urbanSTL

oakangeles wrote:I'm not trying to make a 1:1 comparison between the two.  They are very different cities and I'm aware of that.  Historically, the Downtown Portland of the 70's is a closer match, before it got hip in the 2000s, when it was an old lumberjack backwater that had seen disinvestment, suburbanization, large urban renewal projects and the demolition of a big part of its historic waterfront in the previous decades.  That was when the more grassroots movements happened which eventually built it into having more high end stores now.   I happened to live there from 2020-25, so that is my personal experience in the covid years when it was a nightly target of Fox News "clutch your pearls" crime expose's and had a collapse of its foot traffic down to I think 15% of its norm.  I do see how recommending some cutesy Portland BS sounds arrogant or out of touch, but thats not really the point I'm trying to make.  What your city does have is 3 big event venues that are large draws that bring people downtown, but are not retaining those people as soon as the event is over because there is a lack of amenities.  Then they go on social media and talk sh*t.  I don't think a weekend festival is the magic bullet to fix downtown, but the city needs to do SOMETHING to improve the experience of visitors or else the negative perception is going to continue and get in the way.  The optics are bad, and large investment firms care about the optics.  

I live in Chicago now, so STL is an easy trip and I've made it twice already.  I would like to go back this summer, but genuinely had a hard time finding things to do Downtown when I was actively looking for things to do.  Even as someone who wants to spend my money in downtown, it's been a struggle and would absolutely push me to put that next visit onto the backburner for another city.  That's the experience I've had, and it is clearly the experience others have had.  St. Louis metro has people, in fact its metro has around 300,000 more people than the Portland Metro.  It's not that there's no people to go downtown, its that they are CHOOSING not to go downtown

oakangeles wrote:1. You're correct, it did not lose population in any substantial amount but it did have disinvestment downtown as money went to the suburbs which lead to nothing but cheap dives, decrepit buildings and porn shops downtown through the 80s.  The city annexed other towns to the east as it sprawled and left downtown to rot, so the population numbers don't tell 100% of the story.  A revitilaztion did have to happen but it was not under the same conditions that STL faces by any stretch because it did not lose its tax base in the same way
I really honestly did not want to make this about Portland because I ALSO feel that they are VERY different cases, but I will touch on one thing at the end which makes me bring it up at all.   And I have seen North St Louis and have done a lot of deep dives on the city's history and I do know that it has lost a staggering amount of its population.  Honestly a much better model/comparison is Chicago, which has had to stave off the effects of de-industrialization and depopulation while fighting to maintain a healthy downtown.  
2. That's tough and I don't disagree with any of it.  The reason I chose to focus on human scale, cheap businesses to push is because of the corporate abandonment that has occurred downtown, which is why I feel that big corporations won't be the ones to come and fix it either.  I also hope AT&T and the Millennium Tower get built/converted and are successful but that's still just one piece of the puzzle when they are.  
3. There are tourist attractions and some really good ones.  Personally, the Campbell House Museum was my kind of place.  It's more the lack of "inbetween" spaces that give a place a true urban feel that affected my experience.  The only reason I brought up Portland was because it is a master at utilizing those kind of low rent but unique spots to keep customers visible to other foot traffic, giving the overall city a more vibrant feel and also giving people something cool and memorable to stumble across.  It prioritizes the pedestrian experience and that is what gives it more lively, visually noticeable foot traffic.  And those places are started and run by everyday people with a vision and not giant corporate conglomerates or an edict from City Hall.  
I got more of that feeling walking around the Central West End so I know it's possible within city limits even if that has a lot to with the college population in the area.
The one point I'll leave off with before I finally go tf to bed is that there clearly is some kind of unmet demand downtown.  If the consensus from people visiting is that they WANT something and they cannot FIND that thing, then that is an untapped market that needs to be met for Downtown to make any kind of forward progress

Honestly I think we think a lot of the same things.  It would just be nice to see more people walking on the streets and I don't think that's a hot take

StlAlex wrote: ↑

4:09 PM - 16 days ago

The CWE is anchored by Barnes Jewish Hospital, Washington University's Medical School, and several tech companies like Microsoft that provide not only corporate investment, but a consistent stream of residents who want to live near their workplace. It's kinda exactly what I'm referring to for what downtown needs.

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oakangeles wrote:

StlAlex wrote: ↑

4:09 PM - 16 days ago

The CWE is anchored by Barnes Jewish Hospital, Washington University's Medical School, and several tech companies like Microsoft that provide not only corporate investment, but a consistent stream of residents who want to live near their workplace. It's kinda exactly what I'm referring to for what downtown needs.

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And downtown is anchored by 17 hotels (according to google maps), two sports arenas, a convention center, 2-5 transit stops depending on your definition of "downtown" and a world class, one of a kind attraction in the Arch. It has 10.000 permanent residents and according to your older post, 5 million visitors a year yet it feels forgotten about while the CWE honestly feels like the true city center

What makes downtowns special is that they are the nexus of the collective cultures that the city as a whole has to offer.  My suggestions for events weren't just meant to be a "this would be a fun thing," they were very specifically meant as a way to bring the culture of the city at large to the doorsteps of both out of towners and people looking to relocate to apartments in places like Lacledes Landing etc. If St Louis only has one shot to present itself to visitors, it is failing at that opportunity.  People choose to be in the heart of the city because it offers a lifestyle that suburbs could never provide.  Sometimes that feeling is near intangible and is never something that will show up on a Q3 profits spreadsheet or be brought up in corporate board meetings, but it makes all the difference toward the desirability of a location.  I can't offer any magic solutions, but I can say that it is the missing "it factor" which I've seen be the difference between a vibrant, lived in neighborhood or just a collection of tall glass boxes.  I honestly don't have any more to offer other than that

StlAlex wrote: ↑

6:36 PM - 16 days ago

oakangeles wrote:

StlAlex wrote: ↑

4:09 PM - 16 days ago

The CWE is anchored by Barnes Jewish Hospital, Washington University's Medical School, and several tech companies like Microsoft that provide not only corporate investment, but a consistent stream of residents who want to live near their workplace. It's kinda exactly what I'm referring to for what downtown needs.

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And downtown is anchored by 17 hotels (according to google maps), two sports arenas, a convention center, 2-5 transit stops depending on your definition of "downtown" and a world class, one of a kind attraction in the Arch. It has 10.000 permanent residents and according to your older post, 5 million visitors a year yet it feels forgotten about while the CWE honestly feels like the true city center

What makes downtowns special is that they are the nexus of the collective cultures that the city as a whole has to offer.  My suggestions for events weren't just meant to be a "this would be a fun thing," they were very specifically meant as a way to bring the culture of the city at large to the doorsteps of both out of towners and people looking to relocate to apartments in places like Lacledes Landing etc. If St Louis only has one shot to present itself to visitors, it is failing at that opportunity.  People choose to be in the heart of the city because it offers a lifestyle that suburbs could never provide.  Sometimes that feeling is near intangible and is never something that will show up on a Q3 profits spreadsheet or be brought up in corporate board meetings, but it makes all the difference toward the desirability of a location.  I can't offer any magic solutions, but I can say that it is the missing "it factor" which I've seen be the difference between a vibrant, lived in neighborhood or just a collection of tall glass boxes.  I honestly don't have any more to offer other than that

Let's put it this way, if Barnes and Washington University disinvested from the CWE, it would have a steep decline and would cease being what it is today.

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jtlq53 wrote: ↑

6:38 PM - 16 days ago

So I'll preface this by saying I recognize that other similar-sized cities have some vibrant neighborhoods/streets.

But given STL's history and geography, it's a bit of an outlier. As the population exploded, the city developed nodes/districts outside of downtown; and given that in the late 1800s, some cities had geographic constraints (Philly, Boston, NYC, Pittsburgh), STL could just continue to grow in 3 directions unimpeded without bodies of. Even a look at STL's interwar skyline looks different than these, because the city didn't need to be AS vertical (yes, I know it was dense). 

So, museums, theaters, universities, other industries (brewing), arts, etc. were located outside of downtown. Throw Clayton's growth on top of that as a corporate competitor. The "collective culture" that you speak of exists diffusely in STL because of geography and history (re: racism and classism, undoubtedly). Add railyards bisecting the city, corporate interests underinvested in the urban core, and the existing institutions outside of downtown, and it's not a surprise that downtown STL can be sleepy. Not to mention, it isn't really at the geographic/populated center of the region like cities such as Charlotte or Phoenix (which grow in a circle around the oldest parts of town. I imagine some of the cities you're comparing it to didn't have the same patterns of decline, and/or are relatively newer cities (even like KC) that grew around a centralized DT. I'm not sure where you're from, but it's not unrelated to Los Angeles, where the culture/institutions aren't concentrated in the center of the city. Not apples to apples comparison, but there are some echoes in the sprawl. Appreciate you giving a you know what about downtown, and there are people who are working to achieve some of what you're suggesting.

As STLAlex has said, it is making strides, but until moneyed interests from our corporate community buck up, that growth does have a bit of a ceiling IMO

oakangeles wrote: ↑

7:34 PM - 16 days ago

soulardx wrote: ↑

7:13 PM - 16 days ago

Specific to downtown - without getting into the systemic reasons it got so bad, an easier win would be to simply make the existing downtown *look* better.  the state of the railway exchange and the block around it are a colossal embarrassment. That building is an architectural gem. Even when vacant, the facade should be well lit, cleaned and protected.  ATT tower deserves some of the same.  All-in-all, just ensure that, even absent vibrant foot traffic, downtown STL looks good.

So feel free to shoot this down with prejudice if you think it's a bad idea, but i was thinking about if projecting images onto the Railway Exchange Building would be a good idea, similar to the way images are projected onto Merchandise Mart in Chicago.  On one hand, it would highlight the blight that exists, but it would at least look cool and make it feel like it wasn't just forgotten about.  Similarly I think the Orpheum having blue,purple and red lights under those statues would be a hauntingly cool vibe.  Maybe it's just my West Coast hippie side showing, but when something is broken just turn it into an art display 

stldotage wrote: ↑

1:47 PM - 15 days ago

The Central West End feels like an actual neighborhood whereas downtown feels like everything but a neighborhood (a business district, entertainment district, civic center, etc.). The residential portions of the CWE bleed mostly seamlessly into the commercial/mixed use portions. It has attractive lighting and well maintained sidewalks/roads. It has a pretty reliable tree canopy (tornadoes notwithstanding).

Downtown needs all of that so, so much. 

Here's an example of an already fairly nice/attractive downtown block -- the 900 block of Olive:

Olive.jpg
Yet it is still lacking in a sense of investment/placemaking/design/basic infrastructure. Here's an AI stab at adding those (credit: Nano Banana 2/Google):

image_d6843086.pngSo much of it is about basic maintenance and infrastructure. And also adding human-scale architecture:

Here's an example of that (11th and Locust):

Locust.jpg

And with some nice row house infill and street trees and such:


image_11865d9d (1).pngIf I were a billionaire this streetscape would already exist right in that spot lol.

stldotage wrote: ↑

1:47 PM - 15 days ago

The Central West End feels like an actual neighborhood whereas downtown feels like everything but a neighborhood (a business district, entertainment district, civic center, etc.). The residential portions of the CWE bleed mostly seamlessly into the commercial/mixed use portions. It has attractive lighting and well maintained sidewalks/roads. It has a pretty reliable tree canopy (tornadoes notwithstanding).

Downtown needs all of that so, so much. 

Here's an example of an already fairly nice/attractive downtown block -- the 900 block of Olive:

Olive.jpg
Yet it is still lacking in a sense of investment/placemaking/design/basic infrastructure. Here's an AI stab at adding those (credit: Nano Banana 2/Google):

image_d6843086.pngSo much of it is about basic maintenance and infrastructure. And also adding human-scale architecture:

Here's an example of that (11th and Locust):

Locust.jpg

And with some nice row house infill and street trees and such:


image_11865d9d (1).pngIf I were a billionaire this streetscape would already exist right in that spot lol.

soulardx wrote: ↑

1:59 PM - 15 days ago

stldotage wrote: ↑

1:47 PM - 15 days ago

The Central West End feels like an actual neighborhood whereas downtown feels like everything but a neighborhood (a business district, entertainment district, civic center, etc.). The residential portions of the CWE bleed mostly seamlessly into the commercial/mixed use portions. It has attractive lighting and well maintained sidewalks/roads. It has a pretty reliable tree canopy (tornadoes notwithstanding).

Downtown needs all of that so, so much. 

Here's an example of an already fairly nice/attractive downtown block -- the 900 block of Olive:

Olive.jpg
Yet it is still lacking in a sense of investment/placemaking/design/basic infrastructure. Here's an AI stab at adding those (credit: Nano Banana 2/Google):

image_d6843086.pngSo much of it is about basic maintenance and infrastructure. And also adding human-scale architecture:

Here's an example of that (11th and Locust):

Locust.jpg

And with some nice row house infill and street trees and such:


image_11865d9d (1).pngIf I were a billionaire this streetscape would already exist right in that spot lol.

I agree with and endorse all of this.

I do want to go back to disorder - mentally ill street people and drug addicts need to be removed.  yes, there are some in the CWE but, in my experience, the number of folks downtown are even more pronounced.  I don't have a funding mechanism or long-term solution (you know, the hardest parts!) but simply removing those people will go a long way toward improving everyone's downtown experience. 

BarryGlick wrote: ↑

2:47 PM - 15 days ago

removed? to where? let me guess NIM (your)BY

stldotage wrote: ↑

3:12 PM - 15 days ago

Another fun one at 10th and Spruce:

Spruce.jpg

Nano Banana 2's After Image:
image_15c8d1a2.pngI'll stop if people hate these but they help me imagine "what could be".