urbanSTL

delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote:Lots and lots of commentary coming from many different angles about how dead downtown StL is after this Mets clip

Seeing lots of it from people now that were just there for the NCAA tournament saying things such as it’s the most dead downtown they’ve ever been to, that it was so eerily quiet, that the only people they saw were at the game

This was during a time where 8 teams of fanbases were down there (including Missouri) and a large volleyball tournament and it was still apparently that bad

Keep in mind most of these people were from Lexington/Louisville KY, Indianapolis IN, Des Moines IA and they are saying those places are more vibrant

That’s bad and it seems to be a universal take

Ugh


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This is the most common impression for anyone visiting downtown. It’s not good, and pretending otherwise is just going to prolong actually fixing it. It doesn’t need to be the greatest downtown in the world, but my god it should at least make a solid impression to people from Kentucky and Tennessee. It gets really annoying having to explain to everyone that St. Louis is still a great city outside of having a very dead downtown.

My argument is that St. Louis shines in its neighborhoods, not in downtown. It can shine in downtown, and eventually will. But no other downtown in the Midwest has the number of large vacant buildings downtown STL has. By sheer size, even Detroit doesn’t. That hinders a lot of things but get them taken care of, and vibrancy increases a bit as does the perception of safety.

But the Mets broadcaster saying that comment was done in bad faith on his part. It was meant to start the debate that it did. The only other people who routinely pump out anti-downtown/city posts are the pretentious residents of West County and St. Charles County (who themselves offer no potential solutions but rather complain about “the communists”, “Democrats”, and “the blacks”.

But the unfortunate part that StL leaders and everyone living in the region needs to realize is that downtown is what people from the outside see. They don’t see the neighborhoods, they don’t see the suburbs, they see downtown first and primarily the whole time

These people travel for some event hosted here downtown and see nobody besides the other people they are at the event with

And A LOT of people are having this impression. It makes StL a one time visit for them


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Ironic she repeats propaganda about NYC

Detroit has a business sector who has some level of care for the city, St. Louis simply does not. There's nothing any politicians can do about that.

We just have to hope population demand stays up and projects like Millennium and AT&T keep moving forward.

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Detroit recast its narrative behind a billionaire savior. Does St. Louis have one of its own?
https://archive.ph/CUXPC

delmar2debaliviere2downtown wrote: ↑

10:04 PM - 19 days ago

Lots and lots of commentary coming from many different angles about how dead downtown StL is after this Mets clip

Seeing lots of it from people now that were just there for the NCAA tournament saying things such as it’s the most dead downtown they’ve ever been to, that it was so eerily quiet, that the only people they saw were at the game

This was during a time where 8 teams of fanbases were down there (including Missouri) and a large volleyball tournament and it was still apparently that bad

Hear me out on this, since it might be a bit long winded, but as someone who has lived downtown in multiple cities across the country and also seen them fall & recover from Covid slumps, I honestly think the fatal flaw and the easiest recovery method for STL is having events that are VISIBLE and with low barriers to entry.  Lots of cities suffer from the 'suburbs to the concert hall/sports stadium' syndrome, where people get in their car -> go to event -> stay inside behind walls or stadium bleachers -> leave en masse and complain about traffic.  This doesn't help foot traffic because its a simple get in, get out.  Also, it doesn't engage local residents unless theyre willing to pay $100 or more for a ticket while also not helping the optics because everyone is inside.  
The things that I HAVE seen work are events that prompt people to walk around and explore before or after.  These are usually outside events that can be seen from the sidewalk(not behind a stadium/convention center wall) and with lower barriers of entry that can draw locals as well.  More importantly, they tend to have a much lower overhead because it can be events that just need some tents, speakers and some food carts etc.  If the tournament were paired up with a street fair or something, that could flip the script very quickly.  Whatever the city's next step is, in my honest outsiders opinion, its events needs to have 1) low overhead and therefore a low entry price 2) public visibility 3) seasonal appeal and potential for good optics on social media (never underestimate the power of a good selfie & 4) be funded by & cross promote local businesses rather than waiting for big corporate money to roll in 
Downtown could be a great place for events that highlight the rich culture of the city as a whole while bringing it all to one location

Outside of downtown Detroit still looks apocalyptic however they have civic leaders and business leaders that truly want a vibrant downtown & a rebuilding Detroit St.Louis civic leaders are the complete opposite very anti city very anti downtown…. Getting a business to even stay downtown seems like pulling every tooth out of your mouth…


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PlatinumBlues wrote:Outside of downtown Detroit still looks apocalyptic however they have civic leaders and business leaders that truly want a vibrant downtown & a rebuilding Detroit St.Louis civic leaders are the complete opposite very anti city very anti downtown…. Getting a business to even stay downtown seems like pulling every tooth out of your mouth…


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This is true but I also wouldn't have said STL was ever as bad as Detroit. What DET shows is how easy it would be to change the narrative if we had just a few big businesses take a serious stake in the future of downtown. Instead companies like RGA, Bunge, and WWT build suburban office park style campuses that offer basically nothing to the broader health of the region.

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Detroit (and a few other metros) demonstrate that perspective about a city is almost entirely focused on downtown

The “Detroit is great and it’s back” narrative is because they basically got one street into great shape that looks like the legitimate center of a major US metro (Woodward Ave). They’ve focused on an area about the size of Busch/BPV to Enterprise and just went all in on investing in its infrastructure and beautification and incentivizing retail and development in that area.

You go couple blocks off that stretch and it’s parking lots and vacancies. It’s actually pretty small “downtown”

It’s the truest example that a big city’s traditional downtown/center is the biggest factor in a city’s perception


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Downtown Detroit is clean & vibrant even the new Hudson tower adds to Detroits so call comeback you can tell they’ve invested a lot into their downtown where as downtown St.Louis looks stale dated & suffers from disinvestment


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I really, genuinely can't believe people here are talking about how EASY Detroit had it, like the city didn't go bankrupt a decade ago or have 60 years of disinvestment before that.  The whole "they were a nepo baby with advantages we didn't have" type vibe is ludicrous.  Detroit clawed its way back and should be the number one example of how your city should follow suit.  And acting like their success is all on Woodward is bullsh*t.  Look at Brush Park, which not only rehabbed all the crumbling mansions there, but is building very dense neighborhoods around them.  The neighborhood around Michigan Central has nightlife, events, restaurants and a generally fun vibe in a place that 10 years ago was a place you wouldn't be caught dead in. What Detroit had was creative, community centric solutions to their problems.  
I wanted to start posting on this site because I had been to Downtown St. Louis and seen potential.  I wanted to share things I've seen that have worked in other cities, but all I've seen over the last few months of following these threads is this 'Pity Party & the Infinite Circlejerk of Sadness' going on.  
FFS When I called my wife on my first trip to St Louis I described your city as "on hospice care" but I always kinda meant it as a joke until reading this support group of a forum. 
No corporation or venture capital daddy is gonna come in and save your city.  Every Rust Belt city that came back did so through fighting to save itself, not waiting around for a handout.  It's DIY or die out here, don't believe any different

oakangeles wrote:I really, genuinely can't believe people here are talking about how EASY Detroit had it, like the city didn't go bankrupt a decade ago or have 60 years of disinvestment before that.  The whole "they were a nepo baby with advantages we didn't have" type vibe is ludicrous.  Detroit clawed its way back and should be the number one example of how your city should follow suit.  And acting like their success is all on Woodward is bullsh*t.  Look at Brush Park, which not only rehabbed all the crumbling mansions there, but is building very dense neighborhoods around them.  The neighborhood around Michigan Central has nightlife, events, restaurants and a generally fun vibe in a place that 10 years ago was a place you wouldn't be caught dead in. What Detroit had was creative, community centric solutions to their problems.  
I wanted to start posting on this site because I was apparently the one and only outsider who's ever been to Downtown St. Louis and seen potential.  I wanted to share things I've seen that have worked in other cities, but all I've seen over the last few months of following these threads is this 'Pity Party & the Infinite Circlejerk of Sadness' going on.  
FFS When I called my wife on my first trip to St Louis I described your city as "on hospice care" but I always kinda meant it as a joke until reading this support group of a forum. 
No corporation or venture capital daddy is gonna come in and save your city.  Every Rust Belt city that came back did so through fighting to save itself, not waiting around for a handout.  It's DIY or die out here, don't believe any different

Have you considered that maybe those on here have more knowledge on St. Louis than you and how we talk about it is probably far more accurate than what you can interpret based on visiting one part of the city?

Are you aware of the city-county divorce? Are you aware of the existence of Clayton, a 2nd downtown with 6 million square feet of office space and 30,000+ workers? That's the landing spot for the majority of companies that leave downtown. Are you aware that St. Louis has a very strong suburban office market in addition to the two downtowns? Are you aware that only 1 of STL's 7 Fortune 500 companies is located downtown? And that's a stretch to be considered truly downtown.

This is all very easy to say and actually do when you have a billionaire moving his companies downtown, paying workers more to cover the earnings tax, and literally building vanity skyscrapers just to generate more good news. Detroit even had companies like Fifth Third Bank move offices downtown AND invest $85 million in the city. Detroit LITERALLY had "daddy" come in and start making good things happen.

Detroit's model literally proves you need capital interests to play ball and have a shared interest in the success of the city, which is something St. Louis hasn't had in several decades.

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I'm very much aware of the city/county divide and do not take lightly how much it has affected the city.  I also have been to Clayton as well as the CWE, Lafayette, Soulard, Benton Park, Debalivier Place, Midtown & Old North St Louis.  I don't claim to be an expert nor anything but an outsider with outside impressions but I have done my homework and I do know what I have seen in other cities that works or doesn't. The Downtown recoveries that I've seen post Covid were not based around new office towers and probably never will be again.  

The biggest lesson I've learned though is that people do not care about the why.  Visitors do not factor in the history or the trials and tribulations that your city has been through.  They care about what they see on the street.  Plenty of cities have been able to regrow foottraffic even with stubbornly high office vacancies still being a problem by doing things that made people WANT to be there.  I'm not even sure if people in this forum know why they want to be downtown other than the fact that they 'want to want' to be downtown.  Without some way to generate demand, there will be no demand to invest and nothing happens.  It literally is fake it til you make it in most places these days and waiting until something comes along does not move the needle

oakangeles wrote:I'm very much aware of the city/county divide and do not take lightly how much it has affected the city.  I also have been to Clayton as well as the CWE, Lafayette, Soulard, Benton Park, Debalivier Place, Midtown & Old North St Louis.  I don't claim to be an expert nor anything but an outsider with outside impressions but I have done my homework and I do know what I have seen in other cities that works or doesn't.  
The Downtown recoveries that I've seen post Covid were not based around new office towers and probably never will be again.  
The biggest lesson I've learned though is that people do not care about the why.  Visitors do not factor in the history or the trials and tribulations that you city has been through.  They care about what they see on the street.  Plenty of cities have been able to regrow foottraffic even with stubbornly high office vacancies still being a problem by doing things that made people WANT to be there.  I'm not even sure if people in this forum even know why they want to be downtown other than the fact that they want to want to be downtown.  Without some way to generate demand, there will be no demand to invest and nothing happens.  It literally is fake it til you make it in most places these days and waiting until something comes along does not move the needle

Again, you simply do not have a thurough grasp of just how bad the office situation is in St. Louis. St. Louis had covid-level destruction to the office market BEFORE covid happened. Nearly all the major banks are not based downtown. 6 of the 7 F500 companies are not based downtown. Off the top of my head, there's only 4 F1000 companies based downtown out of 17 in the region.

I think most people on here agree that office is not how cities will grow their downtown areas in the future, but there is no future downtown where office is not part of the equation. Right now, STL's "most occupied" major buildings are in the low to mid 80%s. Many are 50-70%. There is no possible future for downtown STL where the current rates of office occupancy remain. Certainly no "comeback."

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Then i guess there is nothing that can be done.  I honestly don't want to hate on your city.  I really liked a lot of things about it, and I do love an underdog story.  I've done plenty of research about the disastrous effects of urban renewal and depopulation and I see how the threads of that run through it's problems today.  On the flip side I've learned of the resilience and all the progress that places like Midtown have had in recent years.  But I will be honest, the vibe of giving up is something that even people who visit can get a tangible 6th sense of.  There is a different feeling between empty and abandoned, and downtown feels abandoned despite the fact that I know theres been a big increase in residential population recently.  If there isn't a way to bring the people who are already there out of their homes or offices or hotel rooms and onto the street, there is no way for visitors to have a better impression of their surroundings and that abandoned vibe is going to stick around even if all the offices and all the hotels magically hit 100%

oakangeles wrote:Then i guess there is nothing that can be done.  I honestly don't want to hate on your city.  I really liked a lot of things about it, and I do love an underdog story.  I've done plenty of research about the disastrous effects of urban renewal and depopulation and I see how the threads of that run through it's problems today.  On the flip side I've learned of the resilience and all the progress that places like Midtown have had in recent years.  But I will be honest, the vibe of giving up is something that even people who visit can get a tangible 6th sense of.  There is a different feeling between empty and abandoned, and downtown feels abandoned despite the fact that I know theres been a big increase in residential population recently.  If there isn't a way to bring the people who are already there out of their homes or offices or hotel rooms and onto the street, there is no way for visitors to have a better impression of their surroundings and that abandoned vibe is going to stick around even if all the offices and all the hotels magically hit 100%

Correct that's my point. STL has had conservative pro-business mayors for 20+ years and for the last 4 years a leftist and now a conservative pro-business. None of then have gotten meaningful backing from the business sector for transformational change downtown. Reality is there's no amount of crime reduction or tax breaks that can happen to spur a comeback if the capital interests is totally uninterested in it. To this day people claim downtown crime is rampant despite it being extraordinarily low and we are never debating if we should give tax breaks or not, the debate is 90% or 95% for 15 or 20 years.

I mean we see right now, the city is making meaningful pedestrian improvements, in large part because we have literally had people die downtown due to traffic violence, and all the business sector wants to do is b**** and moan about it. Utterly unserious group of morons that don't know what's best for them. And now they're worried about STL's slow growth as if they aren't literally the reason it's slow.

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oakangeles wrote:I really, genuinely can't believe people here are talking about how EASY Detroit had it, like the city didn't go bankrupt a decade ago or have 60 years of disinvestment before that.  The whole "they were a nepo baby with advantages we didn't have" type vibe is ludicrous.  Detroit clawed its way back and should be the number one example of how your city should follow suit.  And acting like their success is all on Woodward is bullsh*t.  Look at Brush Park, which not only rehabbed all the crumbling mansions there, but is building very dense neighborhoods around them.  The neighborhood around Michigan Central has nightlife, events, restaurants and a generally fun vibe in a place that 10 years ago was a place you wouldn't be caught dead in. What Detroit had was creative, community centric solutions to their problems.  
I wanted to start posting on this site because I had been to Downtown St. Louis and seen potential.  I wanted to share things I've seen that have worked in other cities, but all I've seen over the last few months of following these threads is this 'Pity Party & the Infinite Circlejerk of Sadness' going on.  
FFS When I called my wife on my first trip to St Louis I described your city as "on hospice care" but I always kinda meant it as a joke until reading this support group of a forum. 
No corporation or venture capital daddy is gonna come in and save your city.  Every Rust Belt city that came back did so through fighting to save itself, not waiting around for a handout.  It's DIY or die out here, don't believe any different

Detroit has never had it easy however they’ve manage to change the narrative in their favor. Detroit’s urban fabric has been decimated by abandonment & likely we’ll never be what it once was however they’ve manage are trying & fighting to make better moreover they have civic leaders that are willing to invest to make that happen St.Louis has done some decent investments sadly when they do invest companies still move out to the burbs it’s like they quietly take & steal the incentives the city has given them only to move out to the burbs all along. Maybe Cordish & Goldman “ think that’s the new owner of AT&T building” will help move St.Louis in a better path to being invested in. St.Louis is not an ugly city in fact it’s a beautiful city very underrated very undervalued very under appreciated that suffered from devastating abandonment. It needs that extra boost to move it forward. Beatification goes along ways as well. Hopefully we’ve neared our low point & can only rise up…


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I honestly don't disagree with any of that.  I absolutely see the effects disinvestment has done and the challenge of working with a state that has thrown a wrench in any plans for recovery.  The thing which I've seen in other cities that I don't see in yours a is grassroots effort to save downtown though.  The point I wanted to make, expressed poorly or not, is that even when governments and the big corporations have given up on downtowns because it doesn't match theirQ2 projection profits, the things that I've seen turn things around were community backed events that brought life and foot traffic back  to the urban core.  I think it's more than an uphill battle for the city, but when all I hear is that Downtown is facing insurmountable odds, that vibe is infectious.  I dgaf if corporations or politicians have given up,  It's the vibe that the community has too that makes things feel bleak.
Tbh I'm about to be out of town for a bit so I won't be commenting for a minute but I think there is space for community backed events downtown that make it feel more alive and well loved which I'm just not seeing even when I'm looking for it.  The rich culture of your city is not on display when it could be.  If youre interested in any hearing any examples when i get back Id be happy to share them. If not Ill stfu and leave it be.   

oakangeles wrote:I honestly don't disagree with any of that.  I absolutely see the effects disinvestment has done and the challenge of working with a state that has thrown a wrench in any plans for recovery.  The thing which I've seen in other cities that I don't see in yours a is grassroots effort to save downtown though.  The point I wanted to make, expressed poorly or not, is that even when governments and the big corporations have given up on downtowns because it doesn't match theirQ2 projection profits, the things that I've seen turn things around were community backed events that brought life and foot traffic back  to the urban core.  I think it's more than an uphill battle for the city, but when all I hear is that Downtown is facing insurmountable odds, that vibe is infectious.  I dgaf if corporations or politicians have given up,  It's the vibe that the community has too that makes things feel bleak.
Tbh I'm about to be out of town for a bit so I won't be commenting for a minute but I think there is space for community backed events downtown that make it feel more alive and well loved which I'm just not seeing even when I'm looking for it.  The rich culture of your city is not on display when it could be.  If youre interested in any hearing any examples when i get back Id be happy to share them. If not Ill stfu and leave it be.   

You should always share your opinion whether others agree to disagree I for one get what you’re saying & agree with you.


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when if ever will downtown/west  stl going to get another grocery store?
United Grocery scores UG support to take over downtown KCK grocery store
United Grocery aims to take over the former Merc Co-op space at 501 Minnesota Ave. in downtown Kansas City, Kansas.

Getting another grocery between Jefferson & 14th would be huge for livability downtown


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PlatinumBlues wrote: ↑

8:34 PM - 18 days ago

You should always share your opinion whether others agree to disagree I for one  get what you’re saying & agree with you.

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Thanks Platinum, I do apologize for rage baiting/being kind of a prick.  I know what it's like to have cities I love be browbeaten by media publications (usually the right wing kind) that have no concerns for context or understanding the legit problems that a place faces.  It sucks and I understand the passion and anger that it generates from the people that care. But if any group of people can bring positive change to the city, this group here is a good start because you're all clearly invested for the right reasons.  

I do think that the way forward, or at least the first baby step toward reviving downtown is through temporary events that are low cost and bring visible foot traffic which can later feed into permanent business.  I saw this succeed when I first lived in Portland, saw the devastating effect of them going away/being limited during Covid, and then the positive cycle returning once they came back. Some of those popups turned into real stores, and now legit businesses like UniQlo, Ben Bridge Jewelers, a B of A headquarters etc are returning to the middle of downtown in a spot that was a ghost town a few years ago.  To StlAlex's point earlier, the office situation seemed bad for you guys precovid, but the progress i saw in Portland was while still having a very high office vacancy rate, yet foot traffic/ hotel occupancy are now back to around 75-80% of their 2019 peaks. 

Considering the number of hotels and the appeal of the Arch, I do think downtown STL has a positive future for entertainment/ residential.  Some of the things I was brainstorming for events that could work were:
- Partnering with the new Card Vault store to do Cardinals meet & greets/ signed merch giveaways before or after games at Kiener Plaza
- Doing a vintage motorcycle/classic car parade along Market with Moto Museum as a sponsor.  Would be cool to have old STL blues music playing or maybe a cover band with a stage in Poelker Park blasting the classics
- An STL City SC charity game under the Arch
- Having the SLU theatre dept. team up with the Fox to do outside plays in the summer with the backgrounds projected against a large screen on the side of the Kiener Garages 
- A seasonal minigolf course in Sculpture Park
- Teaming up with the World Chess Hall to do a chess tournament under the Arch with giant chess pieces
- An outdoor BBQ competition between Bogarts, Pappy's etc with the winner every year getting bragging rights across the city
- "Cherokee Days Downtown" where some of the vintage stores have a market in one of the parks
- A similar market with all the Italian restaurants from the Hill
- A soul food festival featuring @ Monroe, Gourmet Soul etc
- An entertainment park similar to the Monroe St. Midway in *sorry* Detroit

I also think permanent food carts on the 9th st side of Old Post Office Plaza would make it into a nice town square type location where people can sit and have lunch on the steps
On the more 'wishful thinking' side, a laser show or projection against the Arch or a giant mural across the levees would just look amazing

I know this is all easier said than done, but when compared to the massive investments it takes to renovate old buildings or build new skyscrapers I think it's a pretty easy price tag to swallow. It also would create synergy[hate that term] with & promotion for local businesses rather than the profits going to some corporate headquarters somewhere else. I've genuinely seen Farmers Markets do more to activate a downtown space than billion dollar stadium developments, so thats my reasoning for thinking this is the way to go 

oakangeles wrote:

PlatinumBlues wrote: ↑

8:34 PM - 18 days ago

You should always share your opinion whether others agree to disagree I for one  get what you’re saying & agree with you.

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Thanks Platinum, I do apologize for rage baiting/being kind of a prick.  I know what it's like to have cities I love be browbeaten by media publications (usually the right wing kind) that have no concerns for context or understanding the legit problems that a place faces.  It sucks and I understand the passion and anger that it generates from the people that care. But if any group of people can bring positive change to the city, this group here is a good start because you're all clearly invested for the right reasons.  

I do think that the way forward, or at least the first baby step toward reviving downtown is through temporary events that are low cost and bring visible foot traffic which can later feed into permanent business.  I saw this succeed when I first lived in Portland, saw the devastating effect of them going away/being limited during Covid, and then the positive cycle returning once they came back. Some of those popups turned into real stores, and now legit businesses like UniQlo, Ben Bridge Jewelers, a B of A headquarters etc are returning to the middle of downtown in a spot that was a ghost town a few years ago.  To StlAlex's point earlier, the office situation seemed bad for you guys precovid, but the progress i saw in Portland was while still having a very high office vacancy rate, yet foot traffic/ hotel occupancy are now back to around 75-80% of their 2019 peaks. 

Considering the number of hotels and the appeal of the Arch, I do think downtown STL has a positive future for entertainment/ residential.  Some of the things I was brainstorming for events that could work were:
- Partnering with the new Card Vault store to do Cardinals meet & greets/ signed merch giveaways before or after games at Kiener Plaza
- Doing a vintage motorcycle/classic car parade along Market with Moto Museum as a sponsor.  Would be cool to have old STL blues music playing or maybe a cover band with a stage in Poelker Park blasting the classics
- An STL City SC charity game under the Arch
- Having the SLU theatre dept. team up with the Fox to do outside plays in the summer with the backgrounds projected against a large screen on the side of the Kiener Garages 
- A seasonal minigolf course in Sculpture Park
- Teaming up with the World Chess Hall to do a chess tournament under the Arch with giant chess pieces
- An outdoor BBQ competition between Bogarts, Pappy's etc with the winner every year getting bragging rights across the city
- "Cherokee Days Downtown" where some of the vintage stores have a market in one of the parks
- A similar market with all the Italian restaurants from the Hill
- A soul food festival featuring @ Monroe, Gourmet Soul etc
- An entertainment park similar to the Monroe St. Midway in *sorry* Detroit

I also think permanent food carts on the 9th st side of Old Post Office Plaza would make it into a nice town square type location where people can sit and have lunch on the steps
On the more 'wishful thinking' side, a laser show or projection against the Arch or a giant mural across the levees would just look amazing

I know this is all easier said than done, but when compared to the massive investments it takes to renovate old buildings or build new skyscrapers I think it's a pretty easy price tag to swallow. It also would create synergy[hate that term] with & promotion for local businesses rather than the profits going to some corporate headquarters somewhere else. I've genuinely seen Farmers Markets do more to activate a downtown space than billion dollar stadium developments, so thats my reasoning for thinking this is the way to go 

Again, your problem is largely ignorance.

Portland really can't be compared to STL because it never had the era of decline STL (and Detroit) had. Portland is at its peak population right now (or close to it). It's downtown population (1 sq mi) is over 12,000 while STL's (2 sq mi) is ~10,000, their downtown also never had the massive exodus of capital and destruction of built environment that STL's had. As a result, they have a "less impressive" skyline but way more urban buildings that make the entire neighborhood cohesive. DTP's surrounding neighborhoods are also much more populated and cohesive than STL's.

The Portland comparison just gets worse the more I look into it. DOWNTOWN PORTLAND still manages to sustain a Nordstroms, Apple Store, Zara, Louis Vuitton, H&M, Gucci, Saint Laurent, Tiffany & Co, Raising Canes, and several other luxary stores I don't even recognize. Reminder: We are happy that we got a Domino's and Aunti Anne's in recent years. The downtown STL mall closed in 2006 and downtown's last department store closed in 2014. Even the mall that historically leeched city shopping lost its Nordstroms just recently. While I'm sure this was a good faith comparison, it is pretty offensive when you look at just how strong and supported downtown Portland is and trying to make a comparison to STL. It's totally incomparable.

Finally, a lot of your suggestions for "small events" downtown to draw people are being done- they just do not work to make sustained change. Between the Dome, Busch, Enterprise, Stifel, and Energizer, there are hundreds of events per year drawing more than 5 million people per year. The Arch adds another few million, Ballpark Village hosts a healthy number of concerts and corporate events, there's winter festivities at Kiener Plaza which includes an ice rink, over the summer there always seems to be something going on at Kiener Plaza or Washington Ave. Food truck events are relatively common. Can there be more? Sure. But these things do not generate the sustained change the way having moderate corporate investment would.

My hope is that if we are able to see the Millennium redevelopment and AT&T redevelopment come to fruition, that will spark the type of good news and momentum needed to start getting the sustained change we have long found elusive. AKA: Large corporate interests investing large amounts of money in downtown ($700M for Millennium and $350M for AT&T). Those developments are targeting higher income residents who will demand more retail and food establishments closer to where they live. Just getting more on-brand businesses would help the perception of downtown.

This isn't food trucks or mini concert events. If we already had a manageable baseline like Portland, maybe we could talk about that. But that just sounds like using a fire extinguisher on a wild fire.

Edit: Another things I'm sure you'd suggest is the city subsidizing small businesses with grants to open downtown, and once again, that's a thing they've been doing for several years now. It just does not move the needle the way STL needs the needle moved.

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