No, I don't. That's the problem and why the national guard is not a solution.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Mar 02, 2023^ to prosecute what? You think national guard has authority to arrest people and request charges?
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You don’t think it would send a message to the bad apples that things are changing?
You don’t think it would give a sense of security to people to come downtown?
As theater, maybe? Then again, it might serve as a shock to see the military roaming the streets of a U.S. city. What happens if they are put in the position of having to detain someone? Do they wait on hold on 9-1-1 for a cop to show up?
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I'm not on board with "old timer" quite yet but I was very alive and well and out and about during the late 80s through early 90s. A teenager and early 20 something during the crack wars. Look at any city and the homicides were probably DOUBLE what they are now. Of course, it was normal, less news, no social media.quincunx wrote: ↑Mar 02, 2023Can some old timers comment on what it was like in
1970 Index crimes 71,437 Homicides 309
1993 Index crimes 64,438 Homicides 267
I haven't been "mugged" at gunpoint since the mid 90s I guess.
The funny thing is though, people seemed to get along better. Things seemed better socially as compared to now. I truly believe that social media, porn, covid, everyone in a tribe, etc has seriously caused some sort of widespread mental illness of sorts.
I would have never predicted that society in general would have taken this turn. Never saw it coming.
If you are threatening someone with a gun it is not legal. The guy is clearly about to point it at someone.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Mar 02, 2023Everything in this photo is perfectly legal in Missouri, even if he was 14 it would be legal. There is literally nothing Police can do about that. Everyone in the state can have a gun, no permit needed and no age restrictions and police can’t ask you about it until you fire the shot.
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he was defending himself against people in the car arguing with him, its right there under the photo.flipz wrote: ↑Mar 02, 2023If you are threatening someone with a gun it is not legal. The guy is clearly about to point it at someone.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Mar 02, 2023Everything in this photo is perfectly legal in Missouri, even if he was 14 it would be legal. There is literally nothing Police can do about that. Everyone in the state can have a gun, no permit needed and no age restrictions and police can’t ask you about it until you fire the shot.
In the late 80's and early 90's Arco Ave in FPSE/The Grove was just an ugly drive-thru crack market before they blocked stuff off and Schoemehl potted the area. That and Botanical Heights before it got flattened and rebuilt by McBride.leeharveyawesome wrote: ↑Mar 02, 2023I'm not on board with "old timer" quite yet but I was very alive and well and out and about during the late 80s through early 90s. A teenager and early 20 something during the crack wars.quincunx wrote: ↑Mar 02, 2023Can some old timers comment on what it was like in
1970 Index crimes 71,437 Homicides 309
1993 Index crimes 64,438 Homicides 267
Before we call out the National Guard, let's all remember what happened at Kent State.
I moved to St. Louis in 2003 and it is remarkable to me how much more development there is now in the city and how much safer it feels. Areas like the Loop east of Skinker, the Grove, Soulard, and Cherokee all have a lot more density and feel much less dangerous than they did back in the mid 00's.
I bought a house in Olivette in the mid 00's and it has definitely worked out for me financially. I also love my neighborhood in spite of experiencing a home burglary and seeing gun violence in my neighborhood a few times since I moved here. However, if I were looking for a house today, there is a good chance I'd choose somewhere in the city. My younger brother and three different friends all moved to the city from the county since 2019 and strongly prefer it. They live spread out around south city (TGS, Benton Park West, Gravois Park, and Dutchtown).
I thought that our collective experiences with STL might be relevant to this thread. To be fair, I don't spend a lot of time on social media, but I do spend a lot of time walking and taking the Metrolink around the city with my kids.
I bought a house in Olivette in the mid 00's and it has definitely worked out for me financially. I also love my neighborhood in spite of experiencing a home burglary and seeing gun violence in my neighborhood a few times since I moved here. However, if I were looking for a house today, there is a good chance I'd choose somewhere in the city. My younger brother and three different friends all moved to the city from the county since 2019 and strongly prefer it. They live spread out around south city (TGS, Benton Park West, Gravois Park, and Dutchtown).
I thought that our collective experiences with STL might be relevant to this thread. To be fair, I don't spend a lot of time on social media, but I do spend a lot of time walking and taking the Metrolink around the city with my kids.
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I suppose everyone has their own version of what "normal" is so IDK. I would describe St. Louis as congenial compared to back then. I mean, people were ROUGH. Vietnam vets were in their 30s and 40s and really surly, crack, gang banging, shirtless white trash, skull crushing cops, etc. Yet somehow it seemed ok. IDK. A million scholarly essays have been written about this I guess.
At any rate, I was thinking that summer 2022 could be the best summer St. Louis has seen since the 1930s or 40s perhaps.
To address the thread topic, rock bottom happened a long time ago.
To address the thread topic, rock bottom happened a long time ago.
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Typo! But while I'm logged in let's get real about something. About this poor fellow who got "executed". It's terrible obviously but should I go into panic mode and express outrage on the internet because a junkie who I don't even know got shot? I mean seriously. That's the thing, everything seems personal now. It's just weird.
Correct, and very relevant to this discussion. Its important to note, again and again, when discussing crime/violence in St. Louis, that effectively there are no gun possession laws in MO since ~2016 (?). MO also has the most liberal (as in permissive) stand-your-ground laws in the country. If you reasonably feel like your life or your property is in danger, then you're free to fire away without legal consequence in MO. Of course gun violence has skyrocketed.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Mar 02, 2023Everything in this photo is perfectly legal in Missouri, even if he was 14 it would be legal. There is literally nothing Police can do about that. Everyone in the state can have a gun, no permit needed and no age restrictions and police can’t ask you about it until you fire the shot.
Going back to the late 80s/90s, drug-related crime was to some degree "controlled" by the criminals themselves; for example gangs carving up turf (i.e. drug markets) between them and then "policing" their own within it. Those social structures are largely gone now, replaced by loose crews that may be tethered more by social media and cultural affinity than physical geography or "business" association. Violence therefore becomes less predictable and directed and instead more stochastic--just part of the random noise of everyday life that can materialize any time and place.
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I think people in general feel the same way about this as they do car crashes, its just a stat on a page. Which is how they would have felt about this victim if it wasn't for a video, maybe we need to see more homicides on video to careleeharveyawesome wrote: ↑Mar 02, 2023Typo! But while I'm logged in let's get real about something. About this poor fellow who got "executed". It's terrible obviously but should I go into panic mode and express outrage on the internet because a junkie who I don't even know got shot? I mean seriously. That's the thing, everything seems personal now. It's just weird.
For me, the main thing is the perception of crime; Downtown specifically, but the whole area in general. St. Louis is perceived as having a major problem with violent crime, and, fairly or unfairly, these kinds of incidents only reinforce that reputation. These days more than ever, perception is reality. Until we can turn around the narrative, or national reputation is horrible.
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What a better way to do that then not go into full hyperbole spaz out when a dealer and a client get into a fight, notice the shooter didn’t just keep randomly shooting people after he shot his clientframer wrote: ↑Mar 02, 2023For me, the main thing is the perception of crime; Downtown specifically, but the whole area in general. St. Louis is perceived as having a major problem with violent crime, and, fairly or unfairly, these kinds of incidents only reinforce that reputation. These days more than ever, perception is reality. Until we can turn around the narrative, or national reputation is horrible.
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While I'm impressed your ability to disassociate and diminish an execution style murder in broad daylight as a statistical reality with no more consequence than any other murder, neither the greater public nor social media will think it irrelevant to the narrative of downtown STL.
Foremost, I think you dismissing anyone's strong reaction to this event/video as hyperbole is fallacious if not deceptive. There can be no overreaction to this video in my opinion. It is abhorrent.
You can admit an adverse event is not a good look for us and a detriment to the ongoing image rehabilitation of DTSTL while also advocating for measured reactions in the big picture (as so well reinforced by your data analysis).
Foremost, I think you dismissing anyone's strong reaction to this event/video as hyperbole is fallacious if not deceptive. There can be no overreaction to this video in my opinion. It is abhorrent.
You can admit an adverse event is not a good look for us and a detriment to the ongoing image rehabilitation of DTSTL while also advocating for measured reactions in the big picture (as so well reinforced by your data analysis).
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^ how do you think the other 200 homicides went like in 2022? “I’m terribly sorry sir but I’m going to have to whack you now”. Every single “victim found in front sit of a car” homicide is execution style from back seat or passenger seat
Measuring the effects (positive and negative) of different perceptions is very tricky. I am sure that in some social circles, perception of high crime is a major negative for STL. However, in my personal experience as someone who has hired a number of people from coastal cities for in person jobs in STL, crime has never come up as a concern. The biggest concerns by far are 1) that STL is boring, and 2) that STL is in a red state and subject to regressive laws. I'm happy to report that #1 is typically assuaged if people actually take the job and move here.framer wrote: ↑Mar 02, 2023For me, the main thing is the perception of crime; Downtown specifically, but the whole area in general. St. Louis is perceived as having a major problem with violent crime, and, fairly or unfairly, these kinds of incidents only reinforce that reputation. These days more than ever, perception is reality. Until we can turn around the narrative, or national reputation is horrible.
I've also unfortunately had several friends move out of STL to a coast. These moves have exclusively been in reaction to the regressive MO state government; most recently two good friends decided to move to the west coast due to MO's increasingly strident anti-trans policies.
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And you are missing my point. If you want to do a circle jerk of phraseology and claim that all murders are "execution style" be my guest.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Mar 02, 2023^ how do you think the other 200 homicides went like in 2022? “I’m terribly sorry sir but I’m going to have to whack you now”. Every single “victim found in front sit of a car” homicide is execution style from back seat or passenger seat
An execution style murder, where one is on the ground or knees and someone shoots them directly in the head, in broad daylight, in the Central Business District, at or around lunch hour, less than a half mile from our convention center, outside the new offices of Block and other major corporate wins, caught on camera in its entirety is extremely damaging to our reputation, even if the stats bear out another, improving narrative. The negative perception of downtown and STL as whole endures because of events like this, and to say it's hyperbole that anyone thinks this isn't "just another murder" is absurd. A body in the front seat in an alley inside a burnt out car has far fewer ramifications for our city than this particular crime, despite them both counting as "one" on your spreadsheet. For years it has been claimed that the perception of crime in St. louis is unjust because its bad actors acting against one another over turf or drugs, and not in our tourism/business centers. Now that narrative shifts. Do I agree with this new narrative or believe it'? No. Do i agree with you that you are more likely to get injured driving from chesterfield to downtown? Yes. Does that mean that you can dismiss the implications of a crime of this nature happening in the manner, place and time that it did? Not outside of excel.
Have to say this take pretty much summarizes where my head it. Today, often, shocking crime is on camera and then amplified by both good/bad actors on social media.TheWayoftheArch_V2.0 wrote: ↑Mar 03, 2023And you are missing my point. If you want to do a circle jerk of phraseology and claim that all murders are "execution style" be my guest.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑Mar 02, 2023^ how do you think the other 200 homicides went like in 2022? “I’m terribly sorry sir but I’m going to have to whack you now”. Every single “victim found in front sit of a car” homicide is execution style from back seat or passenger seat
An execution style murder, where one is on the ground or knees and someone shoots them directly in the head, in broad daylight, in the Central Business District, at or around lunch hour, less than a half mile from our convention center, outside the new offices of Block and other major corporate wins, caught on camera in its entirety is extremely damaging to our reputation, even if the stats bear out another, improving narrative. The negative perception of downtown and STL as whole endures because of events like this, and to say it's hyperbole that anyone thinks this isn't "just another murder" is absurd. A body in the front seat in an alley inside a burnt out car has far fewer ramifications for our city than this particular crime, despite them both counting as "one" on your spreadsheet. For years it has been claimed that the perception of crime in St. louis is unjust because its bad actors acting against one another over turf or drugs, and not in our tourism/business centers. Now that narrative shifts. Do I agree with this new narrative or believe it'? No. Do i agree with you that you are more likely to get injured driving from chesterfield to downtown? Yes. Does that mean that you can dismiss the implications of a crime of this nature happening in the manner, place and time that it did? Not outside of excel.
So, historic crime stats don't matter for how people in STL feel in 2023. (Nor does the fact that crime is "as bad" in another city.)
I moved to the city in 1999 and I'd place a large wager that crime stats (city proper, neighborhood specific, etc.) show crime was worse in nearly all ways then.
But know what - I *felt* safer then. Then, if Soulard experienced a wave of muggings, we'd have zero idea it happened unless the Post Dispatch wrote about it or it was reported on this forum as a note from some neighborhood meeting. Ignorance was bliss?
And, even today, I'm NOT someone who (perhaps naively) limits my city travels in any ways because of crime.
Anyway, in close, this all sucks...i mean sh*t, look at the title of this specific thread. It's 6 years old and was 3 years after Ferguson. And, again, I write this as a dude who lives a mostly privileged life who doesn't even "worry" about crime. How much worse do the people who live much closer to crime feel? ***** worse. way worse.
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^ media, including social, definitely can shape people's perception in ways that aren't necessarily reflective of reality.
In terms of STL City hitting "rock bottom" on violent crime in the 21c, hopefully that happened in 2020. That truly was a horrible year for homicide, especially during the second half. While homicide is still far too high, we are one of the few cities where counts and rates have dropped back down to roughly pre-pandemic levels. Meanwhile, most other cities either continued to see homicide increase in 2021 and 2022 or still have levels far above 2018-2019. A number of cities, including Indianapolis, Washington, D.C. and Milwaukee, are interesting in that they had pre-pandemic homicde counts well below ours but have now surpassed ours. New Orleans, too, and its homicide rate surpassed ours last year. Having said all of this, and it's very meaningful that we had "just" 200 homicides in 2021 & 2022 instead of around 250 or more, it's really disappointing that the downward trend that we saw in 2021 has stalled out and hasn't gone further. We need that to happen.
Similarly, the roads out there are wild, but bike/ped deaths also were lower last year than in 2020. (I believe total deaths though from traffic crashes was higher.) But in many cities, 2022 was a record year, including Indianapolis and Nashville. Both of those cities also have high per capita death rates, and Nashville's was higher than ours in 2022. Unfortunately, motorist mayhem is nearly everywhere.
And then of course, the city only continues with development and amenities, etc. Perhaps an area where we haven't hit rock bottom is our deepening inequality.
In terms of STL City hitting "rock bottom" on violent crime in the 21c, hopefully that happened in 2020. That truly was a horrible year for homicide, especially during the second half. While homicide is still far too high, we are one of the few cities where counts and rates have dropped back down to roughly pre-pandemic levels. Meanwhile, most other cities either continued to see homicide increase in 2021 and 2022 or still have levels far above 2018-2019. A number of cities, including Indianapolis, Washington, D.C. and Milwaukee, are interesting in that they had pre-pandemic homicde counts well below ours but have now surpassed ours. New Orleans, too, and its homicide rate surpassed ours last year. Having said all of this, and it's very meaningful that we had "just" 200 homicides in 2021 & 2022 instead of around 250 or more, it's really disappointing that the downward trend that we saw in 2021 has stalled out and hasn't gone further. We need that to happen.
Similarly, the roads out there are wild, but bike/ped deaths also were lower last year than in 2020. (I believe total deaths though from traffic crashes was higher.) But in many cities, 2022 was a record year, including Indianapolis and Nashville. Both of those cities also have high per capita death rates, and Nashville's was higher than ours in 2022. Unfortunately, motorist mayhem is nearly everywhere.
And then of course, the city only continues with development and amenities, etc. Perhaps an area where we haven't hit rock bottom is our deepening inequality.