I went through the Forum pages and found multiple threads pertaining to Steve Murphy's Chouteau's Landing but nothing truly official. Due to the upcoming announcement of the redevelopment of the area, I thought it was a good idea to start a thread that should've been started way back in 2004/5 when the first hints of the project to my knowledge) started to come out. 

If anyone has any recommendations for what they would like, and hope, to see here, please post them. I am sure the potential developers check this site often. It is possible that they are already thinking ahead, so some of these requests could have been fulfilled, but I have seen no new plans at this time.

You can also post news stories, pictures of the area, and anything that truly relates to this area in this thread, that way it can all stay in one place.

Below are the multiple threads...
Historic 4th Street on Chouteau's Landing: historic-fourth-street-at-chouteau-s-landing-t315.html
Powell Square (double): powell-square-t7181.html
Powell Square - Chouteau's Landing Arts Center: powell-square-chouteau-s-landing-arts-center-t444.html
Idea for Chouteau's Landing: idea-for-chouteau-s-landing-t9397.html

If I am able to, I will share some updates about where the project is at prior to the official announcement, although those chances are slim to non-existent. 

I'd like to see a better connection to the arch grounds and downtown via improving sidewalks (ex. widening them and replacing existing ones) and adding dedicated bike lanes. Create a street wall along 4th street with lots of street-level retail for shops and restaurants. Build Brooklyn-Esque townhomes on the less-traveled streets to add different types of housing to the area. The existing buildings in the landing need a lot of ground-level retail too: look to SOHO in New York as an example/ model. Light the area up well: add some neon blade signs, historic streetlights, and maybe some cool lighting above the streets like on Washington Ave. Mix in a glassy thin midrise or two (15 stories would be good), construct several lowrise residential buildings like MOFO on Morganford and maybe add a CVS or Walgreens to one of the retail spaces. This is going to be a huge project and you will be building basically from the ground up. That being said, do it right. This area has the potential to change the city's core if done right. Try not to cut corners as much as possible because if so we will end up with a tacky/ mediocre district like the streets of St. Charles and that type of development needs to stay in the exurbs. You really don't need too much height building-wise to make an explosive neighborhood due to some contrary belief. Savannah, Georgia is a perfect example of this if you want to do some research. I hope this project lives up to its vast potential, I know it can. 

Any attempt to try to make this another entertainment district should be shot down immediately.  I would love to see a rooftop bar and restaurant or two here, but the priorities should be residential, residential, and a lot of residential too.  Take a page from Michael Hamburg.  Do one building at a time.  Fill it up, and then move on to the next.  The retail will come later when the buildings start filling up.

It would also be great to make this an artist loft and gallery district, as has been proposed for the last three decades now, but these things by themselves won't pay for renovation. 

urbanitas wrote:Any attempt to try to make this another entertainment district  should be shot down immediately.  It should be residential, residential, and some residential too.

From what I remember seeing and hearing, and this is from several months ago, this was supposed to be residential focused with some hospitality and shops thrown in for good measure. They don’t want it to be specifically entertainment based.

^The streets, buildings, and lots have to be cleaned up first, like Steelcote.  I don't know how else you do that but with residential development, unless someone is willing to invest tens of millions of dollars in the whole neighborhood upfront with no guarantee of a return.  I could see a hotel working on 4th Street somewhere, but that isn't going to do much for the area to the east.

urbanitas wrote:^The streets, buildings, and lots have to be cleaned up first, like Steelcote.  I don't know how else you do that but with residential development, unless someone is willing to invest tens of millions of dollars in the whole neighborhood upfront with no guarantee of a return.  I could see a hotel working on 4th Street somewhere, but that isn't going to do much for the area to the east.

It will be tricky, but I think it will be done right. The first order of business is to clean the area up. As for how the construction phase will work, this could be phased and most likely will be.

I don’t believe 4th Street is part of the latest plans. For now, we will have another historic redevelopment at 754 South 4th, which is early on in the process. Besides this, nothing else on 4th.

How is Crunden-Martin holding up?  My commute no longer takes me past it every day.

Most of my daydreaming is focused on 4th street a Broadway as i tend to think thats the way you get the critical mass needed to get a big developemnt on Chouteaus Landing.

Would like to see Still630 move across the street to the historic warehouse next to Rally's.  Then get a 5 story hotel built on that lot.  I think something like a Home2Suites or Aloft makes sense.  Something with that trendy euro flavor.

Would like to see a mid size music venue go in on the Whitecastle site.  Something to that could be the beating heart of a music oriented district.

Would like to see a iconic sculpture on the little triangular section north of Chouteau and between 4th and Broadway, so that people entering downtown from that direction would see it as they pass under the trestle.  My first choice would be a oversized statue of Tina Turner as she is a musical icon which would fit the image of 4th a broad with a St. Louis Background, and a Representative of several underrepresented demographics.

While i am at it it would be cool to see Eat Rite physically moved to the parcel south of the MacArthur north of Still630.  There is no logical reason to move something like Eat Rite but it is an icon of St. Louis and moving it would enable new construction on its current parcel.  I think that parcel at 4th and Chouteau could be as iconic.

In Chouteau's Landing I think Mostly Residential Makes sense if you want to do it near term.  Its such a blank slate it could kind of be anything, but short of a major corporate interest residential seems the obvious way to go.  Its just too isolated.  Some first floor retail sure, but i don't think they should plan on it being a retail destination as it is so separated from the rest of downtown.  I think if possible instead let it be a place people live somewhat quietly but near to downtown... Build close to the flood wall for water views.

I have been told to forget it but re-purposing the railroad trestle to pedestrian would be hugely helpful to develop it as a district as it provides natural access to the arch grounds and the 4th & Broadway district.

Some of those small patches north of the MacArthur bridge are very difficult to imagine being built on due to size.  They could be pocket parks, but i would like to see the STL Carriage Co operate out of the historic structure in Chouteau's Landing on the south side of Lombard that houses the Barn Church.  The carriage co horse could roam on the small parcels north of the bridge which would be a neat feature for the district and could grow into a mini tourist attraction with a little push.  Also moving carriage co has the added benefit of expanding the land available to kick start the Chouteau's Lake district.  Win win.

I know the arch grounds have already been re-done but i still think a Bison paddock on the south end would be a nice draw to bring more people to the south side of the memorial and thus naturally interact with the district.  Also ideally they would move the arch ground maintenance facility to one of the nearly unusable parcel under the highway. so that the access to memorial is more open for pedestrians from Chouteau's Landing.

Oh a removing the elevated lanes would be a good idea too.

You asked...

STLEnginerd, all are good ideas. Moving the Distillery isn’t that bad of an idea considering the old Ice House is For Sale. BP and White Castle need to go. Moving Eat Rite would be tricky but is doable. A sculpture and small fountain would be good for that wedge lot.

You are right about 4th and Broadway needing to be developed before Chouteau’s Landing can be dealt with. Hopefully the developers address 4th and Broadway adequately.

STLEnginerd wrote: ↑

Oct 28, 2019

debaliviere wrote: ↑

Oct 28, 2019

How is Crunden-Martin holding up?  My commute no longer takes me past it every day.

It seems amazing to me they have allowed the fire damaged building to stand.  Its physically connected to the larger building by the multistory walkway and if it collapsed it would be a major issue.  Not sure what they dis to make sure there was no chance of a collapse and i hope they save it but the fact its gone this long in this condition is amazing.

Funny, I was just looking at / researching these buildings recently.  This situation is ridiculous.  I can't believe this has gone under the radar for so long, and that the city hasn't demolished, or even so much as fenced off this building, a long time ago.  

The fire-damaged building is Crunden-Martin No. 5.  The LRA owns it.  The fire was almost 8 years ago now, and sometime in 2016-2017, the 1-story brick mechanical structure on the roof collapsed onto the lot to the north in a windstorm, crushing a cargo container and some equipment.  The entire roof and most of the top two floors have collapsed onto the floors below.  You can see sky through some of the 3rd floor windows.  There is a 2nd Floor window on the east side of the building that appears to have been pushed outward by a pile of debris.  So, most of this building has been completely exposed to the elements for several years, and I don't see any evidence of any attempt to stabilize the building. 

This building is in much worse condition than Cupples 7 or Powell Square ever were, and the city was itching to tear those down as "public hazards".  I am amazed the city didn't include this building in their demolition spree.  I'd guess that multistory walkway between the buildings is probably the only reason this building is still standing. 

Unrelated, but there is a really cool building at 1709 Locust where you can also see straight through to the sky. 

I hope they can save all of these buildings. 

Regarding the grassy lot where the Distillery is, it would be great if plans similar to this is proposed. These plans are from Chivvis' plans for the area. Parking under the highway and buildings up to 4th Street. It also shows a building at 4th and Chouteau. 

chaifetz10 wrote:I LOVE this plan.  It's not aiming to create another "entertainment" district or promising some unrealistic massive skyscraper.  That said, I don't think that all of these retail needs to be included and anticipate some of these to become more row houses, but even getting people down there and making this a neighborhood and not just a island is key.

A neighborhood of row houses (modern or historic i dont care) with just a bit of additional retail would do wonders for downtown.

Same for infill in downtown west/midtown. 2-3 story rowhouses would go a long way in recreating the urbanity we destroyed all those years ago.


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chaifetz10 wrote: ↑

Oct 28, 2019

I LOVE this plan.  It's not aiming to create another "entertainment" district or promising some unrealistic massive skyscraper.  That said, I don't think that all of these retail needs to be included and anticipate some of these to become more row houses, but even getting people down there and making this a neighborhood and not just a island is key.

If you are talking about the renderings I shared, those are from 2007. The newest plans are significantly different and I am unsure if the newest plans will address 4th and Broadway.

KansasCitian wrote: ↑

Oct 28, 2019

Unrelated, but there is a really cool building at 1709 Locust where you can also see straight through to the sky. 

I hope they can save all of these buildings. 

Ya, I know which building you mean.  It's 1711 Locust, across the street from the Butler Brothers building.  I love that building.  You are just seeing sky through the broken skylights though, the roof is still intact, for now.  Koplar Properties owns it, by the way...

urbanitas wrote: ↑

Oct 29, 2019

KansasCitian wrote: ↑

Oct 28, 2019

Unrelated, but there is a really cool building at 1709 Locust where you can also see straight through to the sky. 

I hope they can save all of these buildings. 

Ya, I know which building you mean.  It's 1711 Locust, across the street from the Butler Brothers building.  I love that building.  You are just seeing sky through the broken skylights though, the roof is still intact, for now.  Koplar Properties owns it, by the way...

Sent them several upset emails about it over the years.  Do something or move aside, please.  I know one person's complaining won't do much, but really wish something would happen with it.
Anways, I digress.  I do agree that Chouteau's needs to be bolstered with residential.  But I think the key is getting 4th St. some more commercial infill to make it attractive for residents and clean up the general perception of vacancy.  A small market would be great.  There is already a pretty strong bar scene in the immediate area north of Chouteau.  I also think that to capitalize on the river views, something needs to be done to the flood wall.  Or improve accessibility points.

^ Couldn't hurt, but in Chris' defense, the first 5 words of his post were "Other older plans and renderings." The operative word being "older."

To echo what a lot of other people have said, I'd like to see an initial focus on residential. Stabilize and save as much as you can, and get people down there. Then I hope development pushes south, it's only a few blocks from the southern end of Chouteau's landing to "downtown" Kosciusko. Linking Soulard to Kosciusko to Chouteau's Landing to Downtown/The Arch would be amazing.