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PostSep 26, 2007#76

newstl2020 wrote:So what you are saying, effectively, is that chicago's michigan avenue is a horrible and attrocious thing, and that none of those retailers should have been allowed there in the first place and we should have just waited until local people decided to make shops and place them there.


I think that's exactly what he is saying, sadly.

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PostSep 26, 2007#77

If we are going to compare this development to Chicago, I think it looks more State Street than Michigan Avenue.

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PostSep 26, 2007#78

Steffen's goal for Mercantile Exchange is to have boutique-type stores on top of national retailers. He also wants to include dining and entertainment spots.


The goal is for a mix. Can we stop arguing now.

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PostSep 26, 2007#79

Doug wrote:Paris banned chain stores from the Champs-Élysées which happens to be one of the wealthiest residential areas in the world. So I suppose the idea of high end does not have to mean banal chain stores. But we are not Paris....


This is the first I've heard of this so-called ban. How can one really call it a "ban" when Christian Louboutin, Givenchy, and Louis Vuitton have stores there? Although these may be Parisian brands, one can hardly consider them local independant stores. They are, in part, responsible for the globalization of retail! (At least the luxury goods part of it -- which used to be more about getting things cusom-made locally than it was about buying some obnoxiously huge purse with LVs plastered all over it.)

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PostSep 26, 2007#80

MattNSTL wrote:The goal is for a mix. Can we stop arguing now.
Unfortunately I don't think its possible. No matter what happens, there is always going to be a group of skeptics saying it will never work.



"Mayor Slay announced today that all residents of St. Louis will be given $1 million, tax free, just for the hell of it."



"Pffft. I would rather they give us 1.5 million and build the bottle district, BUT IT WONT HAPPEN!"

- Forum member #1



"I agree completely. They just put in 48 new stores on Wash Ave. today, and they each had 10,000 visitors apiece. WASHINGTON AVENUE CANT HANDLE THAT TRAFFIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS SOOOOO STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

- Forum member #2



"5 NEW REsSTAURANTS? AND NONE OF THEM ARE LOCALLY OWNED, EVEN THOUGH NO LOCALS CAME UP WITH PROPOSALS TO PUT RESTAURANTS DOWNTOWN?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!!? WELL WE SHOULDVE WAITED IT OUT ANOTHER 50 YEARS GIVE OR TAKE TO SEE IF ANY WOULD COME FIRST! CAUSE LOCALLY OWNED IS FUN!"

- Forum member #3





Geez. So annoying.

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PostSep 26, 2007#81

^ Hilarious. :lol:

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PostSep 26, 2007#82

If this is a topic intended solely for boosting Pyramid and their project, then I'd say skepticism should be filtered out. It would be bad for the company.



But if this is a discussion on the project and and all of its parameters, then I'd say applying critical thinking and judgment is the whole point of a discussion forum.



Too often topics like this are not constructive, full of "yeah, that's awesome!" type replies. When someone raises a valid point that is seen at all as a critique of new investment, the typical parade of sarcasm and namecalling and even political gesticulating occurs. It's kind of disheartening that only a couple forumers want to have these kinds of discussions.



But back to MattnSTL's comments, if there will be a mix, and if downtown is ready for all of these recent announcements, then I'd say nearly all of us will be happy.

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PostSep 26, 2007#83

I am really interested in how this project will change the appearance and energy of this particular area. Especially since it is on a Metrolink station. A lot of people get their first impression of the city when they arrive at this Metrolink station from the airport for downtown hotel stays and conventions. The current atmosphere is dead and dark for someone not aware of better things down the street. Glad it isn't being called a district or village!

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PostSep 26, 2007#84

Matt Drops The H wrote:If this is a topic intended solely for boosting Pyramid and their project, then I'd say skepticism should be filtered out. It would be bad for the company.



But if this is a discussion on the project and and all of its parameters, then I'd say applying critical thinking and judgment is the whole point of a discussion forum.



Too often topics like this are not constructive, full of "yeah, that's awesome!" type replies. When someone raises a valid point that is seen at all as a critique of new investment, the typical parade of sarcasm and namecalling and even political gesticulating occurs. It's kind of disheartening that only a couple forumers want to have these kinds of discussions.



But back to MattnSTL's comments, if there will be a mix, and if downtown is ready for all of these recent announcements, then I'd say nearly all of us will be happy.


I personally think all of this discussion is great. That's what this forum is meant for.

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PostSep 26, 2007#85

Hey... no complaints about the critique here. As long as I get my Club Monaco, you can have all the St. Louie Butt Plug Emporiums you want. :P

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PostSep 26, 2007#86

Matt Drops The H wrote:First of all, Bastiat, I am not opposed to upscale retail downtown whatsoever. I think it's great. There is already some of that down there (and due of course to brand name loyalty, a lot of it is struggling and some even closing).



Second of all, New Orleans has tons of problems, but it has amazingly cool shopping districts that sell both buttplugs and 12,000 dollar imperial rugs.



Look up Magazine Street (a 6 mile stretch of VERY diverse businesses, some hole in the wall, some so upscale I don't even bother looking in the window). Look at the amazingly funky Oak Street. Look at the college-town like Maple Street. Look at hippie-central Frenchmen Street. The list goes on. These are places that define cities. New Orleans becomes known precisely because of these places, not the Whole Foods that is Uptown. Yes, that Whole Foods is well patronized and appreciated by residents. But any plan to turn New Orleans' uptown into an "upscale retail district" (the most un-organis sounding urban development) would be met with resistance, and for good reason.



Bastiat...I would really ask you too in the future not to turn everything into some liberal v. conservative or rich v. poor argument. It's not that simple. With as much energy as you spend trying to simplify people's statements and compact them into something completely different, you'd think you would simply invest that effort in finding out the real story, no matter how much time and thought process it takes.



I don't believe any of what I'm saying should be parodied.


This is the same old argument against upscale stores going into insert neighborhood name here . I still don't how you and others don't get that more upscale tenants = rising rents which forces lower income tenants to look for new digs on the fringes which = more rehab and development. I don't disagree with you about the areas that have character, but you need major retail as well. Is it really so awful that 6 blocks of downtown are slated for upscale national chains mixed with local boutiques? OMG, our city is going to lose all of it's character! Oh wait, there are blocks upon blocks of other retail spaces let alone parking lots and vacant lots that need infill. And that's just talking about downtown up to Wash Ave. Imagine all of the money that is going to be necessary to develop between Delmar and Cass. Or the Northside for that matter.



It really is a lack of ability to see the entire picture. Your types bemoan a place like Heffalumps closing in the CWE due to rising rents while ignoring the vacant lots at Delmar and Kingshighway (let alone Kingshighway and MLK) and how the rising values in the CWE will eventually allow for infill at this intersection.



I don't think it is possible any longer to parody your point of view when you greet this news as just as bad as rehabbing the St. Louis Center. I won't insult the intelligence of other members of this board by going into how wrong this is.



Would you greet it as bad news if everyone living west of Spoede moved back into the city limits and all of the stores out there relocated as well into urban buildings? I think you would.

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PostSep 26, 2007#87

We don't even know what stores are moving in, people. No specific retail is official.

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PostSep 26, 2007#88


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PostSep 26, 2007#89

Apparently, the convention center and the U.S. Bank Building will be adding sidewalk tables with umbrellas too - according to the rendering, at least! :)

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PostSep 26, 2007#90

Jambo wrote:



From http://www.ksdk.com


Wow, look at all the people!

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PostSep 26, 2007#91

Doubt US Bank will, and even less so the convention center but it be awesome if they did. That is a very vibrant scene with lot's of digital people. Hopefully it all comes to fruition.

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PostSep 26, 2007#92

I don't think it's possible in percentage form to express how much better that rendering looks than the same corner appears now. U.S. Bank and the convention center might not have tables, but if this rendering is built close to what is seen in that last picture, I think there is an extremely good chance those digital people will be real people in 2010.

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PostSep 26, 2007#93

MattnSTL wrote:Doubt US Bank will, and even less so the convention center but it be awesome if they did. That is a very vibrant scene with lot's of digital people. Hopefully it all comes to fruition.


I met a digital girl once in Philly . . . she was perfect, almost too perfect - kind of predictable too.



Renderings are annoying. Anyway, the cabbie stand at America's Center would never stand for sidewalk seating.

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PostSep 26, 2007#94

Jambo wrote:



From http://www.ksdk.com


AND THE METROBUS IN THE PICTURE IS OUT OF SERVICE!!!!!!!! THEY ARE CLOSING DOWN THE BUS LINE??!?!?!!!!

PostSep 26, 2007#95

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:


Wow, look at all the people!


:lol:

Am I picking up on some saracsm?

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PostSep 26, 2007#96

Juice13610 wrote:
The Central Scrutinizer wrote:


Wow, look at all the people!


:lol:

Am I picking up on some saracsm?


I'm not going there if it is going to be that crowded.

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PostSep 26, 2007#97

Plus there should be taxi cabs parked in front of the convention center, not outdoor cafes. FYI the bus is a Madison County Transit bus FWIW.

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PostSep 26, 2007#98

The discussion here sounds a lot like the discussion with St. Louis Centre back in the early 80s. Remember how Union Station's renovation and festival marketplace motif came at the exact same juncture.



Everyone talked of momentum and that "now is the time." However, as individuals interested in the health and vibrancy of the city, we have to ask ourselves whether we should throw ourselves at a very similar idea. Both in 1985 (when St. Louis Centre opened) and today, downtown doesn't have the population to sustain a lot of major retailers. If downtown did, good ol' Slay would have already had them in, or at least discussions of it, in my opinion.



Now, consider that St. Louis Centre offered "upscale" shopping with a lot of chain stores that were almost aways unique to the city, some unique to the region (at the time, Abercrombie and Fitch). Sure enough, parking concerns arose (despite having an adjacent parking garage). Suburban competition cut the throat of St. Louis Centre. The Galleria had a huge expansion in the early 1990s that I feel was the Centre's deathblow.



This area is too far from many things to sustain more than the 11-5 workday hours. Yes, there's the convention center and the dome. But a residential population is needed for off peak seasons and hours, and it's just not there yet.



Really, though, this announcement is essentially an announcement that Pyramid intends to put retail in the buildings they've purchased years ago. Thus, there is the frustrating idea that perhaps some local tenants expressed interest to locate in some of these historic buildings and bring unique character to these once abandoned places, only to be turned away since Pyramid had ideas of how to export St. Louis's dollars out of the region instead.



Please begin to tell me the ways in which a cursory comparison to St. Louis Centre are wrong.

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PostSep 26, 2007#99

...well for one this is all street-level retail, which is a unique urban shopping experience, like why people love going to the "miracle mile" (not making a comparisson of size or even quality, just the idea), as opposed to st. louis centre....which was not.

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PostSep 26, 2007#100

Thousands more downtown residents with many more on the way (Including people that live above the whole thing). The complex is not enclosed, which makes for more visibility and connectivity to other parts of downtown. Metrolink. More entertainment options coming soon (Movie Theatre, BallPark, Casino). Generally, more of downtown is being successfully rennovated than in the 80s. There are lots of differences. I'm not saying that they are incomparable because they are, but you have to admit that many of things that hurt St Louis Centre are at least significantly weakened factors.

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