Live all the way out in UCity now... didya buy Alex Ihnen's farm house?warwickland wrote: ↑Jul 13, 2017just some observations from living in the city for years (i now live all the way out in university city and also had a stint in maplewood). I lived many years (6-7) in the southern part of TGS, before that Debaliviere Place most recently Dogtown. I NEVER ONCE had a crime that directly affected me (car break in, burglary, robbery, etc), maybe i'm just lucky...or cautious (i barricaded my basement door with steel beams against daytime kick-ins when that was a big problem in TGS, etc etc etc).
I have had more problems in the county, where i HAVE had my car broken into (not u-city). the crime issue is a funny one in st. louis.
what i really didn't like was when i would call the non-emergency line and report things like REALLY CLOSE gunshots, or open air drug dealing as I was watching it on the phone from my living room (i'm talking a crew on the corner EVERY DAY ALL DAY CAR AFTER CAR), i was blown off by the operator, or got no response by the PD. I ended up bothering the landlord and a social worker enough (there was a child and a mother involved) that the drug dealing parties simply took their operation right across chippewa to dutchtown around amberg park (and flip us the finger, yell at us, make a hand gun gesture as they still walked back and forth between neighborhoods across chippewa) and the whole thing made us feel like we had to deal with things like this on our own which was b.s....
olvidarte wrote: ↑Jul 12, 2017I would say this is attitude is pervasive other neighborhoods around TGP as well.In TGS folks seem to have become accustomed and desensitized to crime. No exaggeration, we literally have residents who have their cars and garages broken into and won't call the cops because they think the person who stole from them must be poor and must have needed to do it.
I've noticed many instances where someone mentions on social media they called the cops, or ask if they should call the non-emergency number, for something they see that is completely illegal, and the person that asks that questions or who called the police is publicly shamed on social media for getting the police involved.
I read those posts and wonder how crime is supposed to get better if people on the south side continue to basically excuse it. It's like if shots weren't involved, don't call the cops.
I realize the crime problem is going to take all sorts of approaches, and the PD doesn't need to be involved in everything, but we still need the PD and we have to report what we see.
There is this bizarre acceptance of illegal behavior.
framer wrote: ↑Jul 13, 2017olvidarte wrote: ↑Jul 12, 2017I would say this is attitude is pervasive other neighborhoods around TGP as well.In TGS folks seem to have become accustomed and desensitized to crime. No exaggeration, we literally have residents who have their cars and garages broken into and won't call the cops because they think the person who stole from them must be poor and must have needed to do it.
I've noticed many instances where someone mentions on social media they called the cops, or ask if they should call the non-emergency number, for something they see that is completely illegal, and the person that asks that questions or who called the police is publicly shamed on social media for getting the police involved.
I read those posts and wonder how crime is supposed to get better if people on the south side continue to basically excuse it. It's like if shots weren't involved, don't call the cops.
I realize the crime problem is going to take all sorts of approaches, and the PD doesn't need to be involved in everything, but we still need the PD and we have to report what we see.
There is this bizarre acceptance of illegal behavior.
Wow! This is just stupid.
Here in U City (one of the most diverse areas of St. Louis) we encourage everyone to report ALL criminal activity. We use social media to alert our neighbors to vandalism, auto break-ins, strangers lurking around houses, etc. The police ask us to report things such as suspicious vehicles and inappropriate behaviors, because this helps helps them build a database which can be used to provide "probable cause". That allows them to legally stop and check on known trouble-makers.
This is how you prevent crime before it happens, and build better, healthier neighborhoods.
I believe the CDC opened a Police substation on Bamberger in an old multi family that previously housed a bunch of problem tenants. Has helped with crime in that part of the nabe from what I hear. Goes to the earlier point about how smaller intra-neighborhood stations could help.STLrainbow wrote: ↑Jul 13, 2017Live all the way out in UCity now... didya buy Alex Ihnen's farm house?warwickland wrote: ↑Jul 13, 2017just some observations from living in the city for years (i now live all the way out in university city and also had a stint in maplewood). I lived many years (6-7) in the southern part of TGS, before that Debaliviere Place most recently Dogtown. I NEVER ONCE had a crime that directly affected me (car break in, burglary, robbery, etc), maybe i'm just lucky...or cautious (i barricaded my basement door with steel beams against daytime kick-ins when that was a big problem in TGS, etc etc etc).
I have had more problems in the county, where i HAVE had my car broken into (not u-city). the crime issue is a funny one in st. louis.
what i really didn't like was when i would call the non-emergency line and report things like REALLY CLOSE gunshots, or open air drug dealing as I was watching it on the phone from my living room (i'm talking a crew on the corner EVERY DAY ALL DAY CAR AFTER CAR), i was blown off by the operator, or got no response by the PD. I ended up bothering the landlord and a social worker enough (there was a child and a mother involved) that the drug dealing parties simply took their operation right across chippewa to dutchtown around amberg park (and flip us the finger, yell at us, make a hand gun gesture as they still walked back and forth between neighborhoods across chippewa) and the whole thing made us feel like we had to deal with things like this on our own which was b.s....
did you live in the TGS Wedge? fwiw, I think some solid things are happening down there past 12-24 months... the CDC is doing some work there and it also seems things are getting better crossing Chippewa into Amberg Park in Dutchtown... both in the park itself as well as some of the apartment buildings on Gustine; and great diversity down there ...passing through the other night noticed Nepalese, Somali,, white, black... Puerto Rican,, everybody just a freakin. (ok, made that last Prince part up.) .
I admire this. A lot of people "talk the talk" about living in the city. Nice to see people committed to investing in a home. <3urban_dilettante wrote: ↑Jul 13, 2017We recently bought a house on Meramec Sreet in Dutchtown (We're pretty well aware of what we're getting into. We're making a decision to invest in the neighborhood.)
The CDC also got a hold of a couple properties on both sides of Gravois and rehabbed for home sale... and a few new construction homes.SouthCityJR wrote: ↑Jul 13, 2017I believe the CDC opened a Police substation on Bamberger in an old multi family that previously housed a bunch of problem tenants. Has helped with crime in that part of the nabe from what I hear. Goes to the earlier point about how smaller intra-neighborhood stations could help.
That's a pretty good synopsis of South CIty, Ebsy... definitely a good amount of Old School South Saint Louis is left but on top of that is layered a really nice addition of newcomers, particularly young adults and immigrants. The tapestry and flavors of each neighborhood certainly vary, but collectively it's pretty impressive, diverse functioning place. Wish a lot more parts of the region were more like it .Ebsy wrote: ↑Jul 13, 2017The focus on the central corridor has really obscured the fact that South City is going through a fundamental shift from working and middle class Catholic communities with lots of unionized industrial workers to an area filled with professionals of varying affluence along with a mix of immigrants and retiring baby boomers...
i lived near gravois plaza. the house was in my ex's name when we bought...i guess i wasn't ready to buy then (it was right after the housing crash) but she would make 50K + now if she sold. i never had any intention of leaving TGS but so it goes.STLrainbow wrote: ↑Jul 13, 2017Live all the way out in UCity now... didya buy Alex Ihnen's farm house?
did you live in the TGS Wedge? fwiw, I think some solid things are happening down there past 12-24 months... the CDC is doing some work there and it also seems things are getting better crossing Chippewa into Amberg Park in Dutchtown... both in the park itself as well as some of the apartment buildings on Gustine; and great diversity down there ...passing through the other night noticed Nepalese, Somali,, white, black... Puerto Rican,, everybody just a freakin. (ok, made that last Prince part up.) .
but the assessor has already been snooping around, i seem to have bought about a split second before the st. louis housing market (especially the inner suburban market which is frothing at the mouth crazy) went into hyperdrive.Your basic premise feels about right and I don't want to be too picky, but I would take issue with some of your details . . .
I'd say it was more different than sleepy. There was plenty going on between the Grind and Left Bank everything else. Even the Bread Company that used to be there just seemed cooler than most. It was cheaper then. More students. More like a slightly quieter version of what the loop is now. But there were a ton of places I used to hang out there that are all gone now. It was less dense, to be sure. There was a little more surface parking, and some of the apartment buildings were smaller and older. (Though in some cases quite pretty. The buildings they knocked down for the garage-brary seemed like rather a blow at the time.) It was younger. It's a little greyer now, and it's bought more expensive clothes. But I'd not have called it sleepy, even then. Not remotely.Euclid was even pretty sleepy
Oh, MoKaBe's moved in about then. And CBGB was already there. And the same passle of Vietnamese restaurants that are still there to this day. And Jay's. Sameem was down there from about '95, maybe, until they moved to Manchester a few years back. The Persian joint was already there by the mid to late 90s. And the bookstore.S Grand had King and I and S City Diner - and that was about it
I'm not suggesting that such an event would be triggered on purpose. Of course it would be bad in and of itself. I just think that, overall, St. Louis is treading water. One step forward in one area is followed by a step backward somewhere else. Tax rates are tapped out. Population is stagnant at best. Leadership is the same stale group.
Actually, 1970 set the record with 309. There were 267 in 1993.
Not factoring in population differences between 1970 and 1993 makes using a stat like that misleading in my opinion. City population in 1970: 622,236. City population in 1990: 396,685.framer wrote: ↑Jul 19, 2017Actually, 1970 set the record with 309. There were 267 in 1993.
This article includes a chart going back to 1934:
https://nextstl.com/2013/01/understandi ... 1943-2011/
Fair enough, however, I think the conversation started going down this path once people wondered if we had indeed "hit rock bottom" before. Which, if so, would only make sense to discuss, learn from the past and consider how it affects the future.
No. There's absolutely no evidence or reason to believe that a city needs to "bottom out" before it can improve. We don't even have a standard against which to measure "bottom" so we end up crying "bottom" every time we get frustrated--as with this thread and the crime thread. With all due respect, I feel like this type of conversation is just a bunch of wheel spinning.
Yeah my memory is probably not recalling everything, - In the CWE my world was MP O'Reilly's and the Lynx club - Bar Italia where Starbucks is now o occasion - Coffee houses were not my thing at that age. I just remember it eerie and quite at night where in the day it seemed to enjoy good foot traffic, I do recall more vacant buildings and parking lots thensymphonicpoet wrote: ↑Jul 19, 2017Your basic premise feels about right and I don't want to be too picky, but I would take issue with some of your details . . .
I'd say it was more different than sleepy. There was plenty going on between the Grind and Left Bank everything else. Even the Bread Company that used to be there just seemed cooler than most. It was cheaper then. More students. More like a slightly quieter version of what the loop is now. But there were a ton of places I used to hang out there that are all gone now. It was less dense, to be sure. There was a little more surface parking, and some of the apartment buildings were smaller and older. (Though in some cases quite pretty. The buildings they knocked down for the garage-brary seemed like rather a blow at the time.) It was younger. It's a little greyer now, and it's bought more expensive clothes. But I'd not have called it sleepy, even then. Not remotely.Euclid was even pretty sleepy
Oh, MoKaBe's moved in about then. And CBGB was already there. And the same passle of Vietnamese restaurants that are still there to this day. And Jay's. Sameem was down there from about '95, maybe, until they moved to Manchester a few years back. The Persian joint was already there by the mid to late 90s. And the bookstore.S Grand had King and I and S City Diner - and that was about it
And there were already quiet rumblings around Manchester and Vandeventer as far back as '97. Atomic Cowby, Roxy's, Our World Too, the Niner Diner . . . Some of that moved west into the Grove proper and some of it moved south for a while onto Grand. And yes, that was a pretty dreary corner, apart from that one building.
All that said, I think your premise is probably not too far off. We hit bottom in the late 80s or early 90s and things are slowly pulling up in an absolute average sort of sense, but maybe we're also seeing the larger national trends locally, albeit written in smaller type. I'd guess there's more of a disparity now between the up and coming hoods and the down and out than there was then. The dying are worse and the living are better. On average, things are better, but there are surely specific areas (many) where things are worse. (Maybe much worse, even.) CWE and Clayton are the coasts. The north side is Detroit and the south side is Milwaukee, maybe. Each with its own solid spots, but both with problems that need to be addressed. And both with image problems that maybe even outweigh the real problems. And possibly also a growing shortage of good jobs as the economy shifts away from manufacturing and more to service, financial, and STEM. It can lead to a big discrepancy between the impressions of folks in different areas. Especially for those folks as feel they've been completely priced out of places they used to hang out. (I'll go out on a limb and guess that the paucity of dive bars on Washington now is likely related to rising rents. I can't imagine the area will remain short of retail for too long, but when it comes back . . . it will be trendier and more expensive even than it was before.)
Good catch - i guess i was thinking per populationframer wrote: ↑Jul 19, 2017Actually, 1970 set the record with 309. There were 267 in 1993.
This article includes a chart going back to 1934:
https://nextstl.com/2013/01/understandi ... 1943-2011/
This is a much better explanation of what I was trying to demonstrate - I thought (correct me if I am wrong) that the original intent was saying that things are going bad and the only way to improve is start "from a clean slate" - My view was from the prospective of time - there are no "clean slates" - just cycles of decay-renewal-growth-decline but the city has been up-cycling for 20 years or so "cycling" meaning that there have been setbacks (always will) but overall there has been improvementwabash wrote: ↑Jul 19, 2017All of the examples of how St. Louis has improved since some time between the late-70's to early-90's are a way of saying that St. Louis has been improving and facing current challenges, has been for some time, and can continue to do so without some drastic bottoming out happening.
Also, I think the incremental changes have a way of building off of each other and snowballing in a much more sustainable manner than some epic sea change following the devastation of a "forest-clearing fire." Jobs leaving, people leaving, buildings being cleared, crime drastically rising, high school graduation rates tanking, infrastructure failing, services being slashed, the city's budget imploding...... whatever it is you mean by "rock bottom", "cratering", "bottom out", or "forest-clearing fire" would not be good for the City of St. Louis. Is that not obvious?
Some of it is probably a difference of perspective. I was a college kid running around trying to be cool sipping coffee and playing solitaire after working evenings. Never really got anywhere in the daytime. And I didn't have the scratch to hang out fancy places. I was a coffee until close and then to the Buttery or Majestic kind of guy. So I didn't see much during the daytime.Work until midnight. Sleep past noon.beer city wrote: ↑Jul 20, 2017
Yeah my memory is probably not recalling everything, - In the CWE my world was MP O'Reilly's and the Lynx club - Bar Italia where Starbucks is now o occasion - Coffee houses were not my thing at that age. I just remember it eerie and quite at night where in the day it seemed to enjoy good foot traffic, I do recall more vacant buildings and parking lots then
S Grand seemed to enjoy a nice renaissance starting in 95 -
I thought Atomic Cowboy opened in Maplewood in the early 2000's?
