urbanSTL

Blzhrpmd2 wrote:At least if MX fails it won't leave a third barren wasteland downtown.

Some might say parts of MX are currently already a barren wasteland.

MX has a huge advantage over BPV in a very important aspect. It has structures and infrastructure in place. Some of that space is easily convertable betwee lofts, rentals and hotel rooms depending on what the market is dictating. The other aspect is a ready made office tower that is being refurbished into Class A office space. Add historic tax credits, limited amount of time it took to put together a development plan, and the fact that the property is owned by the local developers whose livelyhood depends on filling that space instead of ticket sales.

Blzhrpmd2 wrote:I'm tired of this trend: what fails in Bottle District will likely end up in BPV. What fails in BPV will likely end up in MX. What fails in MX will likely end up....?.....followed by "blank project of all the projects is likely to succeed." Not good. The fact that MX is to BPV as BPV is to Bottle District is disgusting. At least if MX fails it won't leave a third barren wasteland downtown.

I'm not exactly fond of this trend either. However, we're talking about three large-scale projects downtown, and that doesn't even include the recently-opened Lumiere Place or the plans for Chouteau's Landing south of downtown. Factor in the economy, the collapse of the Centene deal, and the loss of hundreds of jobs at Macy's Midwest, and nothing is really a sure thing anymore.



The same could probably be said for other major projects in other major cities- now is just not a good time to get something of this magnitude off the ground, so to speak. In other words, I don't think the trend of stalled or delayed projects says anything about St. Louis as much as it does about the overall national/global economic picture. There will be hiccups along the way, but I think the urban living trend will continue here and elsewhere, and I think MX is best positioned to take advantage of the trend.



As Dredger pointed out, the advantage with MX is that the infrastructure is already in place. Existing buildings will be rehabbed, and the former St. Louis Centre will be stripped down to its skeleton and rebuilt. I'd have to believe the work required to get MX going is far less that what would have to take place at The Bottle District or Ballpark Village. Others here know far more about construction and the financing that makes it happen than me, and I'd like to hear their opinions on the matter. Still, in a tough market like this, some attrition is inevitable, even if it is a bit painful for those of us that hoped all of the proposed projects would be built in the next three to five years.

Blzhrpmd2 wrote:I'm tired of this trend: what fails in Bottle District will likely end up in BPV. What fails in BPV will likely end up in MX. What fails in MX will likely end up....?.....followed by "blank project of all the projects is likely to succeed." Not good. The fact that MX is to BPV as BPV is to Bottle District is disgusting. At least if MX fails it won't leave a third barren wasteland downtown.

If the trend is reality, should we hate reality? I don't. If the reality is the economy or other environmental aspects, ok. TBD was just beat to the punch by Pinnacle. Basically, I think BPV problems stemmed from the worsening macroeconomic environment and Centene losing half of its stock valuation in three months. I'm sure all the inter-entity squabbling was related to that.



We'll move on and be ok.

Hey guys, this is my first post, although I have been a spectator in urbanstl for a while now. I do have to say that other cities are experiencing the exact same thing that St. Louis is right now in terms of stalled projects. I just moved to Phoenix for business from St. louis and even with Phoenix being one of the fastest growing cities in the country, they have projects that have either stalled or have just completely froze with the project half finished. CityScape which is "or was" a new entertainment district being built right in the heart of downtown Phoenix has completely stopped with a giant hole in the ground. (sound familiar? BPV) There are also several projects in the city of Tempe that have also stalled. So my point is, it's not just St. Louis that is suffering setbacks for major projects downtown. It's even some of the fastest growing cities that are also having problems. Remember, we're in a recession. I give it another 10-12 months and things will start to improve.

ryanbrick wrote:Remember, we're in a recession.

We are?

^And what if I ask smart people?



re·ces·sion 1 (r?-s?sh'?n)

n.

1. The act of withdrawing or going back.

2. An extended decline in general business activity, typically two consecutive quarters of falling real gross national product.

3. The withdrawal in a line or file of participants in a ceremony, especially clerics and choir members after a church service.



re·ces·sion 2 (r?-s?sh'?n)

n. Law

The act of restoring possession to a former owner.



http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/recession



I don't know about you people, but I ain't withdrawing or going back, not gonna be in any ceremonies any time soon, and I sure as hell ain't giving anything back to anyone, so I guess that just leaves No. 2. But...

The National Bureau of Economic Research formally defines a recession as three consecutive quarters of falling real gross domestic product.

Either way, neither of those has happened yet.

^

http://tinyurl.com/334b73 wrote:"This morning the Commerce Department reiterated fourth-quarter GDP, which came in at 0.6%. The final GDP reading was sharply lower than the previous quarter but still managed to stay in positive territory -- meaning the U.S. has not yet had one of the two quarters of negative growth that is typically needed to consider a slowdown a recession."

So there haven't been two consecutive quarters of negative growth. The signs are on the wall, however...



Smart folks will buy puts on Lehman Brothers (LEH) because they're the next to fall. Of course analysts will say those traders are causing its demise but its just not true. LEH and our financial system are troubled. The market is efficient and although it can be irrational at times, naturally corrects itself.

Well, we can debate the topic of recession til the cows come home. The real issue I wanted to address is that projects like MX, BPV, and even God forbid TBD are either stalling or slowing down in many other cities. Even in cities where you wouldn't think they would stall. And that it possibly is reflective more on the economic situation we're in. (notice I didn't use the word recession this time)

ryanbrick wrote:Hey guys, this is my first post, although I have been a spectator in urbanstl for a while now. I do have to say that other cities are experiencing the exact same thing that St. Louis is right now in terms of stalled projects. I just moved to Phoenix for business from St. louis and even with Phoenix being one of the fastest growing cities in the country, they have projects that have either stalled or have just completely froze with the project half finished. CityScape which is "or was" a new entertainment district being built right in the heart of downtown Phoenix has completely stopped with a giant hole in the ground. (sound familiar? BPV) There are also several projects in the city of Tempe that have also stalled. So my point is, it's not just St. Louis that is suffering setbacks for major projects downtown. It's even some of the fastest growing cities that are also having problems. Remember, we're in a recession. I give it another 10-12 months and things will start to improve.

I moved from Tempe to St. Louis last summer.



The main difference is that the past 5 years Tempe/Phoenix/Scottsdale... every project I heard of, was built. Not only built, but build FAST. I guess 330+ days of sunshine helps that.



Also, Phoenix/Tempe/Scottsdale/Chandler is just one MEGA County. You will soon find out how efficient they are in their city planning. It is quite impressive.



I wish their city officials gave a speech here.

True, true. It blows me away the amount of animosity that's between St. Louis County and St. Louis City. Or even the state of Missouri for that matter.

The link below is to a MayorSlay.com update on the Laurel. I put in this thread, rather than the Laurel thread, because of its mention of John Steffen's MX.



http://www.mayorslay.com/desk/display.asp?deskID=950

So how many condo units will be available? It sounds as if the amount of units will be reduced to make room for the hotel.

--> about the TIF



From mayor Slay



The City’s TIF Commission met last week to set public hearings for tax increment financing for several very important developments: the Farm & Home Building at 10th and Locust Streets; Phase two of the City Hospital development at 14th Street and Lafayette Avenue; and a reconfiguration of the development plan for the former Dillard’s Building at 7th Street and Washington Avenue.



All of these developments are primarily commercial in nature — a shift from the past in which many TIF developments were primarily residential. Barb Geisman calls this is a “silver lining” to the slowdown in the housing market: more developers are now looking at office and retail uses for their property. I think this shift is welcome as we work to provide more quality office and retail spaces that will attract new businesses and jobs to the City.



The City’s residential market remains healthy, although homes and condominiums are selling at a slower rate, particularly in the middle price range where prospective buyers must sell their existing home in order to be able to buy a new home in the City. First-time homebuyers and those with significant wealth do not have this issue and the market in the lower and upper price ranges remains strong.



Let’s look a little closer at the projects:



The Farm & Home Building was home to the Kinloch Telephone Company when it was originally constructed in the late 1800s. The building began its decline when the company was purchased by Bell Telephone. In the middle of the last century, its historic exterior detail was removed and the building was cladded with “modern” metal panels. Thereafter, it served to fill a need for Class C office space until it became entirely vacant in the 1990s. (Sadly, its wonderful historic exterior, visible in photographs taken before the metal panels were installed, cannot be recreated.) Craig Heller purchased the building several years ago. Heller has recently been focused on the historic rehabilitation of the Syndicate Trust Building and the Ludwig Aeolian development on Olive Street. Now that these projects are nearly complete, he is turning his attention to the Farm & Home. If he gets the TIF, Heller proposes to develop the building as quality Class B office space, with first floor retail space, that can attract the same type of office and retail tenants he has successfully brought to the Ludwig Lofts.



The “Phase Two” of the City Hospital development includes several historic buildings and one building that will be newly constructed to be compatible with the complex’s historic character. Chris Goodson and Trace Shaughnessey’s Gilded Age is the owner and developer of this property. With a TIF, the property will be a new home for Butler’s Pantry, a catering company that will offer new banquet facilities and catering from the City Hospital location. Restaurant and office space, along with several residential condominiums in the former superintendent’s home, will also be offered. (For background: Phase One of the development was the historic rehabilitation of the main hospital facility, fronting on Lafayette and highly visible from I-44 and I-55. This building’s transformation has made a dramatic improvement to the appearance of its neighborhood. Phase Three, already approved, is the development of a new shopping center south of the main hospital building between Lafayette and I-44. Construction is expected to commence on this development soon.)



I will update you on the change of plans for the former Dillard’s Building tomorrow.

Let's recreate this "shopping center" area as noted in the postcard from the 1910's. Let's bring back those huge flags, incredible signage, etc. This looks more vibrant than Toronto or most other cities. It's truly incredible that we lost this vibrancy.

Yeah, the flags are cool. I'm actually surprised that the loft developers haven't restored some of those old Washington Avenue flagpoles.

I think that 99% of St. Louisans have NO IDEA that St. Louis ever looked like those photos. No knowledge of our once thriving downtown. depressing...thank god it's coming back.

Framer wrote:Yeah, the flags are cool. I'm actually surprised that the loft developers haven't restored some of those old Washington Avenue flagpoles.

I'm not. What would they hang from them? Only red state mouthbreathers fly the American flag these days. Maybe we could hang some perpetually-burning American flags? Young bohemians would think that was really cool and flock to our city.

There's any number of flags and banners that could be flown. The Rams, the Cardinals, the City of St. Louis, the name of the building or a major tenant. Nobody said they have to be the American flag (although I'd be proud to fly one, even if that makes me a "mouthbreather", whatever that means).