I wouldn't push too hard - its always easier to catch bees with honey. If you piss him off too much, he could just sell to someone else to block you from gaining ownership. Also, based upon my own research, unless the state completely rebuilds the highway again they won't add sound walls. Not to mention there isn't any space for them to add walls in this area / they'd have to be unrealistically high to be effective. https://www.modot.org/sites/default/fil ... ochure.pdf
There's a lot of things going on, but we're confident he is willing to work with us on selling the buildings. Because either he'd sell them or he'd demolish them for parking. It's one or the other. And if the buildings come down under his ownership, he'll really hear it. So... yea. We're being careful with it.Laife Fulk wrote: ↑Sep 23, 2020I wouldn't push too hard - its always easier to catch bees with honey. If you piss him off too much, he could just sell to someone else to block you from gaining ownership. Also, based upon my own research, unless the state completely rebuilds the highway again they won't add sound walls. Not to mention there isn't any space for them to add walls in this area / they'd have to be unrealistically high to be effective. https://www.modot.org/sites/default/fil ... ochure.pdf
As for the highway sound walls, thanks for sharing. I'll look at alternatives to make the outdoor beer garden work because right now, I don't think it's too pleasant to be out in the back and hear the trucks making that banging noise on the highway among other things. Maybe I'll go down there and get the decibel readings and average them up then compare to what would be tolerable in a situation like this (for an outdoor space).
I know that the Chouteau's Landing redevelopment plans includes lots of outdoor spaces for people to hang out on and that portion has the same problems as 4th and Broadway (not to mention the train bridges)
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Honestly, the best solution to reducing interstate noise in and around this area is adding more trees wherever possible. With all of the open parking lots, there's nothing to act as a natural barrier.
^^ There are sound deadening “walls” that can be mounted on median walls and Jersey barriers that would easily work here. You wouldn’t need to build a sound wall from the ground up. The viaduct space beneath could remain open for people to pass underneath.
See these two examples over the 670 trench in KC. These are city streets over a highway, so anything alongside 55 would probably have to be a bit taller. But I bet it could be done. Fill it with panels like this first one here and it would probably deaden the sound and add a nice look too. This is Wyandotte Street.
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Main Street. I think this one is kind of ugly...but the clear panels work as intended:
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See if you could get St. Mary's of Victories to back something like that...one on the other side would help quiet the sound from the freeway during masses. I've been to several services in there...it can be loud.
See these two examples over the 670 trench in KC. These are city streets over a highway, so anything alongside 55 would probably have to be a bit taller. But I bet it could be done. Fill it with panels like this first one here and it would probably deaden the sound and add a nice look too. This is Wyandotte Street.
Main Street. I think this one is kind of ugly...but the clear panels work as intended:
See if you could get St. Mary's of Victories to back something like that...one on the other side would help quiet the sound from the freeway during masses. I've been to several services in there...it can be loud.
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Good luck getting the MoDOT to pay for that or to even agree to go against their current policies regarding when they'll even consider new sound walls. This isn't a matter of there being some innovative solution - it's just the downside of having property next to an aging interstate.
^ Well I'm not planning on presenting it to MoDOT lol. Just an idea for Chris and his team to consider.
And MoDOT has shown themselves to work with the community on various projects. If a developer has a plan and would pay for the required sound study and their installation, I don't see why MoDOT would slam the door in their face.
And MoDOT has shown themselves to work with the community on various projects. If a developer has a plan and would pay for the required sound study and their installation, I don't see why MoDOT would slam the door in their face.
I could totally see this whole area from Downtown to Soulard resembling Nashville's Broadway strip in another ten years.
That's sort of the idea, but we can do it better. Forget the touristy stuff, let's make it local but not entirely focused on live music. Sure, live music can be a foundation, but we want some great food down there too. Add in some Airbnbs, apartments, and creative office space and I think that's a winner. Include some festivals too that feature merchants, food trucks and other things.framer wrote: ↑Sep 23, 2020I could totally see this whole area from Downtown to Soulard resembling Nashville's Broadway strip in another ten years.
I personally want to create a Christmas Market.
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STL needs about 50 more passionate small ops like ya'll. Fighting the good fight.
Hey, I am 100000% rooting for this development - I respect and admire Chris' passion! -- but a real question for the group.
If this stretch blossoms as a bigger entertainment district, what happens to The Grove, BPV, Soulard, CWE, etc. There's only so many native/tourist entertainment $$ to go around, yes?
If this stretch blossoms as a bigger entertainment district, what happens to The Grove, BPV, Soulard, CWE, etc. There's only so many native/tourist entertainment $$ to go around, yes?
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STL has been playing the entertainment district shell game since Gaslight Square in the 60s. I would argue that it's been a good way to steer development to new neighborhoods and the areas left behind by the bar crowds are often better off than before.
Anything here that helps bridge the gap between downtown and Soulard is a win in my book. Needs to be a bigger civic priority IMO.
Anything here that helps bridge the gap between downtown and Soulard is a win in my book. Needs to be a bigger civic priority IMO.
We have millions of people in the region. People just need to feel safe to live and visit Downtown. Which is largely is safe and very enjoyable. But this stretch has been an insult to Downtown for decades.
People go to those districts because they feel safe. I had a friend run over on Broadway by a speeding motorist several years ago. You don't get the sprint across the street feel in any of those areas. That's of course only one piece of the puzzle. But saving this strip and, hopefully, infill, will really bolster the area. So many people see this as their entrypoint to Downtown. It's the same as Bottle District. Need to narrow the streets, get rid of the nonsense, and fill in the parking lots.
Thanks for all the legwork. You're really doing what we all wish we could be doing. Lord knows if I had money, I know where it would be going. Just imagine 4th and broadway getting infill, rehabs, and street work, and becoming an authentic home grown version of BPV. Leave Shark Bar and the rest of the money traps to the tourists.
People go to those districts because they feel safe. I had a friend run over on Broadway by a speeding motorist several years ago. You don't get the sprint across the street feel in any of those areas. That's of course only one piece of the puzzle. But saving this strip and, hopefully, infill, will really bolster the area. So many people see this as their entrypoint to Downtown. It's the same as Bottle District. Need to narrow the streets, get rid of the nonsense, and fill in the parking lots.
Thanks for all the legwork. You're really doing what we all wish we could be doing. Lord knows if I had money, I know where it would be going. Just imagine 4th and broadway getting infill, rehabs, and street work, and becoming an authentic home grown version of BPV. Leave Shark Bar and the rest of the money traps to the tourists.
Here, here! Well said.bwcrow1s wrote: ↑Sep 23, 2020We have millions of people in the region. People just need to feel safe to live and visit Downtown. Which is largely is safe and very enjoyable. But this stretch has been an insult to Downtown for decades.
People go to those districts because they feel safe. I had a friend run over on Broadway by a speeding motorist several years ago. You don't get the sprint across the street feel in any of those areas. That's of course only one piece of the puzzle. But saving this strip and, hopefully, infill, will really bolster the area. So many people see this as their entrypoint to Downtown. It's the same as Bottle District. Need to narrow the streets, get rid of the nonsense, and fill in the parking lots.
Thanks for all the legwork. You're really doing what we all wish we could be doing. Lord knows if I had money, I know where it would be going. Just imagine 4th and broadway getting infill, rehabs, and street work, and becoming an authentic home grown version of BPV. Leave Shark Bar and the rest of the money traps to the tourists.
I personally believe a revitalized 4th/Broadway strip (and Chouteau's landing to a larger extent) would compliment places like Soulard and BPV instead of harm them (I really don't think the majority of the BPV type crowd is hanging out in the Grove and CWE anyway). I could see people walking between downtown and Soulard a lot more if the corridor didn't look so run down, didn't have such overly wide streets, was a pleasant walk and had a lot more activity. Instead of people just bouncing into BPV and heading back home after the game.
When I visit my friends who live in Denver, we'll walk 8 to 10 miles a day between downtown (where they live) and different neighborhoods that are adjacent to it. No reason we couldn't facilitate that here in areas where we can (technically it can be done now). It's 1.03 miles along Broadway from Clark near BPV to Carroll near the Soulard Market.
Creating better and more urban connections between downtown the more walkable parts of North and South City would do much more for downtown than whatever plan or study they just came out with IMHO.
+1GoHarvOrGoHome wrote: ↑Sep 23, 2020STL needs about 50 more passionate small ops like ya'll. Fighting the good fight.
Good luck with this Chris, hope things work out.
I don't think The Grove, Loop, CWE, Cherokee or any other entertainment district outside of Downtown would be effected. It's really the Wash Ave/Laclede's Landing axis that would continue to be marginalized by a contiguous Soulard-to-BPV entertainment corridor. Between Busch Stadium, The AB Brewery, Four Hands, Soulard Market, Bogart's and the live music venues (BB's, Old Rock House, Broadway Oyster) it's a really rich vein of popular attractions for everyone from families with young kids to bachelor/ette parties.soulardx wrote: ↑Sep 23, 2020Hey, I am 100000% rooting for this development - I respect and admire Chris' passion! -- but a real question for the group.
If this stretch blossoms as a bigger entertainment district, what happens to The Grove, BPV, Soulard, CWE, etc. There's only so many native/tourist entertainment $$ to go around, yes?
Also, I think the continued emergence of Airbnb as a mainstream leisure travel lodging option will benefit Soulard much more than Downtown.
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It's exciting to think about the possibilities this area holds. Broadway and 7th Street already have some solid assets - rehab and infill would do would do wonders for connectivity.sc4mayor wrote: ↑Sep 23, 2020Here, here! Well said.bwcrow1s wrote: ↑Sep 23, 2020We have millions of people in the region. People just need to feel safe to live and visit Downtown. Which is largely is safe and very enjoyable. But this stretch has been an insult to Downtown for decades.
People go to those districts because they feel safe. I had a friend run over on Broadway by a speeding motorist several years ago. You don't get the sprint across the street feel in any of those areas. That's of course only one piece of the puzzle. But saving this strip and, hopefully, infill, will really bolster the area. So many people see this as their entrypoint to Downtown. It's the same as Bottle District. Need to narrow the streets, get rid of the nonsense, and fill in the parking lots.
Thanks for all the legwork. You're really doing what we all wish we could be doing. Lord knows if I had money, I know where it would be going. Just imagine 4th and broadway getting infill, rehabs, and street work, and becoming an authentic home grown version of BPV. Leave Shark Bar and the rest of the money traps to the tourists.
I personally believe a revitalized 4th/Broadway strip (and Chouteau's landing to a larger extent) would compliment places like Soulard and BPV instead of harm them (I really don't think the majority of the BPV type crowd is hanging out in the Grove and CWE anyway). I could see people walking between downtown and Soulard a lot more if the corridor didn't look so run down, didn't have such overly wide streets, was a pleasant walk and had a lot more activity. Instead of people just bouncing into BPV and heading back home after the game.
When I visit my friends who live in Denver, we'll walk 8 to 10 miles a day between downtown (where they live) and different neighborhoods that are adjacent to it. No reason we couldn't facilitate that here in areas where we can (technically it can be done now). It's 1.03 miles along Broadway from Clark near BPV to Carroll near the Soulard Market.
Creating better and more urban connections between downtown the more walkable parts of North and South City would do much more for downtown than whatever plan or study they just came out with IMHO.
Agree and you mitigate any of the cannibalization by making each district mixed-use, anchored by a growing base of residents.wabash wrote: ↑Sep 23, 2020I don't think The Grove, Loop, CWE, Cherokee or any other entertainment district outside of Downtown would be effected. It's really the Wash Ave/Laclede's Landing axis that would continue to be marginalized by a contiguous Soulard-to-BPV entertainment corridor. Between Busch Stadium, The AB Brewery, Four Hands, Soulard Market, Bogart's and the live music venues (BB's, Old Rock House, Broadway Oyster) it's a really rich vein of popular attractions for everyone from families with young kids to bachelor/ette parties.soulardx wrote: ↑Sep 23, 2020Hey, I am 100000% rooting for this development - I respect and admire Chris' passion! -- but a real question for the group.
If this stretch blossoms as a bigger entertainment district, what happens to The Grove, BPV, Soulard, CWE, etc. There's only so many native/tourist entertainment $$ to go around, yes?
Also, I think the continued emergence of Airbnb as a mainstream leisure travel lodging option will benefit Soulard much more than Downtown.
Just looking at the situation some, we do not see this area threatening Soulard, BPV, Old Post Office Square, Laclede’s Landing or WashAve. The reason is this: Downtown is becoming much more stable in terms of population and efforts are being made to connect all of the dots and make them all prosperous. The 4th and Broadway/Chouteau’s Landing area will add enough apartments and condos (at build out) that many businesses will have a self-sustaining population really close by. With BPV at build out and 300+ new apartments coming to the north end of Soulard, it further cements the area.soulardx wrote:Hey, I am 100000% rooting for this development - I respect and admire Chris' passion! -- but a real question for the group.
If this stretch blossoms as a bigger entertainment district, what happens to The Grove, BPV, Soulard, CWE, etc. There's only so many native/tourist entertainment $$ to go around, yes?
We’re also going for a natural extension of Soulard and BPV. We don’t want this to be touristy, but they’re welcome to come on down. We want this place to be for and by the locals. We want the retail spaces to be more affordable to give local business owners the chance to have a brick and mortar location for a business. We want this to be the showcase of what St. Louis has to offer in food, entertainment and shopping. This will be a very authentic experience.
So while there are concerns that this could cannibalize the mentioned districts above, we do not see this happening. If anything, this could lead to a very busy area South of Market Street to Soulard. We don’t want to kill WashAve, Lacledes Landing and Old Post Office Square and we won’t.
As for the Grove and CWE, those are pretty strong as-is and are far enough away from this area that it won’t really matter. Besides, the vibe we’re going for is different than what they can offer, and that’s critical.
Did the decibel test thing on my watch today. Sat where my beer garden concept would go for a couple minutes. It's loud, so ideas will have to be considered to try and make the area tolerable to sit outside. That will be a question for landscape architects and people know what they're doing.
This is the lowest, and highest, readings on the decibel thing on my watch. I should note that these readings were taken from what would be the middle of the beer garden, so you get echo from the sound bouncing off of the garage, rear of 744, and side of Nephews/742.
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This is the lowest, and highest, readings on the decibel thing on my watch. I should note that these readings were taken from what would be the middle of the beer garden, so you get echo from the sound bouncing off of the garage, rear of 744, and side of Nephews/742.
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The other day during rush hour, I ate outside at the Ladue Shake Shack, which is probably a comparable distance from 170 as your beer garden site is from 44. It was noisy, but not unbearable, although 44 is probably used by a lot more semis and other large vehicles than 170. I'm guessing any sound-dampening measures you could incorporate would have a big impact.
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I think Laife had the right idea - getting some fast growing trees in this fall would go a long way. You be surprised how well those dampen sound - I used to live off of I170 in Ucity and the highway sound in summer vs winter was pretty mind-blowing.
Also, they make fencing called Green Noise Barriers that could help line the noisy side of your garden - and fits in the whole garden aspect.
Also, they make fencing called Green Noise Barriers that could help line the noisy side of your garden - and fits in the whole garden aspect.
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Chris your next project should just be removing the highway entirely
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Maybe we could all just take a page out of McDonald's playbook and start demolition ourselves. 