urbanSTL

urbanitas wrote: ↑

Sep 27, 2020

frequentflyer wrote: ↑

Sep 27, 2020

Well, as I said, I knew my comments wouldn't be liked by some people.    I will agree, however, that parking garages hold the least architectural or aesthetic value.  I just don't see how nondescript buildings - that have been abandoned for years  - can be much more appealing.

It needs some TLC, no doubt, but "nondescript"? Really?

And of the 5 or 6 buildings on this block, only this one, 1900 Olive, was vacant. But that's only been since the salon moved out some time in 2015. None of them are abandoned, unless by "abandoned" you meant, "it doesn't have a Starbucks in it"...?

I really don't understand the need for your hostile and condescending attitude.  
What's so special about this building? Nothing, really. 

Could it be rehabbed?  Maybe - assuming you'd find someone to make the investment.  If so, then maybe your Starbucks would lease space in the building.  

Is a parking garage/lot the ideal alternative?  No, but that's what the new ownership groups feels they need to improve/protect their investment.

Besides, what you or I, or anyone else, thinks/wants/hopes is irrelevant.  The MLS ownership group chose to pony up the money for the team, the stadium, and some of the surrounding space.  They're the ones who are writing the checks, so what they want is what's going to happen.  The rest of us can choose to support or not support their efforts.

frequentflyer wrote: ↑

Sep 27, 2020

I hear what you're saying, but Boston, Philly, and DC aren't St. Louis.

i love this refrain. "it's not that we've been razing the city for parking for the last 70 years! it must be some intangible/cosmic force that makes St. Louis SO different from all these other cities that are thriving and—coincidentally—didn't raze all their buildings for parking! if we just level one more block... things are really gonna change! you'll see!"

frequentflyer wrote: ↑

Sep 27, 2020

urban_dilettante wrote: ↑

Sep 27, 2020

urbanitas wrote: ↑

Sep 27, 2020

It needs some TLC, no doubt, but "nondescript"? Really?

And of the 5 or 6 buildings on this block, only this one, 1900 Olive, was vacant. But that's only been since the salon moved out some time in 2015. None of them are abandoned, unless by "abandoned" you meant, "it doesn't have a Starbucks in it"...?

^ i hate going to, like, Boston or Philly or DC and seeing all the nondescript old buildings like that one that haven't been plowed for garages yet. such a bummer.

I hear what you're saying, but Boston, Philly, and DC aren't St. Louis.

Because we keep tearing it down for auto-orientation. That's why some of us advocate for different choices.

^ Exactly... surface parking with the vague possibility of taxpayer supported mixed-use parking garage sometime in the future just isn't acceptable.  If there were plans presented for an appropriate replacement along with beginning the approval process for it then that's one thing, but instead it looks like we're witnessing a ridiculous failure of local government. 

It always makes me sad we can't have a real neighborhood around public amenities like MLS, Busch, Enterprise.  The old Sportman's Park was a prime example how we should be incentivizing these mega projects.  They needn't hold that humungous swatch of Downtown hostage for 30-40 years.  Rebuild the neighborhood fabric.

That's what people don't get.  The buildings would be rehabbed.  There's an MLS stadium going in.  Downtown/DTW already has a lot of momentum, albeit slowed from Covid.  They're not looking at the buildings and saying "hmm, yeah, no way would a pub and a few apartments work there."  It's just a sad waste and a method to control their investment and all of the commerce adjacent.  And it's a slippery slope.  What else could they acquire in the immediate area, bulldoze it for more parking?

Sounds like folks are just gonna drive in, pay $10 for their 'District' Bud Light, and drive home.  It's the same as Enterprise.  There's little to no semblance of authentic neighborhood around any of them because we've prioritized parking over people and places.  I guess some of us would prefer to hold our city development to a higher standard of authenticity, and less like an amusement park for transients, tourists, and suburbanites who want to play city.  There's nothing wrong with living in the suburbs, obviously.  But when we're tooling Downtown to make it as clean, hospitable, and convenient for people who can't accept changing for the future, you're robbing the area of what it could be.  As it stands now, from Tucker to Grand just feels like blocks and blocks of randomly interrupted development patterns and entities.  A form based code could do a lot.  And a vision driven by city leadership and not the BoA playing petty fortunes with aldermanic courtesy and chipping at the subsidy block.  It's like a drunk logged into your Sim City saved game and started adding random amenities and institutions instead of developing from a core principle.

Would love to see an #STLMade restaurant in an #STLMade CITY building on 1900 Olive

Here it is. Don't shoot the messenger.

From Twitter...

Denis Beganovic
@beganovic2021
11:55 AM · Sep 28, 2020

Demolition fence is up around the 1900 Olive block. Looks like they plan to have the job done in 2 weeks.
@NEXTSTL

We know. There's a whole thread about it
1900-olive-t11939-s200.html#p327860

quincunx wrote: ↑

Sep 28, 2020

We know. There's a whole thread about it
1900-olive-t11939-s200.html#p327860

I saw that too, but since I posted in this thread I continued the message here.  Thanks, though.  Have a great day!

frequentflyer wrote: ↑

Sep 27, 2020

urbanitas wrote: ↑

Sep 27, 2020

frequentflyer wrote: ↑

Sep 27, 2020

Well, as I said, I knew my comments wouldn't be liked by some people.    I will agree, however, that parking garages hold the least architectural or aesthetic value.  I just don't see how nondescript buildings - that have been abandoned for years  - can be much more appealing.

It needs some TLC, no doubt, but "nondescript"? Really?

And of the 5 or 6 buildings on this block, only this one, 1900 Olive, was vacant. But that's only been since the salon moved out some time in 2015. None of them are abandoned, unless by "abandoned" you meant, "it doesn't have a Starbucks in it"...?

I really don't understand the need for your hostile and condescending attitude.  
What's so special about this building? Nothing, really. 

Could it be rehabbed?  Maybe - assuming you'd find someone to make the investment.  If so, then maybe your Starbucks would lease space in the building.  

Is a parking garage/lot the ideal alternative?  No, but that's what the new ownership groups feels they need to improve/protect their investment.

Besides, what you or I, or anyone else, thinks/wants/hopes is irrelevant.  The MLS ownership group chose to pony up the money for the team, the stadium, and some of the surrounding space.  They're the ones who are writing the checks, so what they want is what's going to happen.  The rest of us can choose to support or not support their efforts.

You think that was hostile? Oh boy...and that wasn't condescension, it was derision, but that is the only response to rationalizations and fabricated justifications.

The whole premise of your argument is that these "abandoned" buildings are somehow going to prevent the CITY owners from building the soccer stadium and "District" that they want, because, "This whole area needs new life breathed into it." You assume what this "District" is going to look like, even though they have never bothered to explain or share their "vision". And you just assume that because these buildings haven't already been renovated and filled with fro-yo cafes, coffee chains, yoga studios, etc., that they won't ever be...even with a brand new $100 million+ Union Station renovation and $250 million stadium and entertainment center opening just a couple blocks away...?

The only conclusion one can draw from your argument is that you think that "Soccer District" and "old, unrenovated buildings" are somehow mutually exclusive, so in order to have the former, all of the latter must come down. That argument deserves derision, especially on an urban development forum...

urbanitas wrote: ↑

Oct 02, 2020

There's a lot of updated information on the stadium and "south of Market area" construction in the latest MLS Stadium Bid Package Addenda:

• The updated project schedule indicates the team will have control of the Anthem parking lot by Nov. 1, with demolition and excavation beginning on 11/4 and completed by 12/19

• The Market Street viaduct will be closed and demolished beginning Jan. 3, and a new at-grade street constructed by March 4

• There will be another small surface parking lot built on the west side of the stadium between the new 22nd St. and the Pear Tree Inn garage

• The large team HQ building across Market St. from the stadium has gone away, and has been replaced by a much smaller ~5,000 sf "Pavilion" and a small surface parking lot

• There are to be three full-size soccer pitches south of Market, two N-S oriented natural turf pitches north of Clark Ave., and an E-W oriented artificial turf pitch, between Clark and the new westbound I-64 off ramp

• The training facility and another surface parking lot will be south of the Fairfield Inn and the service tunnel access drive

• All of the pitches, facilities and parking lots will be surrounded by 8' tall "no-climb" security fences or fences on top of retaining walls (including the parking lot along Market), everywhere except where the new buildings meet the sidewalk at the two intersections

There's more, but that's all I can recall atm...

Such exciting developments. 

Rats. I was looking forward to a sizable new office building on Market.

framer wrote: ↑

Oct 02, 2020

Rats. I was looking forward to a sizable new office building on Market.

The silver lining in all of this (if there is one) is that, other than the cost of the pitches, the limited infrastructure investment south of Market will be much less likely to preclude or conflict with future development...

wabash wrote: ↑

Oct 02, 2020

urbanitas wrote: ↑

Oct 02, 2020

There's a lot of updated information on the stadium and "south of Market area" construction in the latest MLS Stadium Bid Package Addenda:

• The updated project schedule indicates the team will have control of the Anthem parking lot by Nov. 1, with demolition and excavation beginning on 11/4 and completed by 12/19

• The Market Street viaduct will be closed and demolished beginning Jan. 3, and a new at-grade street constructed by March 4

• There will be another small surface parking lot built on the west side of the stadium between the new 22nd St. and the Pear Tree Inn garage

• The large team HQ building across Market St. from the stadium has gone away, and has been replaced by a much smaller ~5,000 sf "Pavilion" and a small surface parking lot

• There are to be three full-size soccer pitches south of Market, two N-S oriented natural turf pitches north of Clark Ave., and an E-W oriented artificial turf pitch, between Clark and the new westbound I-64 off ramp

• The training facility and another surface parking lot will be south of the Fairfield Inn and the service tunnel access drive

• All of the pitches, facilities and parking lots will be surrounded by 8' tall "no-climb" security fences or fences on top of retaining walls (including the parking lot along Market), everywhere except where the new buildings meet the sidewalk at the two intersections

There's more, but that's all I can recall atm...

Such exciting developments. 

You beat me to it.  In summary, less building, more parking.  I think three pitches might be overkill, but maybe in the future (say...20 years) the third one can be built on or something.  You think we'll get lucky and get barbed wire on the fence, too?

With the HQ building being downsized, where is the team HQ going to be now? 

dmelsh wrote: ↑

Oct 02, 2020

With the HQ building being downsized, where is the team HQ going to be now? 

Clayton?

Eh, but I'd guess they became enamored with BPV's Pennant Building at some point, so maybe, eventually, they will have a couple of stories of office space perched on top of their 10-story parking garage at 1900 Olive...just high enough to peer down into their new stadium...

Well if the FBI is going to NGA.....

New CITY SC headquarters rendering:


Ласточкино Гнездо Мыс Ай-Тодор, Крым. 2
Czar2013 / CC BY-SA (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0)

I'm not sure how I feel about flooding 20th St., but the faux stone parking garage screen is amazing!