There is no correlation whatsoever. It's idiotic to think there is. These teens drive downtown, they park on Market along City Garden and Peabody and then go dick around
It's time to bring the scooters back with common sense safety features in place like 10mph speed limit in downtown, no docking on Washington Ave and facial recognition ID verification
How is there no correlation and what basis is there to bring them back?
It sounds like a large group of stakeholders want them gone - The Hotel Association and the Residents Association. They were able to get them removed from downtown and had a successful weekend. Not sure how you can ignore the stakeholders and declare it's an anomaly yet.
There is no correlation whatsoever. It's idiotic to think there is. These teens drive downtown, they park on Market along City Garden and Peabody and then go dick around
It's time to bring the scooters back with common sense safety features in place like 10mph speed limit in downtown, no docking on Washington Ave and facial recognition ID verification
How is there no correlation and what basis is there to bring them back?
It sounds like a large group of stakeholders want them gone - The Hotel Association and the Residents Association. They were able to get them removed from downtown and had a successful weekend. Not sure how you can ignore the stakeholders and declare it's an anomaly yet.
These have been around for over 220 weekends now with no issues. There is no actual evidence of them causing crime or the means of transportation for teens to downtown
I'm a member of the residents association, I don't recall any discussion, also a member of the community mobility committee and we're working on getting them back asap. The guests at hotels love them.
^I agree as a resident as well I want them back. These kids be riding with others in cars not scooters. Only reason this weekend and probably this one coming up were and will be mild weekends is because is too damn hot to commit crimes. Curfew at midnight is mad dumb it should start at 6 and if downtown should be accompanied by adults. Start holding parents accountable and you’ll see results. The city needs to bring stuff to these kids communities near their homes, activities that last until dawn and be close to their home as curfew starts.
To be fair one of the articles does say that some of the teens confessed they do ride the scooters to downtown apparently from Forest Park even. Still does not mean they should be blamed as they are just a means of transportation. Either they will find a new way to get downtown or they will just move their group gatherings.
The moving target in St. Louis will just shift again since they aren’t fixing the actual problem that is where these teens live does not seem to have activities to keep them occupied. Unoccupied teens with little guidance in groups is ripe for debauchery. I certainly understand why they do it I to enjoyed a little debauchery in my youth.
So I agree that parents should be accountable but I also believe if they want real change they need to have organized events of sorts for these kids to partake in or they will just continue to find their own ways to have fun.
^How much of the trouble is really teenagers? Genuine question here, as I honestly don't know. I know folks of my age often complain that teenagers are up to no good. (And probably did when I was a teenager as well, though I wasn't exposed to their complaints. But "kids these days" is a complaint you can apparently find in classical texts.)
I can see where it might be more of a problem now, since wages are so very low that two or more working adults to a household might well be the norm now in the working class. On the other hand, I also suspect that teenagers these days probably rebel against the organized stuff at least as much as they ever did, and kids complaining that "there's nothing to do in this town" is also pretty standard stuff. Even if there's a ton and a half to do. (I remember listening to my friends make that complaint in high school. It annoyed the heck out of me, as I was just as much of a St. Louis booster then as now. And I remember sitting through a small local film festival with successive teenager-shot documentaries all saying exactly that about a series of progressively smaller towns. Come to think, it might have been an early iteration of T/F, but don't quote me on that. It was a lot of years ago. Some of the same people, in any case, since it was at RagTag in the early days.)
Anyway, if it's really the younger set making trouble this could be a difficult proposition, as I bet there ARE organized activities, but there will always be people that don't want to do them. And there's probably less energy to spend on teenager wrangling at the bottom of the economic ladder than ever. And there's less tolerance in US society now for free-range kids than ever before. I shudder to think what trouble my mother would get in if she sent an eight year old me to do grocery shopping alone today. (Which she did when I was actually eight. No bread or milk? Here's a buck. Go buy some from one of the several stores available inside a half mile of my childhood home. Exactly none of which are there anymore, and near which is only one convenience store now.)
Don't mind me. Just . . . thinking out loud. Short version? I think our automotivated, single use, suburbanized culture are a bigger part of the problem than we typically admit. (And we admit that more around here than most places.)
symphonicpoet wrote:^How much of the trouble is really teenagers? Genuine question here, as I honestly don't know. I know folks of my age often complain that teenagers are up to no good. (And probably did when I was a teenager as well, though I wasn't exposed to their complaints. But "kids these days" is a complaint you can apparently find in classical texts.)
I can see where it might be more of a problem now, since wages are so very low that two or more working adults to a household might well be the norm now in the working class. On the other hand, I also suspect that teenagers these days probably rebel against the organized stuff at least as much as they ever did, and kids complaining that "there's nothing to do in this town" is also pretty standard stuff. Even if there's a ton and a half to do. (I remember listening to my friends make that complaint in high school. It annoyed the heck out of me, as I was just as much of a St. Louis booster then as now. And I remember sitting through a small local film festival with successive teenager-shot documentaries all saying exactly that about a series of progressively smaller towns. Come to think, it might have been an early iteration of T/F, but don't quote me on that. It was a lot of years ago. Some of the same people, in any case, since it was at RagTag in the early days.)
Anyway, if it's really the younger set making trouble this could be a difficult proposition, as I bet there ARE organized activities, but there will always be people that don't want to do them. And there's probably less energy to spend on teenager wrangling at the bottom of the economic ladder than ever. And there's less tolerance in US society now for free-range kids than ever before. I shudder to think what trouble my mother would get in if she sent an eight year old me to do grocery shopping alone today. (Which she did when I was actually eight. No bread or milk? Here's a buck. Go buy some from one of the several stores available inside a half mile of my childhood home. Exactly none of which are there anymore, and near which is only one convenience store now.)
Don't mind me. Just . . . thinking out loud. Short version? I think our automotivated, single use, suburbanized culture are a bigger part of the problem than we typically admit. (And we admit that more around here than most places.)
From experience of seeing who is on the scooters, at least the ones the complainers are referring to, it is probably an age range of 16-20 (maybe older ones are 21/22) but who am I kidding it’s hard to guess ages these days for the youth.
I do agree with everything you’ve said except the part that there are activities which I can’t confirm or deny. Maybe there are but are they located in proximity to them? Are they affordable or free? I’d imagine these teens are like you said from middle class working families so if things aren’t affordable it’s just easier and cheaper to plop them in a park and say “be good”. Which I don’t think is wrong either as that’s how I was raised it’s just a matter of discipline and choices at that point and well some weren’t happy with the choices so we were all punished.
Bring the scooters back and add securities to who can ride or at least verification of who is riding. We need affordable mobility because not everyone can walk into a store and buy a bike or scooter, especially electric ones.
^I'm inclined to think what we need is a walkable city with good, affordable public transit. And cheap, reliable, comfortable bikes can absolutely be a part of that. Possibly scooters too, but I'm in no place to judge. The utter crap that is apparently US bikes these days probably doesn't help, though.
As to activities, heck, I don't know. Just speculating. I expect there are some. Some are probably affordable. Others maybe not. I'm just ruminating about the complainers from my own youth. Wish I had some answers here.
I had mentioned this a while back. My role as an employee gave me inside info and as a result I sign confidentiality agreements. Today, the employees in the building I work received the email their downtown building is being closed as the market is consolidated. Employees will be moved to other locations - the majority are moving into suburbia. With the employees notified, I don't think the media is far behind. It will be interesting to hear the pitch publicly. I will keep my ears open and once it appears public can share more.
So I’m spending a few days in Memphis (have not been here since 2017) Holy cow!!! Downtown Memphis is happening big time! Extending riverfront attractions, a lot of new apartments and lofts, a lot of movement Downtown on a week day. I’m very impressed with the changes in such a short period of time!! Saint Louis needs to step it up big time! We still in first gear when our surrounding cities are way ahead!!
So I’m spending a few days in Memphis (have not been here since 2017) Holy cow!!! Downtown Memphis is happening big time! Extending riverfront attractions, a lot of new apartments and lofts, a lot of movement Downtown on a week day. I’m very impressed with the changes in such a short period of time!! Saint Louis needs to step it up big time! We still in first gear when our surrounding cities are way ahead!!
That southward extension of downtown is impressive and I was also surprised. I guess that's the "South Bluffs" area.
But outside of that they don't have much else. No Soulard, No Grove, No CWE and especially Memphis does not have a Clayton.
I'm not knocking their growth and am glad to see it.
So I’m spending a few days in Memphis (have not been here since 2017) Holy cow!!! Downtown Memphis is happening big time! Extending riverfront attractions, a lot of new apartments and lofts, a lot of movement Downtown on a week day. I’m very impressed with the changes in such a short period of time!! Saint Louis needs to step it up big time! We still in first gear when our surrounding cities are way ahead!!
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I love Memphis but have not ever been impressed by its vibrancy to much of a degree outside of a few commercial/bar strips in the numerous times I've visited the last decade. It descends into stroads, distress, disrepair and suburbia pretty quickly. Downtown St. Louis has way more bones and potential than Downtown Memphis. Not to mention our urbanity and density is stoutly more widspread and consistent (I don't have numbers in front of me, so feel free to shoot me down). Really, it has nothing on Downtown STL IMO other than the streetcar line, possibly(?) denser granular retail and some very important cultural institutions/museums, and Downtown STL in comparison to other major city centers likewise is missing a lot of keys itself. Memphis is not "way ahead". Nor are we. We're both mired in the middledome of once-was-successful Mississippi river cities.
So I’m spending a few days in Memphis (have not been here since 2017) Holy cow!!! Downtown Memphis is happening big time! Extending riverfront attractions, a lot of new apartments and lofts, a lot of movement Downtown on a week day. I’m very impressed with the changes in such a short period of time!! Saint Louis needs to step it up big time! We still in first gear when our surrounding cities are way ahead!!
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I love Memphis but have not ever been impressed by its vibrancy to much of a degree outside of a few commercial/bar strips in the numerous times I've visited the last decade. It descends into stroads, distress, disrepair and suburbia pretty quickly. Downtown St. Louis has way more bones and potential than Downtown Memphis. Not to mention our urbanity and density is stoutly more widspread and consistent (I don't have numbers in front of me, so feel free to shoot me down). Really, it has nothing on Downtown STL IMO other than the streetcar line, possibly(?) denser granular retail and some very important cultural institutions/museums, and Downtown STL in comparison to other major city centers likewise is missing a lot of keys itself. Memphis is not "way ahead". Nor are we. We're both mired in the middledome of once-was-successful Mississippi river cities.
Agreed.
But you do have to give props to Memphis on two things:
-not ruining their main riverfront with an interstate
-not destroying their central core with one or more east-west interstates. Some of those stroads could have well been turned into interstates.
We really are sibling cities with our individual, but similar issues.
It's been a few years since I've been to Memphis but even then the South Main District was really coming into it's own as an extension of downtown. Locals, and even some tourists who get overwhelmed with the three block long mini-Bourbon Street that is Beale St find it a nice counter to Big A** Beers.
Also there are no barriers like interstate highways or railyards to complicate walking between Beale/DT Memphis and South Main. Years ago it was kind of sketchy and barren in the blocks near the Civil Rights Museum. Now you see tourists walking between the museum and Beale without a second thought.
But while Beale and South Main are connected now other Memphis nabes outside of downtown seem to be more isolated than comparable STL neighborhoods. Cooper-Young is a great little district but there's really nothing else around it and I have a harder time seeing that neighborhood connect to downtown Memphis the way Soulard is slowly connecting to DT STL.
And while Memphis may have been eclipsed by Nashville when it comes to tourism in recent years it still gets a fair share more than we do. With the exception of Graceland the tourist attractions in Memphis are almost all downtown or DT adjacent (Sun Studio).
STLCityMike wrote:I had mentioned this a while back. My role as an employee gave me inside info and as a result I sign confidentiality agreements. Today, the employees in the building I work received the email their downtown building is being closed as the market is consolidated. Employees will be moved to other locations - the majority are moving into suburbia. With the employees notified, I don't think the media is far behind. It will be interesting to hear the pitch publicly. I will keep my ears open and once it appears public can share more.
^ if he office is located around 10th and Clark I have some ideas
This is going to keep happening, here and everywhere. Centene canceled buildings in Clayton, it's returning 200,000 of office space in county and reducing lease costs by $230,000,000 a year and taking a $700m right off on other leases. Office capacity won't ever be 100% pre covid, best case is 70%
And while Memphis may have been eclipsed by Nashville when it comes to tourism in recent years it still gets a fair share more than we do. With the exception of Graceland the tourist attractions in Memphis are almost all downtown or DT adjacent (Sun Studio).
Found this comment interesting. You could be right about Memphis having more tourists than Saint Louis, but I'd love to see some data. Or do you mean just downtown tourism?
^ if he office is located around 10th and Clark I have some ideas
This is going to keep happening, here and everywhere. Centene canceled buildings in Clayton, it's returning 200,000 of office space in county and reducing lease costs by $230,000,000 a year and taking a $700m right off on other leases. Office capacity won't ever be 100% pre covid, best case is 70%
What data or other information makes you believe office, best case, will be 70% pre covid levels?
That doesn't even include the fact that many employees will only be coming to the office 1-2 times a week from here on out. People have gotten the taste of the work at home life and are holding onto it with bloody fingers.
And while Memphis may have been eclipsed by Nashville when it comes to tourism in recent years it still gets a fair share more than we do. With the exception of Graceland the tourist attractions in Memphis are almost all downtown or DT adjacent (Sun Studio).
Found this comment interesting. You could be right about Memphis having more tourists than Saint Louis, but I'd love to see some data. Or do you mean just downtown tourism?
Actually I am completely wrong that Memphis has more tourists. At least according to the Googles Memphis gets 10 million total visitors each year while STL has 25 million. This includes visitors to the entire region.
I would still argue that downtown Memphis is more tourist oriented than downtown STL. Everyone who visits Memphis hits that 3 block stretch of Beale St at some point in their trip, and some spend the entire time downtown.
Sure we have the Arch but there's no touchpoint in our downtown that's similar.
And while Memphis may have been eclipsed by Nashville when it comes to tourism in recent years it still gets a fair share more than we do. With the exception of Graceland the tourist attractions in Memphis are almost all downtown or DT adjacent (Sun Studio).
Found this comment interesting. You could be right about Memphis having more tourists than Saint Louis, but I'd love to see some data. Or do you mean just downtown tourism?
Actually I am completely wrong that Memphis has more tourists. At least according to the Googles Memphis gets 10 million total visitors each year while STL has 25 million. This includes visitors to the entire region.
I would still argue that downtown Memphis is more tourist oriented than downtown STL. Everyone who visits Memphis hits that 3 block stretch of Beale St at some point in their trip, and some spend the entire time downtown.
Sure we have the Arch but there's no touchpoint in our downtown that's similar.
How many of those 10 million hit Graceland then stay someplace like Olive Branch or Germantown
The only thing I’m jealous of Memphis is the pandas at their zoo.
^^^ It started with my comment with less resources Downtown Memphis looks more vibrant than ours. We have a better rail system but the diversity riding them are only seen at ball games. They have a Triple A baseball team, Semi professional soccer team that plays at their AAA Ballpark and an NBA team. They also have Beale street and somehow they manage to have people downtown of all ethnicities on a week day night every night that I was there. Their $1B plan to continue to fix Downtown is amazing. Their riverfront its been expanded as we speak and a whole bunch of new not redevelop buildings are been built from scratch.
My point is that we have the upper hand in so many ways and things and we’re the one’s at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to Downtown.
