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PostJul 12, 2017#26

A good read and a possible guide for St. Louis to improve. I encourage you to give it a read....

https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/up ... _paper.pdf

The background on page 9 sounds familiar...
In the mid-to-late 1980s, Copenhagen experienced 17.5 percent unemployment, a growing elderly population, and an
annual budgetary shortfall of $750 million. Deindustrialization and economic restructuring partly explained Copenhagen’s predicament. Yet many economic and financial challenges faced by the city were self-inflicted: To raise funds
in the early 20th century, local government purchased land adjacent to the city, which it developed into suburbs consisting of primarily private family homes. As many families moved to the outskirts of Copenhagen, the city’s tax
base dried up. The outward migration coincided with more individual ownership of private vehicles and greater public subsidization of road infrastructure, both of which enabled people to commute longer distances. As a result, the
city became overrepresented by pensioners and young people attending public universities, neither of whom contributed greatly to the city’s tax revenue.

Facing the loss of its traditional manufacturing base and a stagnating economy, the city
government began to take radical steps to spur economic growth and entice people to move back into the city.2

In 1990, an historic alliance formed between Prime Minister Poul Schlüter of the Conservative People’s Party, Social Democratic party leader Svend Auken, and the Social Democratic mayor of Copenhagen Jens Kramer Mikkelsen. Political coalitions like this are not uncommon in Denmark, a country with a long-standing tradition of compromise. However, national and local governments joining forces to tackle the challenges of the capital city was a bold move. Schlüter, Auken, and Kramer agreed to transform the city by catalyzing investment in housing and state-of-the-art infrastructure, making the city attractive to new citizens and strengthening the city’s tax base.3 Undertaking these improvements without increasing local taxes posed a challenge, so the trio decided to focus on developing public land within the city’s borders that had been left idle and unused.

To accomplish these objectives, the city and national governments created a series of publicly owned, privately run corporations with the explicit goal of regenerating large districts in the city’s core, maximizing the value of underutilized public
land, and using the revenues generated by smart zoning and asset management to finance transit and other infrastructure.
https://www.brookings.edu/research/cope ... velopment/
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PostJul 12, 2017#27

soulardx wrote: ↑
Jul 12, 2017
 So, regionally, nationally, internationally, this is STL’s biggest claim to fame in 2017 – crime. Consider that. That’s our biggest issue. Perception is reality for people. So, it doesn’t matter if crime is increasing/decreasing.

*now, do you trust the crime stats? I get it, whole other ball of wax. not sure I trust them.
Not ignoring the rest of your post, which was very good.

One question I have that's completely anecdotal.

Today in the City, from the worst neighborhood to St. Louis Hills or any other "nice" one, the rule is you don't lock your car. Period. If you do, it gets broken into and it's "your fault." (Not really, but that's kind of the attitude).

A few hundred feet across the border - in some places - like Maplewood, Clayton, Richmond Heights, Shrewsbury - that's simply not true. It would not be tolerated. Of course you can lock your car. Or not. Sure, some get broken into, but it's not the rule. If they are, it's kind of a big deal.

For those who have lived in the city for a long time (I only did for a short time), has that ALWAYS been true? If not, when did it become true?

I can't name a single friend, relative, or acquaintance in the city who parks on the street (a few park in the garage without fail) and who haven't had their car either cleaned out/robbed or broken into in the past decade.
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PostJul 12, 2017#28

I've had my vehicle broken into twice. Once in 2007, and once in 2008. Lock popped out but no entry another time. I still lock my doors.
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PostJul 12, 2017#29

bprop wrote: ↑
Jul 12, 2017
soulardx wrote: ↑
Jul 12, 2017
 So, regionally, nationally, internationally, this is STL’s biggest claim to fame in 2017 – crime. Consider that. That’s our biggest issue. Perception is reality for people. So, it doesn’t matter if crime is increasing/decreasing.

*now, do you trust the crime stats? I get it, whole other ball of wax. not sure I trust them.
Not ignoring the rest of your post, which was very good.

One question I have that's completely anecdotal.

Today in the City, from the worst neighborhood to St. Louis Hills or any other "nice" one, the rule is you don't lock your car. Period. If you do, it gets broken into and it's "your fault." (Not really, but that's kind of the attitude).

A few hundred feet across the border - in some places - like Maplewood, Clayton, Richmond Heights, Shrewsbury - that's simply not true. It would not be tolerated. Of course you can lock your car. Or not. Sure, some get broken into, but it's not the rule. If they are, it's kind of a big deal.



For those who have lived in the city for a long time (I only did for a short time), has that ALWAYS been true? If not, when did it become true?

I can't name a single friend, relative, or acquaintance in the city who parks on the street (a few park in the garage without fail) and who haven't had their car either cleaned out/robbed or broken into in the past decade.
I've lived in the City quite a while and have always heard some but not all people promote that theory, but I do agree that part of the reason the inner suburbs are safer is simply just that the residents won't stand for crime and for whatever reason many City folks don't seem to mind as much. As I've stated before, I think that's why my old neighborhood StL Hills was safer than my new nabe TGS, the residents are simply more united and loudly vocal about not accepting any amount of crime. In TGS folks seem to have become accustomed and desensitized to crime. No exaggeration, we literally have residents who have their cars and garages broken into and won't call the cops because they think the person who stole from them must be poor and must have needed to do it. That attitude wouldn't fly in StL Hills or Maplewood/Richmond Heights. I called the non-emergency line recently and a cop called me back to thank me for doing so because she said not enough people in TGS call them. Rant over.
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PostJul 12, 2017#30

I know several city residents who swear by the "never lock your car door" approach and all of these people have one thing in common - really crappy cars.
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PostJul 12, 2017#31

bprop wrote: ↑
Jul 12, 2017
 The central corridor is 'humming along' but apparently the market can't supporting a major project because as best I can tell, not a single one has been built without significant subsidy. I may be making too much of it, but in my mind a tipping point will happen when a large building or other neighborhood anchor is built without public financing. Any booming area humming along so well should be able to support such a development.
i think occupancy rates are a better indicator than subsidy. subsidy or not, these new places aren't cheap and people are paying to live in them. that indicates demand.
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PostJul 12, 2017#32

SouthCityJR wrote: ↑
Jul 12, 2017
 Compare all of the neighborhoods surrounding Tower Grove Park (or even the actual Park for that matter) and compare them now against 20 years ago, when they actually did hit rock bottom. The change has been dramatic. Some houses are selling for over $500k and young families are moving in. Read the book "Tower Grove" by Mark Abbot. Not that long ago some of these beautiful old houses in Tower Grove Heights currently being sold to young families were operating as brothels.
I'm not sure what is making people freak out so much but a lot of folks here either are recent to town, aren't familiar with the present state of the town, or have taken for granted our treasures and forgotten the tremendous progress that has been made in restoring and improving these wonderful amenities in our city such as Tower Grove Park and Forest Park and neighborhood commercial districts that have been attracting so many people in recent years as residents. Not sure how many saw the recent Channel 9 special on Central West End, but I highly recommend it. The problems of the 1970's were seemingly intractable but that didn't deter folks from moving ahead with building a better city, just like what's going on today. Ideally we'd be further along and we've got a long way to go, especially North of Delmar, but we've come so far as well in recovering from the abandonment and flight of those much darker days.

PostJul 12, 2017#33

bprop wrote: ↑
Jul 12, 2017
onecity wrote: ↑
Jul 12, 2017
 Well, isn't it true that although the city's population may be experiencing slight declines, it is the result of losing less educated poor black residents in north city, and gaining affluent white/black/asian/etc residents with degrees elsewhere? That adds a lot to the tax base or it could.
Is that a question or statement? Seems highly speculative. Do you see the south side becoming overall more affluent? Haven't most of the Bosnians moved out?


Census has shown a huge jump in college-educated residents over past couple decades; more recent estimates show we're adding more whites/asians/hispanics and decreasing black population. Is South City more affluent? Heck yes it is; at least for a huge chunk of it. Somebody is buying all those homes with jacked up prices and raising the damn property assessments!. .

PostJul 12, 2017#34

^ by the way, regarding South City if you haven't been around lately (and not necessarily you but anyone in general) it really is on the up... there is a reason for example that things like baby boutiques, Raising Cane's and Chick-Fil-A are opening here and not just craft breweries and your stereotypical "hipster" joints.
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PostJul 12, 2017#35

In TGS folks seem to have become accustomed and desensitized to crime. No exaggeration, we literally have residents who have their cars and garages broken into and won't call the cops because they think the person who stole from them must be poor and must have needed to do it.
I would say this is attitude is pervasive other neighborhoods around TGP as well.

I've noticed many instances where someone mentions on social media they called the cops, or ask if they should call the non-emergency number, for something they see that is completely illegal, and the person that asks that questions or who called the police is publicly shamed on social media for getting the police involved.

I read those posts and wonder how crime is supposed to get better if people on the south side continue to basically excuse it. It's like if shots weren't involved, don't call the cops.

I realize the crime problem is going to take all sorts of approaches, and the PD doesn't need to be involved in everything, but we still need the PD and we have to report what we see.

There is this bizarre acceptance of illegal behavior.
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PostJul 12, 2017#36

I think where STL really has hit rock bottom is in reputation. Fair or not, our city has taken a huge hit nationally in recent years. It's no secret we must get a serious grip on crime, as it is running people out of the City. Whether social networking and media have overblown it or not, the reputation is only getting worse. I travel a lot and have met people in South Florida, Pittsburgh, Tulsa and a few other places, that have made negative comments about STL when I tell them where i'm from. We all know what Ferguson did to our City. It would help to get off of the 'most dangerous cities" list. It would help to consolidate and realize the synergies of regional governing. We all know that. We need to stop the bleeding or we will continue to bleed population. Perception is reality to many. I hope we've hit rock bottom with regards to reputation and we can begin to see our city in the media for positive things. Memories are short and the next generations will have different perceptions if new leaders emerge and make serious changes. We can only hope!
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PostJul 12, 2017#37

Here's some data from the census bureau on overall education levels in St. Louis City, in percent. The first number is high school or higher. The second is bachelor's degree or higher. Not drawing any meaning from them, just reporting.

2009: 84.5, 28.5
2010: 84.1, 26.9
2011: 81.9, 27.7
2012: 82.3, 28.5
2013: 82.9, 29.6
2014: 83.2, 30.4
2015: 84.1, 31.9
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PostJul 13, 2017#38

olvidarte wrote: ↑
Jul 12, 2017
 There is this bizarre acceptance of illegal behavior.
I think it's called "empathy".

Think about it; prisons in this country are basically giant torture chambers with no way out, that breed more crime than they prevent. Cops shoot people for crimes such as "jaywalking" and "being pulled over". Is it any wonder some folks prefer not to involve the justice system in non-violent crimes?
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PostJul 13, 2017#39

As someone who has now lived outside the St Louis area for almost 6 years now, I think it's important to understand this:

ST LOUIS IS NOT NATIONALLY KNOWN FOR ITS CRIME.

It simply isn't. Regionally? Yes. Nationally? No. People on the east and west coasts only hear about the rampages in Chicago, and how nearly half of Detroit is vacant. St. Louis never makes news on the coasts, the South, or really anywhere outside of our area. Say what you will and how you disagree with me, but from living in the Minneapolis area, the New York area, and even in the greater Bay area, all people know about St Louis is the Arch and the Cardinals. Nobody knows or cares about the problems in the city. Ferguson? Most people don't even know that's near St. Louis. If any city has taken repeated national hits lately, it is Chicago. Chicago is known nationally for its horrific crime rate. Not to say that the country doesn't care about St. Louis, but I'm just saying- crime is not the first thing that comes to mind when one thinks of the city. I have had only one person in my six years being away from St. Louis ever bring up crime, and that was someone from the Metro East. Sorry for this rant, but I just need to introduce some outside perspective.

Also to add: The startup scene in St. Louis is known nationally. It is openly discussed at entrepreneurial functions up and down the east coast. In fact, many people have positive opinions of St. Louis, actually scratch that, pretty much all people I have encountered have positive things to say about the city.
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PostJul 13, 2017#40

bprop wrote: ↑
Jul 12, 2017
soulardx wrote: ↑
Jul 12, 2017
 So, regionally, nationally, internationally, this is STL’s biggest claim to fame in 2017 – crime. Consider that. That’s our biggest issue. Perception is reality for people. So, it doesn’t matter if crime is increasing/decreasing.

*now, do you trust the crime stats? I get it, whole other ball of wax. not sure I trust them.
Not ignoring the rest of your post, which was very good.

One question I have that's completely anecdotal.

Today in the City, from the worst neighborhood to St. Louis Hills or any other "nice" one, the rule is you don't lock your car. Period. If you do, it gets broken into and it's "your fault." (Not really, but that's kind of the attitude).

A few hundred feet across the border - in some places - like Maplewood, Clayton, Richmond Heights, Shrewsbury - that's simply not true. It would not be tolerated. Of course you can lock your car. Or not. Sure, some get broken into, but it's not the rule. If they are, it's kind of a big deal.

For those who have lived in the city for a long time (I only did for a short time), has that ALWAYS been true? If not, when did it become true?

I can't name a single friend, relative, or acquaintance in the city who parks on the street (a few park in the garage without fail) and who haven't had their car either cleaned out/robbed or broken into in the past decade.
In ~20 years of city living, only had my car broken into once. downtown, outside Tangerine, 99/00.

and in those ~20 year, have never left my car unopened.

With that being said, that advice is common.

PostJul 13, 2017#41

Chalupas54 wrote: ↑
Jul 13, 2017
 As someone who has now lived outside the St Louis area for almost 6 years now, I think it's important to understand this:

ST LOUIS IS NOT NATIONALLY KNOWN FOR ITS CRIME.

It simply isn't. Regionally? Yes. Nationally? No. People on the east and west coasts only hear about the rampages in Chicago, and how nearly half of Detroit is vacant. St. Louis never makes news on the coasts, the South, or really anywhere outside of our area. Say what you will and how you disagree with me, but from living in the Minneapolis area, the New York area, and even in the greater Bay area, all people know about St Louis is the Arch and the Cardinals. Nobody knows or cares about the problems in the city. Ferguson? Most people don't even know that's near St. Louis. If any city has taken repeated national hits lately, it is Chicago. Chicago is known nationally for its horrific crime rate. Not to say that the country doesn't care about St. Louis, but I'm just saying- crime is not the first thing that comes to mind when one thinks of the city. I have had only one person in my six years being away from St. Louis ever bring up crime, and that was someone from the Metro East. Sorry for this rant, but I just need to introduce some outside perspective.

Also to add: The startup scene in St. Louis is known nationally. It is openly discussed at entrepreneurial functions up and down the east coast. In fact, many people have positive opinions of St. Louis, actually scratch that, pretty much all people I have encountered have positive things to say about the city.
My experience has been different. People outside the area know STL for crime and urban decline. With that said, I'm one dude relaying maybe a dozen encounters over the past few years. Truly happy to hear your experience has been different.
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PostJul 13, 2017#42

bprop wrote: ↑
Jul 12, 2017
 Here's some data from the census bureau on overall education levels in St. Louis City, in percent. The first number is high school or higher. The second is bachelor's degree or higher. Not drawing any meaning from them, just reporting.

2009: 84.5, 28.5
2010: 84.1, 26.9
2011: 81.9, 27.7
2012: 82.3, 28.5
2013: 82.9, 29.6
2014: 83.2, 30.4
2015: 84.1, 31.9
For comparison, Bachelor's Degree or higher was 19.1% in 2000. STL City has had one of the highest percentage increases in the nation since 2000. (The 2015 1 yr. ACS is all the way up to 34.7%, but some caution is needed for that.)

Millennials Bring New Life to Some Rust Belt Cities
http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-an ... elt-cities

Baltimore, Pittsburgh and St. Louis saw their population of educated millennials grow by more than half since 2000, despite population losses overall, according to a Stateline analysis of census data collected from 2010-2014....

PostJul 13, 2017#43

^ if the ACS 2015 1 yr. estimate of 34.7% with bachelor's or higher is roughly correct (+/- is 1.8%), we have about 34,000 more college grads than in 2000. (42,000 in 2000 and 76,000 in 2015.) Even if numbers are off some, there still are a heck of a lot more young educateds in the City than 15-25 years ago, both in percentage and raw numbers.
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PostJul 13, 2017#44

soulardx wrote: ↑
Jul 13, 2017
Chalupas54 wrote: ↑
Jul 13, 2017
 As someone who has now lived outside the St Louis area for almost 6 years now, I think it's important to understand this:

ST LOUIS IS NOT NATIONALLY KNOWN FOR ITS CRIME.

It simply isn't. Regionally? Yes. Nationally? No. People on the east and west coasts only hear about the rampages in Chicago, and how nearly half of Detroit is vacant. St. Louis never makes news on the coasts, the South, or really anywhere outside of our area. Say what you will and how you disagree with me, but from living in the Minneapolis area, the New York area, and even in the greater Bay area, all people know about St Louis is the Arch and the Cardinals. Nobody knows or cares about the problems in the city. Ferguson? Most people don't even know that's near St. Louis. If any city has taken repeated national hits lately, it is Chicago. Chicago is known nationally for its horrific crime rate. Not to say that the country doesn't care about St. Louis, but I'm just saying- crime is not the first thing that comes to mind when one thinks of the city. I have had only one person in my six years being away from St. Louis ever bring up crime, and that was someone from the Metro East. Sorry for this rant, but I just need to introduce some outside perspective.

Also to add: The startup scene in St. Louis is known nationally. It is openly discussed at entrepreneurial functions up and down the east coast. In fact, many people have positive opinions of St. Louis, actually scratch that, pretty much all people I have encountered have positive things to say about the city.
My experience has been different. People outside the area know STL for crime and urban decline. With that said, I'm one dude relaying maybe a dozen encounters over the past few years. Truly happy to hear your experience has been different.
Although there are people that may be aware of it, I can guarantee for a fact that the average person walking down the street in Hoboken, NJ will say "The Arch" when asked the first thing they think of when they hear St. Louis. Also, there is a large tourist market from the East Coast to St. Louis, something I never realized when I lived in STL. I actually really think the CVB should launch an ad campaign in Boston, NYC, and Philadelphia.
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PostJul 13, 2017#45

bprop wrote: ↑
Jul 12, 2017
soulardx wrote: ↑
Jul 12, 2017
 So, regionally, nationally, internationally, this is STL’s biggest claim to fame in 2017 – crime. Consider that. That’s our biggest issue. Perception is reality for people. So, it doesn’t matter if crime is increasing/decreasing.

*now, do you trust the crime stats? I get it, whole other ball of wax. not sure I trust them.
Not ignoring the rest of your post, which was very good.

One question I have that's completely anecdotal.

Today in the City, from the worst neighborhood to St. Louis Hills or any other "nice" one, the rule is you don't lock your car. Period. If you do, it gets broken into and it's "your fault." (Not really, but that's kind of the attitude).

A few hundred feet across the border - in some places - like Maplewood, Clayton, Richmond Heights, Shrewsbury - that's simply not true. It would not be tolerated. Of course you can lock your car. Or not. Sure, some get broken into, but it's not the rule. If they are, it's kind of a big deal.

For those who have lived in the city for a long time (I only did for a short time), has that ALWAYS been true? If not, when did it become true?

I can't name a single friend, relative, or acquaintance in the city who parks on the street (a few park in the garage without fail) and who haven't had their car either cleaned out/robbed or broken into in the past decade.
In the past twenty five years of car ownership I've had a window broken out of my car twice and my car obviously entered and searched twice. Window one was on a beater when I broke down in Wentzville and some kindly soul chucked a full beer bottle through my window while I was walking to the station to arrange a tow. (Who wastes beer like that? Idiot.) Window two was a new model Saturn SL in Midtown when I forgot my tool bag on the back seat in a rush to make showtime. Open and rifle one was an older but babied Carola in Columbia one night when I forgot to lock the door and happened to have parked on the street. Nothing missing. Just a lot of open compartments. Open and rifle two was the wife's current Prius in Carondelet. Again, just a bunch of open compartments. Nothing missing. The only damage we've had was a mirror cover, likely to a contractor late at night. I lock my doors. Always did. You can get a window busted out anywhere. But don't leave valuables out in sight. That's a surefire way to convince someone to get in your car one way or another. Meh. There are worse problems. Though picking glass out of things does make for a bad day.
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PostJul 13, 2017#46

The focus on the central corridor has really obscured the fact that South City is going through a fundamental shift from working and middle class Catholic communities with lots of unionized industrial workers to an area filled with professionals of varying affluence along with a mix of immigrants and retiring baby boomers. The Southwest corner of the City is an incredibly desirable place to live, as people are realizing you can get a similar community experience to Webster Groves or Kirkwood while being in close proximity to all the things that makes urban living great. Also, someone earlier made a very good point about people in St. Louis Hills and the surrounding neighborhoods being vigilant about crime; there is definitely a buy in from people into the future of our neighborhoods and while it sometimes evolves into regrettable NIMBYism, people look out for each other, and brazen criminality is not tolerated.
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PostJul 13, 2017#47

Ebsy wrote: ↑
Jul 13, 2017
 The focus on the central corridor has really obscured the fact that South City is going through a fundamental shift from working and middle class Catholic communities with lots of unionized industrial workers to an area filled with professionals of varying affluence along with a mix of immigrants and retiring baby boomers. The Southwest corner of the City is an incredibly desirable place to live, as people are realizing you can get a similar community experience to Webster Groves or Kirkwood while being in close proximity to all the things that makes urban living great. Also, someone earlier made a very good point about people in St. Louis Hills and the surrounding neighborhoods being vigilant about crime; there is definitely a buy in from people into the future of our neighborhoods and while it sometimes evolves into regrettable NIMBYism, people look out for each other, and brazen criminality is not tolerated.
Many of the neighborhoods in south city are hiring private security (off-duty cops) for extra patrols. I know St. Louis Hills and the Hill both just started it recently
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PostJul 13, 2017#48

just some observations from living in the city for years (i now live all the way out in university city and also had a stint in maplewood). I lived many years (6-7) in the southern part of TGS, before that Debaliviere Place most recently Dogtown. I NEVER ONCE had a crime that directly affected me (car break in, burglary, robbery, etc), maybe i'm just lucky...or cautious (i barricaded my basement door with steel beams against daytime kick-ins when that was a big problem in TGS, etc etc etc).

I have had more problems in the county, where i HAVE had my car broken into (not u-city). the crime issue is a funny one in st. louis.

what i really didn't like was when i would call the non-emergency line and report things like REALLY CLOSE gunshots, or open air drug dealing as I was watching it on the phone from my living room (i'm talking a crew on the corner EVERY DAY ALL DAY CAR AFTER CAR), i was blown off by the operator, or got no response by the PD. I ended up bothering the landlord and a social worker enough (there was a child and a mother involved) that the drug dealing parties simply took their operation right across chippewa to dutchtown around amberg park (and flip us the finger, yell at us, make a hand gun gesture as they still walked back and forth between neighborhoods across chippewa) and the whole thing made us feel like we had to deal with things like this on our own which was b.s.

point being, i felt that STLPD was ineffective, stressed out, and jaded. yes, i believe the NSO was involved at some point. i've never had to worry about this in the more urban core areas of the county i've lived in more recently, the PDs are extremely responsive.

i'd probably not move back to a neighborhood where i think theres a chance i might have to call the city police regularly, because i know that i couldnt count on them all the time. that's not to say that there aren't tons of amazing officers...but the system is jaded and overloaded in some districts.

in my opinion, the city police department needs stations in every neighborhood, with a hyper local presence. these big district stations aren't working right now.
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PostJul 13, 2017#49

in my opinion, the city police department needs stations in every neighborhood, with a hyper local presence. these big district stations aren't working right now.
Totally agree. I think it would be great if there was a local station with a couple officers always at it. They could walk the neighborhood, people could stop in to report stuff.

It needs to be used though. Shaw used to have this from what I'm told, but the officers were never there. They were either always at the district office or out dealing with calls. It won't do much good if there aren't enough officers to staff those locations or they're too busy to be there.
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PostJul 13, 2017#50

pat wrote: ↑
Jul 13, 2017
in my opinion, the city police department needs stations in every neighborhood, with a hyper local presence. these big district stations aren't working right now.
Totally agree. I think it would be great if there was a local station with a couple officers always at it. They could walk the neighborhood, people could stop in to report stuff.

It needs to be used though. Shaw used to have this from what I'm told, but the officers were never there. They were either always at the district office or out dealing with calls. It won't do much good if there aren't enough officers to staff those locations or they're too busy to be there.
yep...there needs to be an everyday rapport with the neighborhood at ALL LEVELS. there needs to be "institutional knowledge" of what is happening where at a much finer grain than just playing cleanup. a few cops should work the same neighborhood every day, FROM that neighborhood.
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