urbanSTL

^GC, I don't it is confirmed on going forward on or another but sounds like they were definitely doing their due diligence with a definite site location.   

dredger wrote: ↑

May 04, 2021

^GC, I don't it is confirmed on going forward on or another but sounds like they were definitely doing their due diligence with a definite site location.   

Yeah, those FAA records are the only evidence I've seen that they were serious about it, beyond just looking at an available property. And their interest in the Compton/Chouteau site was likely spurred in part by proximity to a large, mixed-use restaurant and entertainment destination. The demise of the Iron Hill development obviously would have changed their calculations.

That said, there's definitely a market for this sort of destination entertainment in the central corridor. I just think there are better places for it.

urbanitas wrote: ↑

May 05, 2021

dredger wrote: ↑

May 04, 2021

^GC, I don't it is confirmed on going forward on or another but sounds like they were definitely doing their due diligence with a definite site location.   

Yeah, those FAA records are the only evidence I've seen that they were serious about it, beyond just looking at an available property. And their interest in the Compton/Chouteau site was likely spurred in part by proximity to a large, mixed-use restaurant and entertainment destination. The demise of the Iron Hill development obviously would have changed their calculations.

That said, there's definitely a market for this sort of destination entertainment in the central corridor. I just think there are better places for it.

Don't forget that Steelcote Square will fulfill much of what Iron Hill would've done, just in a more organic growth pattern. As discussed on the Steelcote thread, Pier Property Group owns several parcels that could lead to two or three additional buildings being built and SLU owns a large parcel along Grand that they could choose to sell to Pier. So say if Pier built 4 additional buildings plus the current cluster of three, you'd have a mixed-use development that includes restaurants, bars, maybe some shops, and maybe a micro brewery/distillery where there previously were none. 

It's all speculation of course, but the demise of Iron Hill, in my view, would have nothing to do with Top Golf cancelling the Midtown location. If they would, then that's pretty short sighted because, to my knowledge, three developers are looking at the Iron Hill site presently. So, I'm sure Top Golf is still looking at that idea, just it was pushed back a bit as a result of the nearby development shake up and pandemic. I could see Top Golf canceling the location if they fell hard financially and couldn't catch themselves (which there's no indication of that) or if SLU decided to issue an RFP for the land in favor of a mixed-use development or something else. 

In short, the Midtown location would be a cash cow with or without Iron Hill thanks to the proximity to Steelcote Square, the University, MetroLink Station, 70 Grand Bus, Interstate Highways, and all the residents who live East of 170.

Iron Hill was a massive undertaking, and underwhelming in urban sense.  I gave it a 30/70 on actually happening.  Felt too pie in the sky, and lazy.  I think Pier is doing some great stuff, and it's happening in bite sized pieces rather than creating some weird utopia.

^^ Agree with Chris take on it.   Pandemic driving a business decision for a company with an in person and for all reality an inside venue as well entertainment business model.   It will be interesting to see if it comes back on the radar in three months.   One thing that might be helpfull is that it is business intended to be in a metro area where vaccination rates would tend to be higher I believe.   

sc4mayor wrote: ↑

May 04, 2021

I was curious what a TopGolf might look like here, so here's a very, very rudimentary screenshot of the area with one overlaid on top of it.  I didn't include parking...would be nice to have structured parking with buildings along Chouteau and part of Compton...

Pretty good visualization.

I assumed it'd go with the building facing Chouteau, but this makes sense view wise.

Landing a Top Golf in the city limits would be a big image boost and the way this area is shaping up Midtown is looking like it's still full of momentum.  Rec Hall at the armory will be incredible too from the plans I've seen.

goat314 wrote: ↑

May 04, 2021

dweebe wrote: ↑

May 04, 2021

I drove by Top Golf in Chesterfield on a coolish Wednesday night a few weeks ago. The parking lot was full and I can only assume people were inside paying $9 for a draft beer, $15 for chicken wings and $45/hour to golf.

Would it be nice if Enterprise Holdings had their new headquarters there or it was a bustling residential area? Yes. Are Top Golfs ugly? Yes. But this is the type of things we need back in the city and the location is right.

Exactly, another thing people rarely think about is that these types of developments bring jobs to our large unskilled labor class. The location is transit accessible, will provide a few hundred jobs to low income city residents, will improve the infrastructure around this area, etc. The problem we have in St. Louis is that many of our tourist attractions and entertainment destinations are so spread out and lack transit access, so many of those businesses can't even fill entry level job positions. Call me crazy, but would having a Walmart in the city really be a bad idea?

Not crazy. A poorly performing Walmart can have $20M+ per year in sales (the higher performing ones can do much, much more) which is a direct translation to sales taxes.  

dweebe wrote: ↑

May 05, 2021

realclear wrote: ↑

May 05, 2021

goat314 wrote: ↑

May 04, 2021

Exactly, another thing people rarely think about is that these types of developments bring jobs to our large unskilled labor class. The location is transit accessible, will provide a few hundred jobs to low income city residents, will improve the infrastructure around this area, etc. The problem we have in St. Louis is that many of our tourist attractions and entertainment destinations are so spread out and lack transit access, so many of those businesses can't even fill entry level job positions. Call me crazy, but would having a Walmart in the city really be a bad idea?

Not crazy. A poorly performing Walmart can have $20M+ per year in sales (the higher performing ones can do much, much more) which is a direct translation to sales taxes.  

But show me a WalMart that isn't TIF'd to the hilt. Does Maplewood get anything from WalMart even though their police/EMTs are up there constantly?

Here you go. 

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/met ... c7276.html

dweebe wrote: ↑

May 05, 2021

realclear wrote: ↑

May 05, 2021

goat314 wrote: ↑

May 04, 2021

Exactly, another thing people rarely think about is that these types of developments bring jobs to our large unskilled labor class. The location is transit accessible, will provide a few hundred jobs to low income city residents, will improve the infrastructure around this area, etc. The problem we have in St. Louis is that many of our tourist attractions and entertainment destinations are so spread out and lack transit access, so many of those businesses can't even fill entry level job positions. Call me crazy, but would having a Walmart in the city really be a bad idea?

Not crazy. A poorly performing Walmart can have $20M+ per year in sales (the higher performing ones can do much, much more) which is a direct translation to sales taxes.  

But show me a WalMart that isn't TIF'd to the hilt. Does Maplewood get anything from WalMart even though their police/EMTs are up there constantly?

I think a TIF takes 100% of the property tax increment for TIF bonds, but 50% of the sales taxes. That's why the munis love them. Tax as many non-resident shoppers as you can. If you do well you might not need a municipal property tax at all. Of course they can't all win that .game.

33 applications were made to the FAA on May 14th. Four were for a 53ft tall clubhouse. The other 29 were for poles ranging from 90ft to 190ft. When the coordinates of these applications are placed on a map, it reveals that the TopGolf will be built with the clubhouse's views facing Downtown. Overlaid with the Chesterfield puts the main entrance at the end of Papin and just a short walk away from Steelcote Crossing (which has a retail space that's meant to become a microbrewery). Say Papin is extended to Grand, then people coming from Grand (whether by foot or car) will have a clear look at the main entrance into TopGolf.  

I think with this, it cracks a lot of the mystery behind the project and gives us a pretty clear look at what to expect (minus parking). Personally, I think we will see a surface parking lot along Chouteau and replacing the two buildings to the southeast of Papin and Theresa.

Finally, the FAA applications state that a construction work schedule is from March 1st 2022 to December 31st 2023 (take this as a grain of salt since it can change).

P.S.: There should be a formal announcement on this coming this summer. 

Blue dots on the map are coordinates. Second picture is the Chesterfield location overlaid on the site. @sc4mayor your overlay on Page 4 of this thread was basically spot on.

Wooohooo! Thanks for the update Chris.

chriss752 wrote: ↑

Jun 15, 2021

33 applications were made to the FAA on May 14th. Four were for a 53ft tall clubhouse. The other 29 were for poles ranging from 90ft to 190ft. When the coordinates of these applications are placed on a map, it reveals that the TopGolf will be built with the clubhouse's views facing Downtown. Overlaid with the Chesterfield puts the main entrance at the end of Papin and just a short walk away from Steelcote Crossing (which has a retail space that's meant to become a microbrewery). Say Papin is extended to Grand, then people coming from Grand (whether by foot or car) will have a clear look at the main entrance into TopGolf.  

I think with this, it cracks a lot of the mystery behind the project and gives us a pretty clear look at what to expect (minus parking). Personally, I think we will see a surface parking lot along Chouteau and replacing the two buildings to the southeast of Papin and Theresa.

Finally, the FAA applications state that a construction work schedule is from March 1st 2022 to December 31st 2023 (take this as a grain of salt since it can change).

P.S.: There should be a formal announcement on this coming this summer. 

Blue dots on the map are coordinates. Second picture is the Chesterfield location overlaid on the site. @sc4mayor your overlay on Page 4 of this thread was basically spot on.

Awesome news!  And nice detective work on it.

Super excited to have another marquee entertainment option in the city!

Impressive sleuthing sir.  I think this will be a great development for the area and will draw very well from the city, inner ring suburbs and metro east.

Awesome work sir!  

Here's an approximate view from one of the higher decks of a completed TopGolf looking at downtown (though you'll have to imagine the screens) - this should be a fantastic vantage point of the city:  

https://www.google.com/maps/place/S+Com ... 90.2295443

-RBB

rbb wrote: ↑

Jun 15, 2021

Awesome work sir!  

Here's an approximate view from one of the higher decks of a completed TopGolf looking at downtown (though you'll have to imagine the screens) - this should be a fantastic vantage point of the city:  

https://www.google.com/maps/place/S+Com ... 90.2295443

-RBB

Looks like a great view of Downtown!  Also not shown due to Maps needing updated, is the Union Station Ferris wheel and the MLS Stadium that'll be completed by the time Top Golf opens.