Not sure why it doesn't already, but isn't it time this has it's own thread? Hopefully, a moderator can move the last several pages of the "MLS in STL" thread here.
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Chouteau Greenway did a photo with a rendering of one of the lots just off of Market I don't think its Aloe Plaza, but I'd bet it would happen in conjunction with MLS.
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Just a random observation, and point for architecture buffs like me:
This stadium design is actually quite retro, is reminiscent of the International Style of the 50s and 60s, and of one architect in particular, Edward Durell Stone, the architect of the Kennedy Center (middle), the US Embassy to India (bottom), and...Busch Stadium II, among many others.
Yep. I immediately thought of the Kennedy Center, but missed the US Embassy.
As always, details and materials will make or break it, but this really is a classy design.
As always, details and materials will make or break it, but this really is a classy design.
There are two huge benefits to this very large (and apparently controversial), 31 acre stadium and training facility footprint in downtown, which haven't really been highlighted:
1) A dozen blocks or more of city streetscape will be cleaned up in the next few years, even without any ancillary "district" development. That means resurfaced or entirely new streets, crosswalks, signals, street trees, landscaping, lighting, sidewalks, parking meters, and so on. Also, what is currently, essentially a depressing, pedestrian-inhospitable highway overpass along Market Street, will become something indistinguishable from any other downtown street (which hopefully becomes a precedent for similar situations in the city along Grand, Kingshighway, Compton, etc.).
And there will be a strong impetus and financial incentive for all of the surrounding property owners to clean up, renovate, or upgrade their adjacent properties, where there was zero incentive before. Looking at you Drury, with your two large hotel / garage footprints. Looking at you Bricklayers' Union (Maggie O's building) and Police Retirement Assoc. Looking at you LHM. And looking at you, Station Plaza, BC/BS Anthem building, and all of the other property owners along Olive and 20th Streets.
2) If demand for the MLS and St. Louis team grows as much as many believe, the St. Louis team owners may very well be looking at building a new, larger capacity stadium in just two decades (look at Columbus Crew). With this large soccer complex footprint entirely owned by the team, they have reserved the option to build a new stadium South of Market in the future (yes, they will need to acquire additional property east of 21st St., but they have some time to sort that out).
This fact should encourage the team owners and other developers to invest more in their "District" and the surrounding neighborhood as they can be confident that whatever activity is generated by the MLS stadium will be a permanent feature within it. If you doubt that the owners are thinking this far ahead, look very closely at the southern "flex space" along Market. It looks very much to me as though that portion of the stadium is being designed to be a stand-alone building at some point in the future...
1) A dozen blocks or more of city streetscape will be cleaned up in the next few years, even without any ancillary "district" development. That means resurfaced or entirely new streets, crosswalks, signals, street trees, landscaping, lighting, sidewalks, parking meters, and so on. Also, what is currently, essentially a depressing, pedestrian-inhospitable highway overpass along Market Street, will become something indistinguishable from any other downtown street (which hopefully becomes a precedent for similar situations in the city along Grand, Kingshighway, Compton, etc.).
And there will be a strong impetus and financial incentive for all of the surrounding property owners to clean up, renovate, or upgrade their adjacent properties, where there was zero incentive before. Looking at you Drury, with your two large hotel / garage footprints. Looking at you Bricklayers' Union (Maggie O's building) and Police Retirement Assoc. Looking at you LHM. And looking at you, Station Plaza, BC/BS Anthem building, and all of the other property owners along Olive and 20th Streets.
2) If demand for the MLS and St. Louis team grows as much as many believe, the St. Louis team owners may very well be looking at building a new, larger capacity stadium in just two decades (look at Columbus Crew). With this large soccer complex footprint entirely owned by the team, they have reserved the option to build a new stadium South of Market in the future (yes, they will need to acquire additional property east of 21st St., but they have some time to sort that out).
This fact should encourage the team owners and other developers to invest more in their "District" and the surrounding neighborhood as they can be confident that whatever activity is generated by the MLS stadium will be a permanent feature within it. If you doubt that the owners are thinking this far ahead, look very closely at the southern "flex space" along Market. It looks very much to me as though that portion of the stadium is being designed to be a stand-alone building at some point in the future...
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I kinda doubt they would scrap this stadium for a new one within 20 years, or even 30 for that matter. MAPFRE Stadium only costed $28.5 million to build, and quite frankly, they got what they paid for (which is why they have to build a new one only 20 years later). I can definitely see them expanding the seating in the stadium to 25,000 though like they stated. I can also see in ~25 years the entire stadium getting a facelift, and in doing so, maybe expand the stadium itself to hold 30,000+ depending on the popularity by then.
FWIW, I can see the owners replacing the canopy in the future, and in doing so, add more height to the stadium by adding a third tier with ~10,000 more seats. Just by looking at these renderings, it looks like it could be doable. They may have to change the saying to "every seat within 200 feet of the pitch".
It's also pretty similar to one of my favorite pieces of architecture on this planet, Matmut Atlantique by Herzon & de Meuron in Bordeaux. I'm not opposed to the similarities.
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I think it looks a ton like the Art Institute of Chicago's modern wing.
I am not quite sure why they are showing that huge crosswalk and median at 21st St., instead of 20th. They are going to have to have signals at 20th and 22nd, and will have to add yet another signal to put a crosswalk here, so....? And why would so many people be crossing Market there anyway?BuilditSTL wrote:
Hopefully they put in those pedestrian median barriers at the pedestrian island like they have at West Pine and Grand. I feel much safer walking across Grand now that they've installed those.
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I would guess they're putting it there since their parking garage and team offices will be between 21st and 22nd. Likely one of the main stadium entrances will be right there as well.urbanitas wrote: ↑Nov 05, 2019I am not quite sure why they are showing that huge crosswalk and median at 21st St., instead of 20th. They are going to have to have signals at 20th and 22nd, and will have to add yet another signal to put a crosswalk here, so....? And why would so many people be crossing Market there anyway?
People would end up crossing midblock anyways. Might as well give walking across Market a guise of safety.
There are entrances at each corner, but I think the article suggested the "main" stadium entrance is off of the plaza on the east side.symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Nov 05, 2019I would guess they're putting it there since their parking garage and team offices will be between 21st and 22nd. Likely one of the main stadium entrances will be right there as well.urbanitas wrote: ↑Nov 05, 2019I am not quite sure why they are showing that huge crosswalk and median at 21st St., instead of 20th. They are going to have to have signals at 20th and 22nd, and will have to add yet another signal to put a crosswalk here, so....? And why would so many people be crossing Market there anyway?
The main stadium concourse should be well below Market St. since the pitch will be 40' below grade. And the lower levels of the team HQ building and parking garage, on the south side of the street, should be around 20' below Market. In between the two is a space which one could drive a couple dozen semis through at the same time. They could build it all as essentially one contiguous building, so one could walk directly from one side of Market to the other without climbing any stairs or even feeling like you have left the "stadium". Then provide a "Union Station" exit, and ramp up right next to Union Station's budding little carnival / pier space...
Yes you are right, the rendering shows entrances directly into the garage from 21st Street, but I doubt that is accurate. I looked at the street surface elevations in this area, and unfortunately, the garage will be very visible from the south end at the very least, and probably partially visible on the east side. The practice field surface will probably be above 21st Street, but I doubt they would want it to be 15'+ above as it is in the rendering.rbb wrote:So a few things I spotted from the updated renderings.
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The practice fields are elevated - they're not at street level:
-RBB
I did not realize it was that much of a slope, but there is a 30' elevation drop between 22nd and 21st Streets along what will be the south elevation of the garage, along the restored Clark Avenue, so it's pretty much impossible to put the entire garage below grade. The rendering makes it look like the practice field surface is more or less level with 22nd Street and the Fairfield Inn property though, and I can't imagine any reason why they would do that.
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There's a reason I said "one of" the main entrances. You're tunnel idea is an attractive one, and maybe they'll build something like that, but it would be an expensive proposition as you'd have to move a lot of utilities and probably close Market. I doubt they build anything they want the public walking through there, thus the crossing. My best guess, anyway.urbanitas wrote: ↑Nov 07, 2019There are entrances at each corner, but I think the article suggested the "main" stadium entrance is off of the plaza on the east side.
The main stadium concourse should be well below Market St. since the pitch will be 40' below grade. And the lower levels of the team HQ building and parking garage, on the south side of the street, should be around 20' below Market. In between the two is a space which one could drive a couple dozen semis through at the same time. They could build it all as essentially one contiguous building, so one could walk directly from one side of Market to the other without climbing any stairs or even feeling like you have left the "stadium". Then provide a "Union Station" exit, and ramp up right next to Union Station's budding little carnival / pier space...
FWIW, I contacted the Gateway Foundation and pointed out some of the plazas surrounding the new stadium as good sites for public sculpture. They assured me that the sites are "on their radar".
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^^I would agree that tunneling under Market would seem to be an expensive prospect except there is already a large underpass there for the ramps from Pine to 64 and from 64 to 20th and Chestnut. At the very least that would seem to indicate that utilities would not be an issue.
Wonder why they did not include a view looking East? I think this is the better backdrop with the Arch and Union Station. (pardon my inept graphic skills but took the rendering and flipped it and then overlayed on Google Map 3D view of St. Louis looking East)
Well don't I feel like a horse's @$$. Thanks very much. Much better view in my opinion.
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Valid point. Completely spaced on that one.Black02AltimaSE wrote: ↑Nov 07, 2019^^I would agree that tunneling under Market would seem to be an expensive prospect except there is already a large underpass there for the ramps from Pine to 64 and from 64 to 20th and Chestnut. At the very least that would seem to indicate that utilities would not be an issue.
Maybe it was addressed elsewhere, but where will all that police parking be going, the big two-block long lot with all the police cars/swat vehicles, etc.? Hopefully relocated near a different police station and not downtown near HQ.
^ Obviously the hope is that all those empty lots surrounding the stadium site will eventually fill in with new development, but until they do, they'll probably be covered. There is quite a bit of surface parking nearby. Or hopefully moving it a little out of the way, though I could see wanting it close to HQ.
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It's not really a tunnel, and little excavation would be required, so I don't know what utilities would have to be moved, other than maybe some stormwater collection pipes? And why would they have to close Market Street...?symphonicpoet wrote: ↑Nov 07, 2019There's a reason I said "one of" the main entrances. You're tunnel idea is an attractive one, and maybe they'll build something like that, but it would be an expensive proposition as you'd have to move a lot of utilities and probably close Market. I doubt they build anything they want the public walking through there, thus the crossing. My best guess, anyway.urbanitas wrote: ↑Nov 07, 2019There are entrances at each corner, but I think the article suggested the "main" stadium entrance is off of the plaza on the east side.
The main stadium concourse should be well below Market St. since the pitch will be 40' below grade. And the lower levels of the team HQ building and parking garage, on the south side of the street, should be around 20' below Market. In between the two is a space which one could drive a couple dozen semis through at the same time. They could build it all as essentially one contiguous building, so one could walk directly from one side of Market to the other without climbing any stairs or even feeling like you have left the "stadium". Then provide a "Union Station" exit, and ramp up right next to Union Station's budding little carnival / pier space...
And is having fans essentially walk in the stadium for an extra couple hundred feet, and come up on the south side of Market, versus walking across the street, really going to make much of a difference in street activity? Even if it does, it seems preferable to having fans just get in their cars and drive back to the burbs after the game...
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^I don't use that exit much, so I quite forgot it went under Market. I was assuming you'd have to dig a tunnel to get it from one side to the other. BlackAltisima pointed out the bridge and cleared me up. Mea culpa.