urbanSTL

Matt Drops The H Wrote

Everyone talked of momentum and that "now is the time." However, as individuals interested in the health and vibrancy of the city, we have to ask ourselves whether we should throw ourselves at a very similar idea. Both in 1985 (when St. Louis Centre opened) and today, downtown doesn't have the population to sustain a lot of major retailers. If downtown did, good ol' Slay would have already had them in, or at least discussions of it, in my opinion.

I agree

Please begin to tell me the ways in which a cursory comparison to St. Louis Centre are wrong.

Your not wrong..



Let hope this is a 'if you build it they will come' scenario



as in new downtown residents



I hope that this national company Pyramid is teaming with knows the horrible history of St Louis Centre.

newstl2020 wrote:...well for one this is all street-level retail, which is a unique urban shopping experience, like why people love going to the "miracle mile" (not making a comparisson of size or even quality, just the idea), as opposed to st. louis centre....which was not.

Not entirely. Both Water Tower Place and the base of the Four Seasons are anything but street-level retail. (I'm pretty sure there were explicit comparisons of St. Louis Centre to Water Tower Place when it first opened.)

I walk up and down Washington Ave 6 days a week. I work there and go to the new gym, so closely see all the happenings. I am struggling to think of any building from 6th to 14th that isn't currently in use as residential, retail or a restaurant/bar. And, the buildings that aren't currently in use are being turned in to residential, retail or a restaurant/bar. Not to mention new construction like the Sky House. Hell, I’ve started to see tourists stroll the Ave. It's incredible to see. I love it.



Today, there was a large open house on the ground floor of the old Dillard’s building to hype The Mercantile Exchange. All kinds of businessmen in suits. Outside, cool-looking red MX logos were painted onto the sidewalk. Again, cool to see.



With that being said…..Over months of passive observation, I’m still not sure who's shopping at the retail. I do occasionally, but rarely. Daily, I see few people shopping. Perhaps because much of the retail is high-end, they don't need a high number of sales to survive, but I don't know. At the same time, Macy’s is not a boutique, and few people seem to shop there as well. It’s not like these places are totally empty, but I just don’t know how any of them are profitable.



Without a doubt, this has been an exciting week for downtown boosters--myself included. (Hell it prompted this, my second ever post. ) The Centene deal was incredible, even with the huge tax subsidies (I hope), but how many more residents are going to move downtown in the next few years? 10K now to 15K? Do those 5K more people mean more demand for even more retail with the MX? Do Centene’s 1200 workers merit more retail?



Ultimately, I think that for MX to work for the businessmen and for downtown’s future, the retail (current and new) has to offer something the Galleria can’t. It has to attract people from outside downtown. How? Perhaps unique stores (including that urban dork’s dream of IKEA), a cooler shopping experience than an enclosed suburban mall (like KC’s The Plaza), or….well what?

SoulardX, huh? I have a rival?



I think that the small stores that have located downtown now are probably doing backflips because these stores will bring foot traffic and allow for the critical mass that they need to keep a vibrant retail district going. There are more and more people with money living downtown, in the CWE, Soulard, Lafayette Square, and even the up and coming hoods like Benton Park, etc that will patronize these stores. That's a crucial difference than what was happening in the 80's when the city abandonment was in full force. Now city revitalization is in full force... are the 'this'll be like STL Centre' denying that or just saying it won't have the necessary impact?

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:

Juice13610 wrote:

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:


Wow, look at all the people!

Am I picking up on some saracsm?

I'm not going there if it is going to be that crowded.

Yeah. Too much trouble to find a parking space. Forget it.

SoulardD wrote:SoulardX, huh? I have a rival?

The greatest form of flattery...

It is always the same posters that we can count on in every positive thread about downtown STL to drop in and put a pesimmistic post in. It is like clock work and carbon copy. Get's old after awhile.



Not wrong?



I greatly disagree.



First off, residential living in downtown STL in 1985 was hardly available, much less what was available was mainly low-income.

In 1985, there were far less downtown hotels and tourism was almost half of what it is today.

In 1985, the new convention center, nor dome were built.

In 1985, the was no Metrolink mass transit system - now stopping at the door.

In 1985, there was not other "revitalization" going on near and around downtown as far as entertainment and residential.

In 1985, we had a city government that believed that ONE fantastic indoor mall was going to bring people downtown to shop forever.

In 1985, we didn't have billions of dollars being developed thoughout downtown.

In 1985, the city was a place of doom - not just downtown - but neighborhoods throughout the city were bleeding residents right and left.



Anywho ... there are many factors.



The fact that retail, restaurants, entertainment aspects and such have all ALREADY developed or have been developed and thriving downtown (especially in the north downtown/Wash Ave. area) prior to this development is different in the first place.



When STL Centre was built it was just one thing a MALL that opened and closed with the working market downtown. It was mismanaged almost from the start and doomed (as almost all downtown indoor malls have been). It was a nice mall at first - one of a kind stores etc... BUT, there was no other reason to "come downtown" than that one place. You can't shop the same mall everyday and you are not going to shop the same mall everyday - since other malls like St. Louis Galleria then opened with the same store and better stores - closer to the burbs - just a few years after STL Centre opened. Why drive downtown?



Today, downtown is thriving in different ways... a fresh new residential neighborhood that is growing fast - new highrises, corporations, emploees/employers moving downtown. There is now the demand and everyone seems to want to be the first to create the best. So let it be - and maybe it is a "build it and tehy will come" situation in some sense.



One other factor we must take into consideration is the population of today itself. In 1985 St. Louis' population was primarily that of those people who swarmed to the suburbs from the city in the 1960's and 70's. Their perceptions of the city - were not good. Their children (the baby boomers) were in their 30's and grew up in the burbs and knew the city only from what their parents said... and today, their children are the new downtown population and dwellers, shoppers and urban elites. It is today's population that believes in urban revival - green dvelopment - etc... it is today's population that fills the nightime streets of Washington Avenue and dines and wines in the downtown scene - a different mindset for a new generation that BELIEVES in downtown andurban living/development and revitalization.



One aspect that I like about downtown STL -

The city has been coming back for about 7 years now.

There was no ONE big revitalization project to "change the winds"... mainly it began with smaller developments leading now to these great new big ones. Yet the smaller developments have sustained, been recreated into more vibrant developments and have been the forefront and stepping blocks for downtown. Over the past 7 years... downtown has grown, come alive and now a new wave of big developments who have been watching downtown STL blossom are taking note and setting up shop - only because they see the growth and development. Believe me, they remember STL Centre and they have watched the market for years without touching it - as it began rising itself - and now they are taking interest.



My hands are tired of typing. Sorry for all the typos - just enjoy

Good night everyone.

^I'll cap that off with an Amen and a Ray Hill's beer!!!

MSNBC: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20995966/

CNN: http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/art ... TAJEG0.htm

The snowball will continue to grow.



I just see this (major streetlevel retail) as the next cycle in the dt renaisance. I don't see what all the skepticism is all about. I'm sure some stores will close, but overall I see this having some staying power. Remember, these stores will also give conventioneers more places to spend money.

Ultimately, I think that for MX to work for the businessmen and for downtown’s future, the retail (current and new) has to offer something the Galleria can’t. It has to attract people from outside downtown. How? Perhaps unique stores (including that urban dork’s dream of IKEA), a cooler shopping experience than an enclosed suburban mall (like KC’s The Plaza), or….well what?

Why must it be unique? We sometimes forget that retail can mean a Starbucks, a Walgreens, etc. or even a restaurant or sandwich shop. It doesn't always have to mean "boutique." And, it doesn't have to 'attract people from outside downtown" Actually, something that adds to the quality of life for downtown residents and hotel customers would be much preferred.

VERY WELL said, matguy!!!!



When is it ever going to dawn on some of the negative posters that downtown is our greatest asset as it is our front door to the world, that deals here are no different than any other city, that we need neighborhoods that accomodate ALL facets of urban and suburban living and everything between, and that a city is made up of rich, poor and middle class, people...oh, the list goes on and on and is quite diverse, which is what a world class city is all about. I'm a little tired of the negativism that has castrated this wonderful city in the first place.

1985

22 years ago

sure things have improved



people started moving downtown, hoping for retail to follow..



now the retail plans come alive, and what should happen is that all the people that have said I wouldnt move downtown because of the lack of retail get interested in downtown as a place to live.



we should in theory see a surge of new residents and higher property values..



All that will help support the growing retailers..

citywatcher wrote:Matt Drops The H Wrote

Everyone talked of momentum and that "now is the time." However, as individuals interested in the health and vibrancy of the city, we have to ask ourselves whether we should throw ourselves at a very similar idea. Both in 1985 (when St. Louis Centre opened) and today, downtown doesn't have the population to sustain a lot of major retailers. If downtown did, good ol' Slay would have already had them in, or at least discussions of it, in my opinion.

I agree

Please begin to tell me the ways in which a cursory comparison to St. Louis Centre are wrong.

Your not wrong..



Let hope this is a 'if you build it they will come' scenario



as in new downtown residents



I hope that this national company Pyramid is teaming with knows the horrible history of St Louis Centre.

Look - St. Louis is not exceptional. In the 1980's downtowns were failing across the country. Navy Pier was a disaster in Chicago, Union Station failed in Indianapolis, the WKRP days of downtown Cincinnati were history. Cities, and specifically downtowns, have been fallen, risen and fallen due to changes in our pattern of living. I understand I say this with 20/20 hindsight, but I (and many people more educated than I) believe that there is a trend toward urban living. More people are retiring in urban centers, people are actively trying to avoid time spent in cars and in traffic . . . etc. etc. etc. etc. I hope that Pyramid doesn't know the history of St. Louis Centre. Well, I guess I don't care, but I hope they don't take it to heart. Why does it make sense to say, "a suburban style indoor retail mall suceeded for a couple years, languished and eventually failed beginning in the 1980's so in 2007 we shouldn't try to build retail"????????

dina wrote:Why must it be unique? We sometimes forget that retail can mean a Starbucks, a Walgreens, etc. or even a restaurant or sandwich shop. It doesn't always have to mean "boutique." And, it doesn't have to 'attract people from outside downtown" Actually, something that adds to the quality of life for downtown residents and hotel customers would be much preferred.

I don't think anyone is saying it has to be all unique. However, a diversity of retailers would be beneficial. There should be things like Walgreens that add to the quality of life for downtown residents and there should also be chain stores. Those are names that people know and thus will assist in drawing people downtown. Unique/boutique/whathaveyou stores should also be a part of that mix. In addition to having big names, unique places give an additional reason to come downtown since its stuff you can't find anywhere else.



I think downtown will be all the healthier if stores such as Good Works and The Time can thrive along side national retailers such as Crate & Barrel and J. Crew.

TimeForGuinness wrote:I bet those crazy St. Louis U kids and Wash U kids will make a trip down. BTW, I wonder how much enrollment has increased since 1980...



Just because it's downtown doesn't mean it has to serve JUST downtown. There are a lot of neighboring areas that would love something like this...and GASP...there are city dwellers who would like to support city businesses and not have their tax dollars or the tourists tax dollars go to the county via the Galleria.



/won't somebody think of the children

This is an excellent point, Lafayette Square, the CWE, Soulard, etc. have all gentrified to some extent in the last 20 years. These neighborhoods add to those who shop downtown as well. Add 5K or more additional residents in downtown since 1985 . . . where's that beating a dead horse emoticon?

SoulardD, I've noticed you've been posting here for a long time. "SoulardX" has been my Halo2 (and now Halo3) and Rams board handle for years. The great neighborhood of Soulard obviously has room for two forum loud mouths....



Dina/everyone else, point taken: the inclusion of the neighborhoods surrounding downtown that have gentrified in the last few decades does increase the potential customer base substantially. Maybe the DT retail doesn't need to be unique so much as simply there to make money. Still, from my halfass day-to-day observation, it doesn't seem to be there yet. The stores on Washington are usually emtpy. (I was the only guy in Lee J at lunch today.) Let's hope that changes for the long haul with all this DT momentum. I certainly hope so.

Project draws backing from East Coast partner

By Riddhi Trivedi-St. Clair

ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH

09/27/2007



One of the nation's largest retail developers says the time is right to jump on the downtown St. Louis renovation bandwagon.



On Wednesday, Chicago-based General Growth Properties Inc. was introduced as manager for $400 million Mercantile Exchange. The Chicago-based company is owner, developer or manager of 200 regional malls across the country.



What drew it to downtown St. Louis was the upswing in economic activity over the last several years, said Mark Hunter, vice president for leasing and client services.



"If it's the right opportunity, General Growth will look at it," Hunter said. "In recent years there has been a significant demographic shift. The number of markets (nationally) where you have people from the suburbs deciding to move downtown is growing."



St. Louis, apparently, is one of those markets. The downtown population, after many years of steady declines, has been growing in the last five to seven years. Downtown St. Louis Partnership estimates that 10,000 people are living in downtown. That figure is expected to grow to 15,000 by 2010.



That growth caught the eye of General Growth, which in recent years has turned its focus toward urban centers. The company, which started out as an owner, developer and manager of suburban regional shopping malls, has been redeveloping retail properties to include more uses such as office and condos.



Continue reading

SoulardX wrote:SoulardD, I've noticed you've been posting here for a long time. "SoulardX" has been my Halo2 (and now Halo3) and Rams board handle for years. The great neighborhood of Soulard obviously has room for two forum loud mouths....



Dina/everyone else, point taken: the inclusion of the neighborhoods surrounding downtown that have gentrified in the last few decades does increase the potential customer base substantially. Maybe the DT retail doesn't need to be unique so much as simply there to make money. Still, from my halfass day-to-day observation, it doesn't seem to be there yet. The stores on Washington are usually emtpy. (I was the only guy in Lee J at lunch today.) Let's hope that changes for the long haul with all this DT momentum. I certainly hope so.

So...what is Lee J? Something most people would patronize on a regular basis? And in your words...able to make money? (realistically)



Most businesses fail, in like, what? the first year or two? I sometimes question why some people are led to believe that their business they choose could possibly make any money.



What do most people need or want? We all know from Economics 101, the recession proof material goods. Alcohol, cosmetics (& I don't remember the 3rd one... ) Do people keep this in mind or do their research when opening a business ?



I mean, really ...boxers? More power to them if they can make it profitable.

so after reading 8 pages on this thread, no one has mentioned TWO factors:

Parking:

Face it, the majority of people in St. Louis still drive. Charging cars $12/ day to park WILL prevent this area from becoming a hot retail area,imho. Yes, in Chicago, NY, they can charge $20-50/Day. This is St. Louis and the "convenience" of parking at a mall for FREE is very real. Joe Edwards owns the HUGE lot to the north of the Loop and could easily charge people to park there, but he has said he won't because he's competing with malls in the county.



Patrons of the Mall:

A curfew might have saved the Galleria from the same fate of that of STLC and Northwest Plaza. Luckily, on a street bands of kids without parents can't "own" a street the way they can "own" a mall. Clearly, a number of west county patrons (or patrons in general) were uncomfortable with the way it managed the younger kids loitering around the mall. To validate my point,look at my neighborhood, the Loop, which is the most diverse shopping district in St. Louis. It attracts all walks of life and no one ever feels uncomfortable. Malls can too quickly become "branded" as being bad by having a few incidents, perhaps streets are slightly different.



MDTH, I think you raise a valid point, which I think is: Will repositioning the sames stores that filled STLC to face the street grid be successful?



Sure, in a worst case scenario, Gap could open and close quickly due to lack of sales. Look at the local Blend store, it recently closed. I think it will take time. I don't see how you fault Pyramid for attempting to raise the bar. As more residents move in and for the other reasons people have provided, I really do think it will be a success this time.