urbanSTL

ArchMadness wrote:

loftlover wrote:


New to the lineup: Bar Management Group, also of Charlotte, has agreed to lease 60,000 square feet of space for several restaurants and nightclubs. Ghazi has decided to build a 1-acre park in the middle of the 18-acre development. He is planning to build stores facing private streets, with 250 apartments to be built above the stores.

Private streets and another hotel? Am I the only one with concerns about the viability of this project? I'd rather see nothing built than a half assed version of the Boulevard on Brentwood. They shouldn't have dropped the 60 story condo tower. It could have been an icon that could have drawn people into the area.

Agree 100 percent this sounds like a suburbia megaplex (Boulevard) at this point. I say just leave it empty, and wait a few years until people feel better about it. Why build something uninspiring in prime space. I mean I can wait three or four years to ride the go carts around. I Also agree with the tower being the biggest thing that would have attracted the high end buyers from BPV.

So, is it only ONE 20 story tower? How can that support the district?

The rendering in today's paper looks basically like this one:

Maybe Van Der Werf is referring to the fact that they are only STARTING with one twenty story residential tower. But this has always been true.

First phase Mike....the project is currently larger than the original proposed project. We will build up to hopefully 60 stories as the market demands it.

C'mon market, demand it!

Maybe Van Der Werf is referring to the fact that they are only STARTING with one twenty story residential tower. But this has always been true.

I hope that's the case. He's got a knack for making good news seem negative in the city.

I really don't think we need another hotel.....There is a problem filling the existing ones. That's why there has been talk of changing the Renaissance Suites to residential. I too am disappointed that the 60 story tower is out. I can only hope that the actual residential tower(s) and the hotel will look alot better than the latest rendering. Whoever drew the lastest rendering, didn't put alot of time and effort in making it look appealing to those of us who are wanting to see St. Louis 'break' out of it's shell, so to speak, and become the city it should be, and who are reading and replying to this forum. As much as I want to see dynamic looking high rise buildings going up in TBD, it needs to complement the rest of downtown.

I may be mistaken, but aren't the projects 400 meters north of this area? How is that going to work? A trendy hotel quite close to the projects.... Nice...



We're talking about drugs, carjacking and violence within walking distance of the Bottle District. I'm not making a blanket statement on all people that live in the projects, but it is clear that the element is there and seems prevalent.



How is this going to be addressed?

Expat wrote:Someone else might have a better handle on the hotel situation. However, my hunch is that the new hotel will be rather small and not take a big bite out of the market. It won't have a 1,000 rooms. Aren't W Hotels usually small but ultra trendy? Besides, by the time it is completed, The Grand will have resolved its financial difficulties and possibly shed some rooms due to conversion of the old Lennox as condos? And I believe that DT will see an increase in hotel visitors over the next few years. The city is back and people are starting to notice.

innov8ion wrote:I may be mistaken, but aren't the projects 400 meters north of this area?

Hey! What's this meter b.s.? Put it in terms that someone from South County can understand.

innov8ion wrote:How is this going to be addressed?

looks like it's going to be addressed by private streets, perhaps the reason you point out is why they're doing this. I hate to see another project isolated from the street grid.

St. Louis Loyalist wrote:I too am disappointed that the 60 story tower is out.

Actually I'm glad to see them approaching this more cautiously. As you can see from the quote above, they'll build to 60 stories as the market demands. I'd rather see this than a huge tower that sits unoccupied and is seen as a failure.

Honestly I think we are looking too much at the towers. Remember that there are buissneses that may not open because of a possible failure of the Bottle district. A tall tower or two is nice, but buissness will make people come more.

They shouldn't have dropped the 60 story condo tower. It could have been an icon that could have drawn people into the area.

They haven't.... it is just not in Phase I



I am pleased with the initial Plase I plans myself.

Note that the rendering in the Post today is only conceptual. The developer said the actual design of the first tower will be unveiled in 8 weeks.

This isn't about isolation from different economic classes. It's about isolation from violence, carjackings and drugs. I could care less how much people make. I and others just want to be reasonably safe.



Low-income areas don't have to be crime-ridden. It's a systemic problem that must be addressed if St. Louis Downtown will be truly successful. Time will tell and believe me, if there are some high-profile cases then investment will sloowwww down, people will start moving out and valuations will decrease.



So yeah, I'm fine with them blocking off the Bottle District w/ private streets from crime-ridden areas.

Jeff wrote:
Dude, that's life in the big city. Very expensive developments often border more "sketchy" areas. Sometimes the whole area will gentrify, sometimes not. Although crime and violence are certainly never appealing, economic diversity is. As a middle class person, I don't want to be completely isolated from lower income people or higher income people. That's what's great about the city-diverse people. Diversity in income, ethnicity, country of origin, etc.



Furthermore, this project may be a catalyst for change in the neighborhood. Maybe crime will be properly addressed now that rich people move in. Let's face it-a neighborhood full of impoverished minorities doesn't always get the civic attention of more affluent 'hoods. HUD is moving more towards mixed income housing anyway. The big "projects" highrise buildings will probably come down soon anyway.



With ONSL redeveloping on one side and downtwon blooming on the other, that section of the city will undoubtedly change before too long. Look at the nighborhood bordering Chicago's infamous Cabrini Green-Cabrini Green gentrification

I think having Cabo Wabo and Rawlings will help. People need a reason to drive past The Boulevard next to the Galleria and go on downtown for entertainment.



Hopefully the downtown housing increase will help also.

There aren't a whole lot or residents in the area immediately around the BD. And there are a couple projects in the works that will put more people to the west of the area, so I don't view crime as a problem for this project at all.



But how is this plan different from the original. I was always under the impression that the first phase wouldn't involve the big tower that was introduced. I thought it was the plan to build up as the market demanded, it's why they planned it in phases.

Well I think the confusion stems from the article in the paper which more or less said things such as "Out is the 60 story tower replaced by a 20 story condo" That's not word for word, but it was something along those lines. It was pasted a couple pages back. You do have to take the dispatch with a grain of salt, so I will try not to jump so fast until more concrete info is out. The developer could of course negate all this with concrete information. If I read that tidbit, and if what they say is true as they replied to one of the posters; then I would be looking into some better PR avenues because what was in the post could hardly be seen as positive spin lol.





Afshin Ghazi, founder of Ghazi Co., says he is focused in the first phase of the project on getting a mix of buildings done, and seeing where it goes from there.



Does that sound like confidence? I mean thinking that privately is one thing, but releasing that is silly IMO. I realize this was probably nothing more then a conversation, but come on you're trying to sell this thing and not sound like you're going to cross your fingers and hope for the best ha ha.

SoulardD wrote:Multiple condo towers with the biggest at 60 stories to one condo tower at 20 stories? Ouch.

IMO, this project lost all the excitment and real potential it had. It was perhaps a "too good to be true" case for this city.



Truly pathetic.

What don't people understand about the fact that the 60 story tower was NEVER part of phase one. Go back and look at the old info, TBD has always been planned in phases, and the phase one tower has always been planned from 20-30 stories. What is it with us Americans and instant gratification syndrome?

matguy70 wrote:

They shouldn't have dropped the 60 story condo tower. It could have been an icon that could have drawn people into the area.

They haven't.... it is just not in Phase I



I am pleased with the initial Plase I plans myself.

How can you be pleased with the Phase 1 plans (something that isn't going to be unveiled for 8 weeks, supposedly) - are you psychic or are you responding to the current renderings on the website? If these guys are not careful the tenants they keep dragging out in the press (Cabo+Wabo, Rawlings All-American Grille) are going to end up at the BPV - that is if the developers continue to subtract valuable and necessary critical mass from this project.

I get the feeling that Cordish will bring in all of their usual suspects for BPV, so there will be little risk of losing Cabo/Rawlings/Etc.

Urban Elitist wrote:What don't people understand about the fact that the 60 story tower was NEVER part of phase one. Go back and look at the old info, TBD has always been planned in phases, and the phase one tower has always been planned from 20-30 stories. What is it with us Americans and instant gratification syndrome?

Sorry, I admit I misunderstood Ver Der Werf's article. I did say something about him putting negative spins on things. Hopefully Ghazi will do something through PR to counter the confusion Van Der Werf has caused and people will continue to be optimistic about this project. There's nothing I'd like to see more than for people to be excited and generate the type of demand needed to get that 60 story tower built in a later phase. Also, hopefully Phase 1 will do enough to impress everyone and up the demand itself.

^ I wasn't trying to single you out SoulardD. I was just getting increasingly annoyed as more and more poeple kept posting here about how dissapointed they are about the 60 story tower being dropped and about Phase 1 when this plan is exactally what Ghazi promised for Phase 1 all along.



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Guy Legend wrote:Truly pathetic.

What's so pathetic? That they follwed their original plan and delivered exactally what they promised? Geeze.



MARTIN VAN DER WERFTHLESS STOP CONFUSING PEOPLE!

I agree, and I think it created a lot of needless backlash. If I were the developer I would choose my wording more carefully or direct them to public relations; or if need be hire them. This is why you should never talk to the press when you don't understand that they are waiting to slant the story in any way they see fit. Luckily most people are not like those of us in this forum, and they probably paid little attention, as they never knew the details of the project in the first place. You just don't want to create negative perceptions at this crucial stage of the project. He probably had no idea that he was going to slant it. I'm sure he got enough angry emails to teach him a quick lesson on how to be careful with the press LOL.