective weapon to be wielded against further expansions and I do feel the loop trolley will be a failure. Sorry Joe, hope I'm wrong.
Not doing it because it might fail sounds like paralysis by fear.
"It makes little sense to provide a sixth mode (car, bicycle, walking, metro bus, metro link, and now trolley) when there are other routes that lack the fifth."
^So does this mean a trolley shouldn't be built anywhere Metrolink goes until Metrolink goes everywhere?
Yes, maybe it's not the ideal route but it doesn't seem like a good idea to hold up progress because it's not perfect or ideal for everyone.
"It makes little sense to provide a sixth mode (car, bicycle, walking, metro bus, metro link, and now trolley) when there are other routes that lack the fifth."
^So does this mean a trolley shouldn't be built anywhere Metrolink goes until Metrolink goes everywhere?
Yes, maybe it's not the ideal route but it doesn't seem like a good idea to hold up progress because it's not perfect or ideal for everyone.
Making a right at Debalivere is the mistake in my opinion. It should trundle all the way down to Kingshighway. Someone could easily walk to the history museum from Delmar at Debalivere.
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^ i love the word "trundle".
IMO a N-S Metrolink line should be the next serious transit investment before a central corridor trolley. the N-S line along with the current E-W lines would provide the scaffolding for a comprehensive system with the interim space filled by streetcars. as it is now, and as it would be after the central corridor streetcar is built, the majority of the city has no service at all.
IMO a N-S Metrolink line should be the next serious transit investment before a central corridor trolley. the N-S line along with the current E-W lines would provide the scaffolding for a comprehensive system with the interim space filled by streetcars. as it is now, and as it would be after the central corridor streetcar is built, the majority of the city has no service at all.
I think it is a mistake to consider this as a transit system or envision that it was ever intended to be. The very reason that Joe Edwards always discussed and pushed for it terms of Trolley and to be stand alone in terms of revenues (box fares and more importantly, Loop TDD) speaks volumes to me.
In other words, The Loop Trolley is another attraction specific to a well established entertainment district. On that perspective, I think it would do much better if it was extended the extra mile in Forest Park to one of biggest day time draws to the region, St. Louis Zoo.
In other words, The Loop Trolley is another attraction specific to a well established entertainment district. On that perspective, I think it would do much better if it was extended the extra mile in Forest Park to one of biggest day time draws to the region, St. Louis Zoo.
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Right... it was a Edwards-Archibald folly trolley designed to connect particular tourist interests. Hopefully it can become part of something larger, and I think Edwards is amenable to that, but its reason for being is something other than serving a real transportation need.
I figured the "cheesy" term applied to route and overall concept, as it's hard to look at the picture of the trolley and think cheap and tacky. I tend to agree that that this endeavor should be seen more as the widening reach of Edwards and the Loop and less of a missed opportunity for the city. While I'd love to see expansion of streetcars into more residential and functional areas, but it seems that there is still a fair amount of good that could come from this.
While the connection between the middle of the Loop and MO History is certainly walkable, I don't think it is all that inviting. Anything that provides an increased non driving connection between Forest Park and the Loop is a good thing, even if it starts out as a tourist niche. A lot of locals visiting Forest Park wouldn't walk down DeBaliviere to Delmar, but they may take the trolley if out for dinner or drinks for the night around Forest Park. I think a lot of people have a stigma about the Forest Park Metro stop also, and especially from a visitor's perspective, the streetcar will likely have a more inviting look. Again, anything that promotes an image of safe urban transit could go a long way for both our tourist experience and our tenous image.
I also see a big opportunity for TOD along DeBaliviere, or at least an impetus to spruce it up. That stretch has always intrigued me as a great little capillary that can set a nice tone for the city.
I think of this as a smaller version of the network that Memphis has in and around their downtown. The Main Street line downtown is closed to traffic and it doesn't go all over town, but it has helped spur development in certain areas, especially South Main. The trolley is also a big time source of pride in Memphis and one of a few popular symbols of civic strength and identity. That may be a lofty goal for STL, but it can strengthen the brand of the Loop and neighborhood identity which helps highlight the diversity STL has to offer.
While the connection between the middle of the Loop and MO History is certainly walkable, I don't think it is all that inviting. Anything that provides an increased non driving connection between Forest Park and the Loop is a good thing, even if it starts out as a tourist niche. A lot of locals visiting Forest Park wouldn't walk down DeBaliviere to Delmar, but they may take the trolley if out for dinner or drinks for the night around Forest Park. I think a lot of people have a stigma about the Forest Park Metro stop also, and especially from a visitor's perspective, the streetcar will likely have a more inviting look. Again, anything that promotes an image of safe urban transit could go a long way for both our tourist experience and our tenous image.
I also see a big opportunity for TOD along DeBaliviere, or at least an impetus to spruce it up. That stretch has always intrigued me as a great little capillary that can set a nice tone for the city.
I think of this as a smaller version of the network that Memphis has in and around their downtown. The Main Street line downtown is closed to traffic and it doesn't go all over town, but it has helped spur development in certain areas, especially South Main. The trolley is also a big time source of pride in Memphis and one of a few popular symbols of civic strength and identity. That may be a lofty goal for STL, but it can strengthen the brand of the Loop and neighborhood identity which helps highlight the diversity STL has to offer.
I regularly use the Forest Park stop, and if I am honest it is a little scary. There is normally a group of black men that hang out around the fareboxes and try to get you to buy their transfers.
I think it's funny that there's a sign on top that says "Vintage Trolley", as if people can't make that conclusion on their own. By the way, I think the Portland trolleys were actually built in the '70s. I would much prefer the PCC streetcars to the Mr. Rogers trolleys, but beggars can't be choosers, I suppose.
^ Hopefully the upcoming Gateway Card can help do away with some of that nonsense.
For some reason I was thinking the trolley was going to be free. I certainly wouldn't pay to ride it, unless absolutely horrific weather dictates.
It seems most similar to the McKinney Avenue Streetcar in Dallas , which is free to ride and is more of a tourist line than actual transit. Both that and the Delmar trolley connect a couple of light rail stops to an adjacent entertainment district. Both have, or will have, mediocre hours and headways.
http://www.mata.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKinney_A ... _Authority
It seems most similar to the McKinney Avenue Streetcar in Dallas , which is free to ride and is more of a tourist line than actual transit. Both that and the Delmar trolley connect a couple of light rail stops to an adjacent entertainment district. Both have, or will have, mediocre hours and headways.
http://www.mata.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKinney_A ... _Authority
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Is the loop trolley fare system going to be incorporated into the metro line or will you have to buy a separate ticket to ride the trolley? I vaguely remember reading it is not.
The reason I ask is hopefully a major user of this line will be Wash U students. I teach lessons and I ask all my wash u students, did you know there was going to be a loop trolley.
they all said no,
they then say "cool! we never go east past the tivoli..."(they don't have cars.) though now I suspect they will walk down to the grocery store (reminds me to ask them) BUT most telling, I take them to PI once a semester, and every time, the say, "the only other time I was down here was LAST semester..."
They get excited to be able to take a trolley ALL the WAY west to Pi and other things down there. Then I say, "well did you know you will have to pay for it?"
"What? it isn't included with our metro pass?" (since all Wash U students pay a fee for unlimited use of bus and metro line - most take a metro bus over from main campus to the 560 music building - yes the metro bus has a line that goes right to the music building)
"nope" I say
"oh well I guess I won't use it..."
So I really hope that in fact, I'm wrong and that the Wash U students will be able to use a card to ride it for "free"
I suppose Joe Edwards or some advocacy group could get them to include the loop trolley in their student fees... that would work, but if those students have to get out money I don't think they will use the trolley nearly enough....
AND I love that roundabout at the end of delmar... if only we had more of them...
The reason I ask is hopefully a major user of this line will be Wash U students. I teach lessons and I ask all my wash u students, did you know there was going to be a loop trolley.
they all said no,
they then say "cool! we never go east past the tivoli..."(they don't have cars.) though now I suspect they will walk down to the grocery store (reminds me to ask them) BUT most telling, I take them to PI once a semester, and every time, the say, "the only other time I was down here was LAST semester..."
They get excited to be able to take a trolley ALL the WAY west to Pi and other things down there. Then I say, "well did you know you will have to pay for it?"
"What? it isn't included with our metro pass?" (since all Wash U students pay a fee for unlimited use of bus and metro line - most take a metro bus over from main campus to the 560 music building - yes the metro bus has a line that goes right to the music building)
"nope" I say
"oh well I guess I won't use it..."
So I really hope that in fact, I'm wrong and that the Wash U students will be able to use a card to ride it for "free"
I suppose Joe Edwards or some advocacy group could get them to include the loop trolley in their student fees... that would work, but if those students have to get out money I don't think they will use the trolley nearly enough....
AND I love that roundabout at the end of delmar... if only we had more of them...
^ Most Wash U students don't keep up with anything St. Louis related, or much of anything beyond their immediate academic/social commitments. It doesn't surprise me that they don't know about the trolley, but to hear people say they don't go past the Tivoli is more than a little embarrassing. I'm telling you, sometimes WU students act like they don't have functional legs
It would make sense to me that now with the Loop apartments that WU would subsidize the trolley stuff or just jack tuition up a little to cover the cost. Otherwise, yeah, you're right that it probably wouldn't get much traffic from students
It would make sense to me that now with the Loop apartments that WU would subsidize the trolley stuff or just jack tuition up a little to cover the cost. Otherwise, yeah, you're right that it probably wouldn't get much traffic from students
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