This is the major problem for downtown. There is nothing drawing the average St. Louis family downtown outside of sports and events. There is zero shopping, very few great restaurants, and all of the museums are in Forest Park. It’s just not a place for families to come spend a day unless they’re doing a sporting event or the occasional trip to the City Museum/Union Station.PlatinumBlues wrote:Reading some of the comments they say there’s nothing down there no reason to go unless there’s an event etc….I get the feeling people either don’t want to go downtown or downtown is lacking in many amenities. I’ll go with the latter there’s just nothing really drawing people downtown outside of the usual events. If there was more shopping options like target tj max ross etc….
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The shot in the video has trees with green leafs on them. It wasn’t even live nor this week or yearPlatinumBlues wrote: ↑3:09 PM - 21 days agoIsn’t Keiner Plaza under renovation I wouldn’t expect many people to be around while there’s construction going on there besides that video is very dated & not current cause the trees aren’t even fully budded yet. So they’re basically using a old video to make a comment about downtown… Yeah we don’t have the most lively downtown but if they are going to make assumptions use a current video & not a video from last year or so.
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Sorry to be irritable but is this news to anyone on this forum? The lack of foot traffic Downtown has been an issue for decades at this point and yet I feel like every few months folks are finding out this is a problem for the first time.
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I think the point is that Kiener Plaza would look like that at almost any given time whether it’s a live shot or not. There’s usually a few people taking pictures in front of the fountain and that’s it.dbInSouthCity wrote:The shot in the video has trees with green leafs on them. It wasn’t even live nor this week or yearPlatinumBlues wrote: ↑3:09 PM - 21 days agoIsn’t Keiner Plaza under renovation I wouldn’t expect many people to be around while there’s construction going on there besides that video is very dated & not current cause the trees aren’t even fully budded yet. So they’re basically using a old video to make a comment about downtown… Yeah we don’t have the most lively downtown but if they are going to make assumptions use a current video & not a video from last year or so.
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Even if Keiner Plaza is like this most of time I mean this isn’t NYC Chicago or SF… St.Louis could do much better but we all know this & I wouldn’t get my panties all tied in a bunch over it….
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And other times there is dozens of people eating lunch in an area under construction since there are daily food trucks there and will resume after construction.STLcommenter wrote: ↑4:43 PM - 21 days agoI think the point is that Kiener Plaza would look like that at almost any given time whether it’s a live shot or not. There’s usually a few people taking pictures in front of the fountain and that’s it.dbInSouthCity wrote:The shot in the video has trees with green leafs on them. It wasn’t even live nor this week or yearPlatinumBlues wrote: ↑3:09 PM - 21 days agoIsn’t Keiner Plaza under renovation I wouldn’t expect many people to be around while there’s construction going on there besides that video is very dated & not current cause the trees aren’t even fully budded yet. So they’re basically using a old video to make a comment about downtown… Yeah we don’t have the most lively downtown but if they are going to make assumptions use a current video & not a video from last year or so.
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Honestly this is how STL/KC should be operating. KC and STL leaders should meet up and shake hands and use their collective megaphones to talk about how great Missouri cities are and together draw people in from around our great cities... heck, bring in Columbia too
Now he could have said that better imho, but at least he's being nice
Now he could have said that better imho, but at least he's being nice
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Shopping is done online these days, having more shopping options won't make a difference. Some restaurants have closed due to traffic, having more or better restaurants won't people living over 30 minutes away. I believe that office conversions to residential are the best bet to improve foot traffic and that foot traffic is what would make some shopping and more restaurants viable, not the other way around.STLcommenter wrote: ↑3:57 PM - 21 days agoThis is the major problem for downtown. There is nothing drawing the average St. Louis family downtown outside of sports and events. There is zero shopping, very few great restaurants, and all of the museums are in Forest Park. It’s just not a place for families to come spend a day unless they’re doing a sporting event or the occasional trip to the City Museum/Union Station.PlatinumBlues wrote:Reading some of the comments they say there’s nothing down there no reason to go unless there’s an event etc….I get the feeling people either don’t want to go downtown or downtown is lacking in many amenities. I’ll go with the latter there’s just nothing really drawing people downtown outside of the usual events. If there was more shopping options like target tj max ross etc….
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My wife and I are doing rust belt city tours for our vacations the last few years. Cleveland, KC, Memphis, Louisville, Detroit, Cincy and Omaha are checked off the list. Pittsburgh is this summer and then Buffalo to round it out. It pains me to have to admit that DT STL is among the deadest for retail and the feeling that you are alone. The potential might be among the highest as far as tourist attractions and 19th and 20th Century architecture. It's our mid and south neighborhoods, density, architecture and food scene that make STL great. DT has a long way to go to be a neighborhood that feels active. I know this opinion could create a barrage of stats and data on this forum to counter this anecdotal experience, but I wanted to see for myself how we compare. It's been eye opening. FWIW, I think Cleveland is the most STL-like city as far as rust belt bounce back (for better and worse).
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More restaurants have opened then closed since Covid in downtownRick Prieto wrote: ↑4:54 PM - 21 days agoShopping is done online these days, having more shopping options won't make a difference. Some restaurants have closed due to traffic, having more or better restaurants won't people living over 30 minutes away. I believe that office conversions to residential are the best bet to improve foot traffic and that foot traffic is what would make some shopping and more restaurants viable, not the other way around.STLcommenter wrote: ↑3:57 PM - 21 days agoThis is the major problem for downtown. There is nothing drawing the average St. Louis family downtown outside of sports and events. There is zero shopping, very few great restaurants, and all of the museums are in Forest Park. It’s just not a place for families to come spend a day unless they’re doing a sporting event or the occasional trip to the City Museum/Union Station.PlatinumBlues wrote:Reading some of the comments they say there’s nothing down there no reason to go unless there’s an event etc….I get the feeling people either don’t want to go downtown or downtown is lacking in many amenities. I’ll go with the latter there’s just nothing really drawing people downtown outside of the usual events. If there was more shopping options like target tj max ross etc….
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I think the problem is sorta that downtown has a smaller-scale problem that the city broadly has. It has islands of good activity but very little connecting the islands. The stadium/BPV normally has moderate activity, Union Station normally has good activity, the Arch normally has good activity, and Washington Ave normally has moderate activity, but theyre all very separate from each other and not connected.
This is yet another problem that could go a long way towards being solved with a business sector that had a civic interest but we don't have that so this problem is lots and lots of population growth away from being solved.
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This is yet another problem that could go a long way towards being solved with a business sector that had a civic interest but we don't have that so this problem is lots and lots of population growth away from being solved.
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Then why didn't they.. just build a drive through lane to check-in?dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑4:24 AM - 21 days agoIt’s worse because there is one less southbound lane and one less lane across Broadway from market. Cars going to the hotel now stack on 1 of 2 southbound lanes. See photo abovebwcrow1s wrote: ↑4:20 AM - 21 days agoThen I'm confused then how its any worse now, or how it was any better before. In a real city with hotel check-in demand there is going to be backup without a lot.dbInSouthCity wrote: ↑4:05 AM - 21 days agoIt doesn’t go away after a minute. It stays there for hours on a Friday or Saturday afternoon as weekend check ins start. Pre bump outs it stuck to the far lane down market to 7th and there was still 2 lanes of through traffic as it turned into Broadway
Again, as a driver, it’s on you to navigate. Are you saying we should build (or in this case reopen) a dedicated slip lane just for a hotel? Sounds like a hotel issue.
Hotel would have no issue paying for a dedicated lane for driveway access and it can be done since there is a non functional bus stop there that can be removed to make it happen
Shave back the bump out (green), add a lane (red)
Also, that's not really going to save much congestion if it backs up to 7th street regularly (and historically according to you). So there's no reason why that shouldn't have been done long ago if it's already an issue.
Overall, folks have a tough time 'dealing with it'. And in the end we probably paid $6-8k to install and tear this thing out just to go back to the drawing board.
I'd also wager (and more than likely agree with you) that these discussions and considerations need to happen before pouring cement. Who greenlit this?
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I saw Mayor Q of KC making a comment about downtown StL & he pretty much sums it up not every downtown has NYC foot traffic & he’s correct ….….
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But we should be more like KC!PlatinumBlues wrote: ↑6:03 PM - 21 days agoI saw Mayor Q of KC making a comment about downtown StL & he pretty much sums it up not every downtown has NYC foot traffic & he’s correct ….….
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(Through q3 2025)
Imagine how quickly the narrative would change if Enterprise announced tomorrow that they were going Downtown with a new modern campus.
My imagination goes something like Enterprise buying the RWX and garage, building a new skyscraper office building (Centene style), maybe attracting another company to move with them, and then financing the redevelopment of the RWX with hundreds of apartments, probably a hotel, and lots of retail/amenities.addxb2 wrote:Imagine how quickly the narrative would change if Enterprise announced tomorrow that they were going Downtown with a new modern campus.
Something like this would be a win-win because then Enterprise's Clayton campus could be redeveloped into an urban neighborhood and boost Clayton's residential population by thousands potentially.
This would be billion dollar project that would actually feel like a billion dollar project. However, I do think the Millennium redevelopment will really help the vibe when it gets under construction and they secure an office tenant.
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Plan to consolidate St. Louis convention center, dome heads to governor's desk
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... r_stltoday
This is huge for another reason: This move will also result in the Dome budget getting $45-55m over the next decade from County hotel tax (as always intended) & effectively close the cash on hand vs needs list over the next decade to keep the Dome competitive. It’s used about 240 days a year now.
In about 15 years it will be $15m a year
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... r_stltoday
This is huge for another reason: This move will also result in the Dome budget getting $45-55m over the next decade from County hotel tax (as always intended) & effectively close the cash on hand vs needs list over the next decade to keep the Dome competitive. It’s used about 240 days a year now.
In about 15 years it will be $15m a year
Brad Dean also said that the new private operator of the facility will be expected to make a capital investment. Not sure if you're including that in closing the gap. I'd also expect the naming rights conversation will pick-up soon.
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Just my honest experience as someone who's stayed Downtown both times I've visited, it is difficult to find things to do downtown even if you are looking for things to do downtown. I'm planning to do another trip over the summer and have been researching events worth going to, but even a lot of the parades, festivals etc are in Tower Grove, Forest Park or Soulard. Your city has so many great attractions, but it feels like they were thrown to the wind and spread 8 different ways.PlatinumBlues wrote: ↑3:49 PM - 21 days agoReading some of the comments they say there’s nothing down there no reason to go unless there’s an event etc….I get the feeling people either don’t want to go downtown or downtown is lacking in many amenities. I’ll go with the latter there’s just nothing really drawing people downtown outside of the usual events. If there was more shopping options like target tj max ross etc….
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Imo the biggest underutilized draw Downtown has going for it is the available park land. Besides a once yearly blues festival, I didn't see much in the way of events on the Arch Grounds and I only saw a few events for Keiner Plaza. If the city started doing more outdoor concerts or centering more events Downtown and on the waterfront, I really feel like it would be the first step to having more long term businesses. Those dead zones don't activate themselves, it usually takes planned, highly visible events to start those trends of long term growth. The Arch grounds could be a great spot for a Lollapalooza type music festival or a summer BBQ & Beer event and I think the spillover from that could really make a difference long term
I’d guess most of the downtowns in the country the majority of people, who don’t live within a few miles, are going for an event or work. So I don’t get how that’s some big slight. There are some exceptions but I feel like it’s not very many.PlatinumBlues wrote: ↑3:49 PM - 21 days agoReading some of the comments they say there’s nothing down there no reason to go unless there’s an event etc….I get the feeling people either don’t want to go downtown or downtown is lacking in many amenities. I’ll go with the latter there’s just nothing really drawing people downtown outside of the usual events. If there was more shopping options like target tj max ross etc….
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dbInSouthCity wrote:But we should be more like KC!PlatinumBlues wrote: ↑6:03 PM - 21 days agoI saw Mayor Q of KC making a comment about downtown StL & he pretty much sums it up not every downtown has NYC foot traffic & he’s correct ….….
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(Through q3 2025)
Kansas City region has gained nearly 75,000 new residents while St.Louis region can barely gain 5,000 new residents.. Kansas City can continue to lose lose lose when it comes to Oracle/Cerner among other companies & St.Louis can continue to win win win when it comes to its companies reality is Kansas City is winning where it matters most & that’s gaining new residents even if it’s on the Kansas side of their region it matters.. Comments such as that broadcasters has weight & consequences & those very same constant comments are the same symptoms that continue to plague St.Louis as whole & it has a ripple effect throughout the entire region in a very negative manner. A vibrant downtown says more about the health of a region as whole vice versa a stale stagnant decaying downtown tells another about the regions health of a city & region. Let’s be real with ourselves people aren’t moving here because they do see St.Louis as a stale stagnant near dying downtrodden crime ridden area. This is why I won’t chime in on threads about cities that are growing cause St.Louis really isn’t growing & until our region particularly the city county solve their division we just aren’t going to see much growth & it’s sad cause people like us would love to experience a region that’s growing in population not the continuous stagnation to population decline we’re so used to hearing about. If we can somehow get the AT&T railway exchange chemical among other things back to life mixed with new developments that’ll add the much needed life downtown desperately needs. I really hope they figure it out cause we can’t afford more bad comments about downtown as it spreads like wildfire from a spark… our reality sucks & I hope we can get the good positive news about St.Louis we deserve. I love St.Louis it’s a beautiful region it almost sits at the foothills of the Ozarks two big beautiful rivers beautiful hiking trails awesome amenities great food storied suburbs one of a kind architecture particularly in the city but a downtown that’s disappointing to many. I hope we get some good news and good surprises soon. Whether we’re right or wrong we’re all very passionate about St.Louis & we only want what’s best for it…St.Louis’s enemies aren’t always from outside the region they’re from within the region the loudest negative mouths are the ones that know nothing about St.Louis but always have something to say & are from St.Charles County west St.Louis County & Jefferson County… we’ll be ok. My rant is over…..dbInSouthCity wrote:But we should be more like KC!PlatinumBlues wrote: ↑6:03 PM - 21 days agoI saw Mayor Q of KC making a comment about downtown StL & he pretty much sums it up not every downtown has NYC foot traffic & he’s correct ….….
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(Through q3 2025)
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Kansas City growth has slowed in the last few years and almost all cities have slowed because of the immigration decrease. Something that most cities have been depending on for new residents.
Im all seriousness... I teuly am really beginning to wonder about the factual and actual population statistic that St Louis is getting. It seems like the Metro is growing especially to the west and also to the south. The amount of new houses and new apartments being built cannot just be replacing or displacing population. I also question the city population. The population in north city just cannot be that great simply because there hasn't been that many people there anymore. Those that have left North City are now going to North County or Northwest County and even into Saint Charles County. If true, it means that 50,000 residents in the city would have had to move to the county or further into the suburbs beyond. That population is unaccounted for practically and not making up the difference in growth in the county or Metro area. People keep saying St Louis isn't really losing population as much as it is repositioning it around the Metro. If that's true where is the population that the city has lost in the last 10 years. In addition, the region has seen to see growth in technology, medical, universities, Aviation and other sectors. We have great employers both Fortune 500 companies Fortune 1000 companies and some of the largest independent private companies based in the metro. Most of them employing more people than they used to employ. There have been losses, but it doesn't seem like enough losses to make up a stagnant population growth. It is almost as if the numbers are not being challenged or the numbers keep trending in a certain way because they are not being figured correctly. I truly cannot figure it out. At the Metro continues to build out and grow and major parts of the city in the central Corridor primarily are building more and more high-rises mid-rises Apartments Etc and South City does not seem to be emptying out, it just doesn't seem like it adds up to me. I recently came across this Reddit post below as well as other cities that are starting to challenge the census. I feel there is something very strange. It is almost as if the old Rust Belt cities, primarily St Louis, we're trending one way for a while that the census is not being correctly done nor challenged. It just is very strange to me.
Cities across the U.S. are challenging Census Bureau population estimates to correct potential undercounts, which affect federal funding distribution. Major cities like Chicago and New York City have successfully had estimates revised upward for 2023, while others, including Phoenix and Boston, previously corrected 2020 counts. These challenges focus on data errors, such as miscounted housing units or group quarters.
ABC10
ABC10
+4
Key Aspects of the Census Challenge Process
Programs: The U.S. Census Bureau offers two primary avenues: the Count Question Resolution (CQR) program and the Population Estimates Challenge Program.
Challenge Scope: Cities cannot challenge the methodology itself, but they can challenge the data sources, such as migration data or housing unit counts.
Successful Outcomes: Several cities have won challenges, such as Phoenix, which became one of the largest cities to successfully challenge its 2020 census numbers. Similarly, Boston regained population counts related to student housing.
Impact: While these challenges do not affect congressional apportionment, they directly influence federal funding for infrastructure and services.
Timeline: The Population Estimates Challenge Program allows local governments to request a review of their population estimates within 90 days of release
KMOV actually reporting after March numbers that the Metro and City should challenge these statistics because they are so bizarre
https://www.firstalert4.com/2026/02/16/ ... perts-say/
Im all seriousness... I teuly am really beginning to wonder about the factual and actual population statistic that St Louis is getting. It seems like the Metro is growing especially to the west and also to the south. The amount of new houses and new apartments being built cannot just be replacing or displacing population. I also question the city population. The population in north city just cannot be that great simply because there hasn't been that many people there anymore. Those that have left North City are now going to North County or Northwest County and even into Saint Charles County. If true, it means that 50,000 residents in the city would have had to move to the county or further into the suburbs beyond. That population is unaccounted for practically and not making up the difference in growth in the county or Metro area. People keep saying St Louis isn't really losing population as much as it is repositioning it around the Metro. If that's true where is the population that the city has lost in the last 10 years. In addition, the region has seen to see growth in technology, medical, universities, Aviation and other sectors. We have great employers both Fortune 500 companies Fortune 1000 companies and some of the largest independent private companies based in the metro. Most of them employing more people than they used to employ. There have been losses, but it doesn't seem like enough losses to make up a stagnant population growth. It is almost as if the numbers are not being challenged or the numbers keep trending in a certain way because they are not being figured correctly. I truly cannot figure it out. At the Metro continues to build out and grow and major parts of the city in the central Corridor primarily are building more and more high-rises mid-rises Apartments Etc and South City does not seem to be emptying out, it just doesn't seem like it adds up to me. I recently came across this Reddit post below as well as other cities that are starting to challenge the census. I feel there is something very strange. It is almost as if the old Rust Belt cities, primarily St Louis, we're trending one way for a while that the census is not being correctly done nor challenged. It just is very strange to me.
Cities across the U.S. are challenging Census Bureau population estimates to correct potential undercounts, which affect federal funding distribution. Major cities like Chicago and New York City have successfully had estimates revised upward for 2023, while others, including Phoenix and Boston, previously corrected 2020 counts. These challenges focus on data errors, such as miscounted housing units or group quarters.
ABC10
ABC10
+4
Key Aspects of the Census Challenge Process
Programs: The U.S. Census Bureau offers two primary avenues: the Count Question Resolution (CQR) program and the Population Estimates Challenge Program.
Challenge Scope: Cities cannot challenge the methodology itself, but they can challenge the data sources, such as migration data or housing unit counts.
Successful Outcomes: Several cities have won challenges, such as Phoenix, which became one of the largest cities to successfully challenge its 2020 census numbers. Similarly, Boston regained population counts related to student housing.
Impact: While these challenges do not affect congressional apportionment, they directly influence federal funding for infrastructure and services.
Timeline: The Population Estimates Challenge Program allows local governments to request a review of their population estimates within 90 days of release
KMOV actually reporting after March numbers that the Metro and City should challenge these statistics because they are so bizarre
https://www.firstalert4.com/2026/02/16/ ... perts-say/
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I’ve never seen so many comments about St.Louis. This dude put an absolute whooping on St.Louis & it wasn’t even an April fools joke….
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This is a lot and I didn't read past the beginning, but using population growth as the indicator "that matters" is not very consistent. You never hear about Pittsburgh's decline, for example, and you almost never hear bad things about their downtown.
PIT has lost ~350,000 people since 1970 and ~35,000 since 2020.
The difference isn't population size or even growth, the difference is literally that Pittsburgh has a business sector with a vested interest in the success of downtown Pittsburgh. Companies like US Steel, UPMC, PNC, and PPG are all HQ'd in core downtown towers.
While AT&T Tower made national news, Pittsburgh is soon to have a similarly large totally vacant building after NBY Mellon downsized (in a simalar way to AT&T). It remains to be seen what comes of it, but I wouldn't be shocked if Pittsburgh's business sector (probably with state help) come up with a redevelopment plan.
Despite my criticisms of Spencer, I cannot stress enough that there is nothing ANY mayor or BOAP or anyone can do about downtown without the business sector willingly coming to the table to play ball.
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PIT has lost ~350,000 people since 1970 and ~35,000 since 2020.
The difference isn't population size or even growth, the difference is literally that Pittsburgh has a business sector with a vested interest in the success of downtown Pittsburgh. Companies like US Steel, UPMC, PNC, and PPG are all HQ'd in core downtown towers.
While AT&T Tower made national news, Pittsburgh is soon to have a similarly large totally vacant building after NBY Mellon downsized (in a simalar way to AT&T). It remains to be seen what comes of it, but I wouldn't be shocked if Pittsburgh's business sector (probably with state help) come up with a redevelopment plan.
Despite my criticisms of Spencer, I cannot stress enough that there is nothing ANY mayor or BOAP or anyone can do about downtown without the business sector willingly coming to the table to play ball.
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Here’s a comment by Ben Baby
I was stunned at the state of downtown St. Louis
when I was there a couple of weeks ago.
Ballpark Village is great. But city leaders need to have some major questions about how that downtown is in its current state.
These comments are getting out of hand but it’s free speech…
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I was stunned at the state of downtown St. Louis
when I was there a couple of weeks ago.
Ballpark Village is great. But city leaders need to have some major questions about how that downtown is in its current state.
These comments are getting out of hand but it’s free speech…
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