urbanSTL

these are all good, smart stores and is the start of turning washington avenue into a michigan avenue. wow! there's a 6 screen cinema popping up at washington and tucker.... martini bar/bowling alley on 11th and washington.... plenty of upscale restaurants... now retail that i would shop at! shweet. this will only help fuel the residential growth. excellent news and bigger than centene, I agree.

Hopefully this announcement will get plenty of attention like the one made by Centene on Sunday.



It's more wonderful news in a short span filled with great news and reasons to be hopeful about Saint Louis' future.



I've always hoped we would see the traditional retail core of downtown return to its original role one way or another.



For starters, it's highly unlikely we'll attract another major department store downtown, but this announcement should ease concerns about Macy's long term future, as the store will serve as an anchor for other national retailers.



Anecdotally speaking, in an age where malls are declining in popularity, I've found that General Growth Properties holdings seem to be doing better than their competition. They have a strong track record, and it's encouraging to see another Chicago-based company with faith in our downtown's future. It's a bit ironic that their other property in town (the Galleria) had at least a supporting role in the demise of St. Louis Centre, but I think this district is much better suited for the long haul since (1) it's not a mall in an urban setting and (2) downtown is much more diversified than it was 20 years ago.



Say what you will about the decline in jobs, the departure of corporations, etc. compared to the days of St. Louis Centre's zenith (late 1980s-early 1990s), but all signs point to a downtown where the number of workers, residents, and yes, shoppers, will continue to grow. I hate to see September end, because it's been a great month for Saint Louis (excluding the Cardinals and Rams of course).

All of this news is so surreal



It leaves me feeling more and more anxious to buy a casa before a poor guy like me gets priced out!

I'm really excited about all this too, but wasn't this all part of Pyramid's original plan for St. Louis Centre? This isn't really "news," except that we now have more specific plans.



But, hey, go Saint Louis!

I don't mean to rain on a parade...BUT...



Does anyone else think that the city right now may have a bit too much on its' plate right now? Honestly, consider the following major projects (public or private) that the city absolutely has an interest in:



1. Ball Park Village (now with Centene Towers)

2. Metrolink studies/expansion

3. I-70 lid

4. Gateway Mall master plan/redevelopment (sculpture park inc)

5. Choteau Pond

6. Bottle District

7. New I-70 Bridge

8. Multi-modal transportation station

9. OPO plaza

10. Highway 64 construction

11. Skyhouse

12. Robert Bros. Tower

14. Lumiere Place

13. And now, the St. Louis Centre retail district



Can the city effectively manage and administrate these projects simultaneously? There's a bunch of projects on here right now that are still in the planning stages (to be kind), despite years of announcements and proposals. Can these projects succeed in a stagnant housing market?

My first thought when I read this was comparing this to BPV. I imagined a Chicago like shopping experience (I admit, I hope for reallly nice stores like Coach and Burberry but we wont see them for a looong time) and then I imagined walking south from there and seeing the beautiful new towers in BPV once you hit the Mall. And then I thought of the MALL. God, one of these days the areas north and south of the Mall will grow so strong that the Mall will HAVE to cease to exist!



But seriously, I really think the OPO, Wash Ave and CBD are, and will be, much healthier than BPV will be for the fact that BPV will be an island.

1. Ball Park Village (now with Centene Towers)

With everything else, this project seems less and less like the crown jewel of downtown. This is a good thing.



2. Metrolink studies/expansion

These are a long, long way off - maybe 10 years at best?



3. I-70 lid

Seems to be further away from reality than new Metrolink lines or development of the arch grounds.



4. Gateway Mall master plan/redevelopment (sculpture park inc)

I don't necessarily like what they're doing here, but it seems to be already largely paid for by the Gateway Foundation.



5. Choteau Pond

15 years? Maybe 20?



6. Bottle District

Dead as we know it.



7. New I-70 Bridge

From everything we know, this will be a minimal expense for St. Louis/MO



8. Multi-modal transportation station

Close to being done.



9. OPO plaza

This is small - even if significant. The Roberts tower seems to have broken ground.



10. Highway 64 construction

More or less outside the city. Think of this - 64 will be nicer and newer as all these projects begin coming on-line.



11. Skyhouse

Seems to be selling well.



12. Robert Bros. Tower

I have my doubts, but it's a cool, unique project. Maybe it's broken ground now?



14. Lumiere Place

Maybe there's a big Phase II coming? Phase I is coming along nicely.



13. And now, the St. Louis Centre retail district

Hopefully this is real retail for residents and some visitors and less touristy/niche.



Anyway, my point is that all of these are in various states of development from months away from being completed to a decade away from being started. The really cool thing (though it can invite criticism when speaking of specifc proposals) is that there are so many ideas and visions for parts of downtown. It would be great if urban development were nice and clean but in fact what characterizes healthy growth is a competition of ideas and investments. Some will win and some will lose, but the energy shown by the list above is what's important - IMO.

Grover wrote:It would be great if urban development were nice and clean but in fact what characterizes healthy growth is a competition of ideas and investments. Some will win and some will lose, but the energy shown by the list above is what's important - IMO.

Well said! I think your analysis of the status of various projects is also pretty much on the money.

To everyone, but especially Bastiat for his post on the previous page:



I would like to see everyone be a bit more discerning and cautious than this. Once again, it's great to hear some of these projects Pyramid's taking on will likely have tenants, but I know I'm not the only one who's a little nervous about the potential success of retail ventures like Apple and Banana Republic downtown.



For one, Macy's/Famous Barr has always had a hard time attracting customers. St. Louis Centre contained even chain stores that were no where else in St. Louis at the time--and yet look what happened to it. Part of the problem was ironically the Galleria's opening and subsequent competition, but you'd be crazy to suggest this huge mall managing company would place a flagship or unique store in downtown St. Louis rather than the Galleria.



As a result, we will have one wing of the Galleria right on downtown streets. That's what everyone is so excited for about downtown?



So one minute, attacking suburbanites for their supposedly inferior homes and attitudes is posh when the city is seen as struggling, and then the next minute the suburbs get imported to the city and everyone goes ga-ga over some chain stores downtown?



Let me get this straight. Everyone on this forum who loves St. Louis loves...what exactly? The shells of historic buildings? Or not even that? Is it really just an attachment to the name and physical place and whatever dollar signs plant themselves on its soil become fodder for worship?



If you ask me, the very most exciting part of this announcement is the much needed streetscape improvements.



And yet, the only person on here who is willing to mention the fact that this will be another development full of national retailers and chain stores in the same area that has no more than 10,000 residents in a half mile vicinity, that has a populace that still hasn't learned how to use a parking garage that isn't adjacent to the destination, that has seen the failures or mediocre performance of other national retailers...is Bastiat. Of course, by his comments, a want for local businesses that make a city unique is laughable.



It's sad...so sad, so painful to become one of those people who has moved away into a more progressive environment and can see a city (St. Louis) that has had such a history of latching onto whatever comes up and absolutely never innovating. In New Orleans, chain stores are of course allowed and exist, but local entrepreneurs make this city, which is also known for its amazing preservation of its historic housing stock. Local businesses and amazing architecture give it its inimitable character. The pride over the building stock and local enterprises are part of a beautiful synergy that has helped to repair a city that now has fewer people than St. Louis but still ten times the activity in even the more remote corners.



I absolutely love St. Louis. Like a stodgy parent who doesn't like his daughter's parade of boyfriends that aren't good enough for her, I await the day when that daughter is equipped to make the best decisions and not just the most convenient and current.

BankerBrad wrote:Until today, Pyramid had bought some buildings that they were going to turn into condos, and they'd have some retail eventually on the ground floor. That's been the story on all downtown development. The "news" is that a major retail developer is now on board to open a bona-fide retail district in these spaces. No "For Lease" signs from Pyramid in the window, but a full on commitment by a national corporation. The news is faith in our market, and commitment to build it up in a major way.

You're right. I think Pyramid bringing GGP into this project is big news indeed.



I'm especially happy to see the Mercantile Library Building included in this project- Pyramid has owned it for some time but really didn't offer specifics about its future until now.



I only wish the owner of the St. Louis Centre garage would consider restoring ground level retail space where there is now street-level parking. Woolworth's occupied the space from 1985 until the early 1990s when the chain went under...simply restoring this space would go a long way toward making that corner more attractive.

Matt Drops The H wrote:To everyone, but especially Bastiat for his post on the previous page:



I would like to see everyone be a bit more discerning and cautious than this. Once again, it's great to hear some of these projects Pyramid's taking on will likely have tenants, but I know I'm not the only one who's a little nervous about the potential success of retail ventures like Apple and Banana Republic downtown.



For one, Macy's/Famous Barr has always had a hard time attracting customers. St. Louis Centre contained even chain stores that were no where else in St. Louis at the time--and yet look what happened to it. Part of the problem was ironically the Galleria's opening and subsequent competition, but you'd be crazy to suggest this huge mall managing company would place a flagship or unique store in downtown St. Louis rather than the Galleria.



As a result, we will have one wing of the Galleria right on downtown streets. That's what everyone is so excited for about downtown?



So one minute, attacking suburbanites for their supposedly inferior homes and attitudes is posh when the city is seen as struggling, and then the next minute the suburbs get imported to the city and everyone goes ga-ga over some chain stores downtown?



Let me get this straight. Everyone on this forum who loves St. Louis loves...what exactly? The shells of historic buildings? Or not even that? Is it really just an attachment to the name and physical place and whatever dollar signs plant themselves on its soil become fodder for worship?



If you ask me, the very most exciting part of this announcement is the much needed streetscape improvements.



And yet, the only person on here who is willing to mention the fact that this will be another development full of national retailers and chain stores in the same area that has no more than 10,000 residents in a half mile vicinity, that has a populace that still hasn't learned how to use a parking garage that isn't adjacent to the destination, that has seen the failures or mediocre performance of other national retailers...is Bastiat. Of course, by his comments, a want for local businesses that make a city unique is laughable.



It's sad...so sad, so painful to become one of those people who has moved away into a more progressive environment and can see a city (St. Louis) that has had such a history of latching onto whatever comes up and absolutely never innovating. In New Orleans, chain stores are of course allowed and exist, but local entrepreneurs make this city, which is also known for its amazing preservation of its historic housing stock. Local businesses and amazing architecture give it its inimitable character. The pride over the building stock and local enterprises are part of a beautiful synergy that has helped to repair a city that now has fewer people than St. Louis but still ten times the activity in even the more remote corners.



I absolutely love St. Louis. Like a stodgy parent who doesn't like his daughter's parade of boyfriends that aren't good enough for her, I await the day when that daughter is equipped to make the best decisions and not just the most convenient and current.

I applaud your love affair with NO - a fair city indeed. Any comparison with StL is haphazard at best. Some of your observations are just twisted. I don't remember anyone loving St. Louis because we're roughing it without chain stores. I'd love to have an Apple store in the city. I'd love to have the stores that I travel out of the city to shop at in the city instead. And when did these stores become the providence of the burbs? Isn't the shopping center a recreation of urban retail? The problem is that your comments are timeless - your rant could have been printed on parchment and nailed to a telegraph pole lamenting the appearance of A&P's in St. Louis a century ago. Sure, we talk about the blandness of the burbs and lack of variety in shopping - that's why we want to keep local establishments, but I don't see the horrifying blatant hypocrisy in this that you seem to.

TimeForGuinness wrote:
I could really care less where it's located, spread it out...make me walk and see the city. This is what cities are for and we have a beautiful city. I might be getting too excited but it seems like the snowball is growing.



BPV

Centene

St. Louis Center

Roberts Tower

SkyHouse

Lumiere



The skyline is going to look completely different.



Bring on the cranes!

No kidding! The skyline will get much needed density. Nothing terribly tall, but I think we all will appreciate the added street level activity these will bring.

Grover wrote:
I applaud your love affair with NO - a fair city indeed. Any comparison with StL is haphazard at best. Some of your observations are just twisted. I don't remember anyone loving St. Louis because we're roughing it without chain stores. I'd love to have an Apple store in the city. I'd love to have the stores that I travel out of the city to shop at in the city instead. And when did these stores become the providence of the burbs? Isn't the shopping center a recreation of urban retail? The problem is that your comments are timeless - your rant could have been printed on parchment and nailed to a telegraph pole lamenting the appearance of A&P's in St. Louis a century ago. Sure, we talk about the blandness of the burbs and lack of variety in shopping - that's why we want to keep local establishments, but I don't see the horrifying blatant hypocrisy in this that you seem to.

I agree w/ Grover. I'm in San Francisco right now, the second densest city in the U.S. There are plenty of chain stores. Crate and Barrel, Armani Exchange, Apple Stores, etc., but this city is amazing. Wonderful cities like San Francisco and Minneapolis have a good mix of chain stores and local establishments downtown and they are amazing urban environments. Seeing places like this makes me shake my head trying to understand what Matt Drops the H is saying. Having increased foot traffic, retail options, tax dollars, etc. in the city sure doesn't sound too horrible to me. Local establishments thrive in other cities with national retail and I don't see why it'd be different in St. Louis. I'm so excited for things like this to happen to the city. What a week!

To me, urban vitality is not merely filled streets or buildings on an urban grid. If that were true, New Urbanist communities might rightfully replace cities. After all, the typical NU community is walkable, safe, and has a good school district, with both filled streets and an urban grid. And chain stores are usually accessible by highway in strip centers.



Why we continue to subsidize large retailers and national chains while local retailers get left behind is not a crazy idea in my opinion. It's a paradigm shift to be sure, but a necessary development.



Comparisons between New Orleans and St. Louis are complicated as comparing any two cities often hits road bumps. But the things that contribute to urban vitality, character, and long term sustainability often wear similar skins. There's something to be said of a city with this much civic pride and abundant character and they way it operates that can provide a comparison point to a city that's always seen itself as down and out and accepts the lowest common denominator or the path of least resistance on all fronts.



I am not saying this clarification of Pyramid's intent with St. Louis Centre is anything horrible and will kill downtown. I just A) don't think it will make downtown unique; B) have doubts as to its possible success; and C) think that future developments that continue to subsidize national chains and retailers (including Centene, the rest of Ballpark Village, Lumiere Place, and most any new downtown development for which details are being announced) are only eroding the momentum of local entrepreneurs and unfairly balancing the scales in the favor of establishments with no local flair.



So I'm crazy for thinking that? An Apple store next to Mom and Pop's Donuts would be great, but the reality of that seems in St. Louis strangely out of reach. Why must it be one or the other?

So what you are saying, effectively, is that chicago's michigan avenue is a horrible and attrocious thing, and that none of those retailers should have been allowed there in the first place and we should have just waited until local people decided to make shops and place them there.

Matt Drops The H wrote:
Comparisons between New Orleans and St. Louis are complicated as comparing any two cities often hits road bumps. But the things that contribute to urban vitality, character, and long term sustainability often wear similar skins. There's something to be said of a city with this much civic pride and abundant character and they way it operates that can provide a comparison point to a city that's always seen itself as down and out and accepts the lowest common denominator or the path of least resistance on all fronts.

What I really meant was that this is all distorted in NO at the moment because of the tremendous changes wrought by Katrina. There is increasing pressure on local establishments (especially those not supported by tourists) because of the lower-middle class population loss. There are plenty of strip malls, big box retail in NO as well. IMO - the historic section of the city that we know the best exists in something like a Venetian state - solely because of what people want it to be. I'm sure you're seeing parts of NO that I haven't so I can't vouch for everywhere. Very few cities transcend the market (maybe Boston, SF, NO, NYC?). I can't imagine StL growing enough to greatly change its status, nor will it suddenly attract a few million additional tourists/visitors that would happily patronize quirky establishments in Old North, Soulard or other places. I do look forward to hearing more about NO.

Also in SF now...the amount of street life/pedestrian traffic is pretty amazing. It feels much like a European or Asian city (albeit grittier/dirtier than most) Still, a lot of energy about. Part of what makes areas of SF like Union SQ work is the widespread use of public transportation - BART, Muni, Trolley and bus. Parking is really limited and expensive, yet there is a ton of pedestrian traffic. There isn't a whole lot of residential right in the Union SQ area, so the people are coming from somewhere, and most aren't driving. Sure, some come on foot from surrounding neighborhoods, but many others come via public transport. There are a lot of national/international chains here, but also local boutiques as well. And yes, lots of panhandlers...

And you will Grover. New Orleans seems like an architectural museum compared to St. Louis, which really surprised me. I figured that the French Quarter was a sort of oasis in a city essentially built of low to the ground, roof-heavy suburban concrete slab foundation construction. There are multitudes of business districts small and large that merge some chains with lots of locals, upscale, red light district, and everything in between. And let's not forget a treasure trove of amazing neighborhoods all over the city. It is truly a fascinating city.



Now back on topic...



I don't think Michigan Avenue is abominable. It's certainly not where I'd hang out if I lived in Chicago, nor the place of many locals there now. I know nothing of the history of the Magnificent Mile and how it came to be, but if the city of Chicago threw Nordstrom's and Nieman Marcus all the tax incentives they wanted in a small downtown with a nascent residential population and a few local businesses just becoming neighborhood establishments, I'd be amazed.



There's just no way and no will to help the little guys. I don't think that's a small point.



ALL that said, I do very much welcome the thought of full-window storefronts and improved streetscapes. I really worry that it still isn't downtown's time just yet, but who knows? Maybe I am a fool.

The little guys should be supported, for sure, that much is certain. The thing about these little guys though is that the good ones, the ones people really love and cherish, the ones that give each city its own distinctive character, don't need help because the residents recognize the inherent goodness in these types of establishments (maybe a little dramatic). I guess what I mean is that we should welcome larger retailers that will bring class and sophistication to downtown. The smaller businesses will be taken care of if they are good enough to stay. A shot at an example of what I'm trying to say here...you can put all the upscale suiting boutiques you want in st. louis (armani, gucci, etc.) and they might very well succeed and do good business, but there will always be something about Sam Cavato that will keep patrons of the establishment coming there as well. (That very well might have been a sh*t example, but hey I tried.)



Edit: Oh, and you state your points well Matt, and are clearly no fool.

migueltejada wrote:I don't mean to rain on a parade...BUT...



Does anyone else think that the city right now may have a bit too much on its' plate right now? Honestly, consider the following major projects (public or private) that the city absolutely has an interest in:



1. Ball Park Village (now with Centene Towers)

2. Metrolink studies/expansion

3. I-70 lid

4. Gateway Mall master plan/redevelopment (sculpture park inc)

5. Choteau Pond

6. Bottle District

7. New I-70 Bridge

8. Multi-modal transportation station

9. OPO plaza

10. Highway 64 construction

11. Skyhouse

12. Robert Bros. Tower

14. Lumiere Place

13. And now, the St. Louis Centre retail district



Can the city effectively manage and administrate these projects simultaneously? There's a bunch of projects on here right now that are still in the planning stages (to be kind), despite years of announcements and proposals. Can these projects succeed in a stagnant housing market?

Of course, if they are done well. St. Louis is the central city for a region of some 2.8 million people. The infrastructure to support these projects is very much there, and extremely underestimated. This city can support all of these projects and many, many more simultaneously. That's what healthy cities do. And we mustn't dwell on a "stagnant housing market" because real estate, like many industries, is fluctuant. St. Louis has fared a lot better than many major cities throughout this housing crisis, and the market will recover. I am confident that the majority of these projects will come to fruition. I only hope that all these developers look at their own projects in the greater context of the city at large so that there is a singular vision for urban vitality.

MattnSTL wrote:Ya, I was gonna say that none of those stores are my type, but it's more options. Won't likely see a lot of those, but this is a company that can get some larger stores. However, I'm sure a certain part of the urbanist community would be overjoyed to have an Apple store.



Frankly, I could care less what stores they are bringing in as long as they generate foot traffic.

If several people on here have already dismissed the stores as not their style, that is reason for concern. I hate the thought that we may one day be sitting and reading the news of the closures of these stores and scratching our heads not understanding what happened because there was so much foot traffic down there. Foot traffic won't be enough to make this project. The stores actually need business and it's worrisome that people are making it clear they likely will not be providing business for the stores.



Also wanted to comment on the idea of chain stores. I don't understand what is so bad...everything started out as a local store at one time. If an idea is successful and the resources are available...that's how chains form. Some people are so anti-chain and support your local store, but it seems forgotten that these chain stores are chains for a reason...they did something right! If a chain store sucks...I don't care how many investors it has or how much money is behind it...if it's not successful, they will close it. I think the chain vs. local argument just needs to be dropped. Support the businesses that provide the goods and services that you need/desire regardless of what type of store it is.

I think this is more of a news piece for the sceptics you know. The same ones who ask where our grocey store is and all that jazz. I rarely go to the Galleria, or any of that stuff, but for someone who doesn't understand why WE would live DT, these types of retail establishments gives it some sort of legitimacy. For those of us who have been down here for years or who have loved the city for years, it obviously didn't affect our decision, and is kind of just icing on the cake. But it will certainly open some eyes, and may draw attention to the area to someone who may not have cared a few years back.

Jesus Christ, the city is ridiculously underserved when it comes to retail and we're complaining about bringing retailers downtown?