urbanSTL

How can you be pleased with the Phase 1 plans (something that isn't going to be unveiled for 8 weeks, supposedly) - are you psychic or are you responding to the current renderings on the website? If these guys are not careful the tenants they keep dragging out in the press (Cabo+Wabo, Rawlings All-American Grille) are going to end up at the BPV - that is if the developers continue to subtract valuable and necessary critical mass from this project.

Did you not read the article. The only portion of the "new plans" to be drawn up is the new "20 story" residential tower. They have added the W Hotel drawings to the Phase I already. The only thing missing is the new condo tower drawing.



From the article: ""Final plans for the condo tower, which will rise to about 20 stories, will be released in about eight weeks, he says.""



So... yes, I am pleased with the Phase I.

matguy70 wrote:

How can you be pleased with the Phase 1 plans (something that isn't going to be unveiled for 8 weeks, supposedly) - are you psychic or are you responding to the current renderings on the website? If these guys are not careful the tenants they keep dragging out in the press (Cabo+Wabo, Rawlings All-American Grille) are going to end up at the BPV - that is if the developers continue to subtract valuable and necessary critical mass from this project.

Did you not read the article. The only portion of the "new plans" to be drawn up is the new "20 story" residential tower. They have added the W Hotel drawings to the Phase I already. The only thing missing is the new condo tower drawing.



From the article: ""Final plans for the condo tower, which will rise to about 20 stories, will be released in about eight weeks, he says.""



So... yes, I am pleased with the Phase I.

With the mind-boggling circuitous route this project has taken everyone on since it's initial public presentation I personally think it would be wiser to wait and see if anything really comes out of the ground - but we should at least wait until they come to the table with some documents that possess a greater level of detail than the most recent plans/renderings (the most recent renderings on the website appear like you're viewing a picture through beer-goggles).

They have added the W Hotel drawings to the Phase I already. The only thing missing is the new condo tower drawing.

If they do build a W hotel then that would be huge for downtown. The W hotel chain seems to be very selective with the cities they build in. If they do build it, will the condos be associated with it? They recently built one next to the American Airlines Arena in downtown Dallas and it is truly amazing.



Here is the website for the W Hotel in Dallas w/ the condos.



http://www.victorydallas.com/index_flash.html

JMedwick wrote:Second, in scaling back this project, maybe Ghazi is simply being more public with its market info and sadly, the market is not as deep as we want it too be and worse, a similar fate may await other downtown new construction project.

A lot of people read this website and I don't think we need to keep contributing to Ver Der Werf's error over and over again. This project has not been scaled back. The project has always been multi-phased and the current size of Phase 1 is consistent with what Ghazi has been saying all along. A 60 story tower was never in the works for phase one.

While I was saddened to see TBD lose it's momentum to the BPV, I think maybe a saving grace for TBD is the advancement of both the Pinnacle development and the Michael Kennedy project to the west. The Kennedy project will help clean up some of the area near TBD and provide multi-family housing for a very diverse client base (I believe 30% of this project will still be government subsidized housing), and the Pinnacle development will add to the necessary entertainment "critical mass" needed for this area to be a year-round success. I hope they assist in jump starting TBD and we can see what the developer truly has planned for Phase 1. Does anyone know the status of the Neighborhood Gardens project?

like it or not, the momentum and talk has dwindelled. Why?

Well, obviously, they want to bring this project back to the forefront with the this most recent article in the PD and press release.



I worry more about the Ballpark Village than this project to be honest.



I also think that some of you are really think that it has been awhile since this project was in the forefront... however, let's not forget that this project was only announced just over a year ago and HAS drastically changed since then. They are pooring the money into this project and not just throwing up some crap quickly, which I think is a smart move period. I am also glad to se the new signage that has gone up in the past month on the cleared properties and area. I am also glad they are using a very reputable and sound company like Ghazi. I personally think the project looks best ever now and more "intuned" to what needs to be constructed in this area of downtown for residential.







from this:





to this:







to this:







current Ghazi Site for St. Louis' Botle District (updated May 2006)



http://www.theghazicompany.com/future_stl.htm

JMedwick-

I don't dispute that momentum for this project has dwindled, mostly due to a very poor if existant at all PR department at Ghazi. I think it's sad because this could be a great project if Ghazi would just publicy throw their weight behind it. But we are not helping Ghazi or TBD by using this site to spread misinformation about the project being scaled back. Ghazi is bringing alot to the plate with Phase 1; A new construction residential tower, a W hotel, and a lot of mixed use retail and entertainent. Ghazi never said anything about not moving beyond Phase 2, in fact they haven't said much of anything which is a big part of the problem.



We shouldn't say the project is scaled back unless it is actually scaled back by Ghazi, not because we claim to see "little evidence, if any, that the developers see it getting beyond this phase" even before Phase 1 is complete or its plans completely unvailed. How can we know what Ghazi is thinking before Phase 1 is even off of the ground and the market has been tested? STL has a very young DT market and we are going to have to accept the fact that it will take time for our market to mature to the point where massive towers can be built in the blink of an eye as is done in established DTs like Chicagos. I for one am glad they aren't rushing and building junk just to satisfy some STL whiners who want everything now now now.



matguy70-

Well said.

To be perfectly honest, I would be pleased to just see Phase I built (oh course I would like to see all phases completely and I do believe this will be done). But the building of Phase I will be a forefront for new construction downtown.

Let's not forget about the new Pinnacle Tower being built (under construction) right across from this.

I wish they were going with the second plan. It looks bold and modern. The latest one looks fine, but isn't nearly as impressive as the bold design of the second plan.

JCity wrote:I wish they were going with the second plan. It looks bold and modern. The latest one looks fine, but isn't nearly as impressive as the bold design of the second plan.

Couldn't agree with you less. The second plan is all glitz over substance. Absolutely underwhelming, the second plan is the least appealing on several levels. I still think the first plan (if it could have been developed more through the design phases) had huge potential. That being said, the third plan has similar potential - I just hope we can see some actual detail on the buildings so we can formulate an educated opinion.

Article on Bottle District/Ballpark Village from the Business Journal:



Digging Downtown

jambalaya wrote:

JCity wrote:I wish they were going with the second plan. It looks bold and modern. The latest one looks fine, but isn't nearly as impressive as the bold design of the second plan.

Couldn't agree with you less. The second plan is all glitz over substance. Absolutely underwhelming, the second plan is the least appealing on several levels. I still think the first plan (if it could have been developed more through the design phases) had huge potential. That being said, the third plan has similar potential - I just hope we can see some actual detail on the buildings so we can formulate an educated opinion.

Couldn't agree with you less. That first design looks like it belongs next to the Boulevard; not in a city wanting to make a comeback statement.

"Afshin Ghazi, president and founder of The Ghazi Co., confirmed this week that 75 percent of the development's planned 330,000 square feet of retail space has been leased. New tenant signings include Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide Inc.'s 150-room W Aloft Hotel and the lease of 60,000 square feet of space by Charlotte-based Bar Management Group for seven to 10 restaurant/entertainment venues. Bar Management Group operates several restaurant and bar chains in markets throughout the country. These new tenants join previously announced tenants, the Cabo Wabo Cantina restaurant, Grand Prix Speedways Formula One go-kart track and Rawlings All American Grille and adjoining museum, which will open locations in the Bottle District."



Wow

for those of you that don't want to "link", here is the Biz Journal article... a good read:



Digging downtown



Is there room for out-of-town developers Ghazi, Cordish to play in St. Louis' sandbox?



St. Louis Business Journal - May 12, 2006by Lisa R. Brown



Developers of two multimillion-dollar entertainment, office and residential projects on opposite ends of downtown St. Louis are gearing up for a race over who can get off the ground first.



Some say the $650 million Gateway Village and Bottle District north of the Edward Jones Dome and the $650 million Ballpark Village next to Busch Stadium on the south side of the central business district can successfully co-exist. But the developers of the two massive projects are both promising to bring the first new-construction high-rise residential tower to the city in more than a decade. They both say they'll bring 360,000 square feet of retail and entertainment tenants, with construction set to begin by the end of this year. And, both are floating Borders as a potential tenant.



Along with the question of whether the pool of tenants, residents, and shoppers is deep enough to support the developments, there's also the question of whether there's enough city subsidy to go around. The Ghazi Co., the lead developer on Gateway Village and the Bottle District, is one step ahead of Cordish Co., the developer of Ballpark Village, having secured $51.5 million in tax increment financing from the city. Cordish is asking for millions of dollars in public subsidy, but has not disclosed the amount it is requesting from the city. At the same time, St. Louis-based Pyramid Cos. has requested a $34.3 million TIF from the city for its redevelopment of St. Louis Centre, which also has Borders on its short list of desired tenants.



Charlotte, N.C.-based The Ghazi Co., lead developer of Gateway Village, the residential and office portion of the development at Interstate 70 and Broadway, and the Bottle District, which will include restaurants and entertainment venues, plans to begin construction of the first $350 million phase of the project by the end of this summer. Subsequent phases, which include plans for a 45-story office tower designed by New York-based Daniel Libeskind and three residential towers, push the project past the $650 million mark.



The developers behind Ballpark Village, a 50-50 partnership between the St. Louis Cardinals and the Baltimore, Md.-based Cordish Co., say they want to begin construction this fall on the now-vacant site of the former Busch Stadium. Cordish has opened a local office at the Bank of America Plaza, and will have a staff of 15 by July.



Site work and demolition on the 18-acre Gateway Village and Bottle District site is nearly complete. The Ghazi Co. has three employees in St. Louis at an office at the McGuire Moving & Storage headquarters on the site of Gateway Village. St. Louis-based Forum Studios is the lead architect, and Clayco is the general contractor. Greg Smith of Husch & Eppenberger is the lead attorney, and Joi Niedner of St. Charles-based McKelvey Properties is the local leasing agent.



Afshin Ghazi, president and founder of The Ghazi Co., confirmed this week that 75 percent of the development's planned 330,000 square feet of retail space has been leased. New tenant signings include Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide Inc.'s 150-room W Aloft Hotel and the lease of 60,000 square feet of space by Charlotte-based Bar Management Group for seven to 10 restaurant/entertainment venues. Bar Management Group operates several restaurant and bar chains in markets throughout the country. These new tenants join previously announced tenants, the Cabo Wabo Cantina restaurant, Grand Prix Speedways Formula One go-kart track and Rawlings All American Grille and adjoining museum, which will open locations in the Bottle District.



Bob Durkin, president of Bar Management Group, said the company is still determining the mix of tenants to bring to the Bottle District. "The Ghazi Co. is about the best in the business, and the city itself has major league baseball and football. The location is in the cross-hairs of everything that's going on."



Ghazi also announced the conversion of McGuire Moving & Storage's headquarters into 100 loft condominiums and the construction of a 250-unit apartment tower will begin this year. Owner Dan McGuire is an investment partner in the Bottle District and co-developer. The condos will start in the $200,000s.



The Cordish Co. has not released any tenant leases for Ballpark Village, which will span six city blocks, have 360,000 square feet of retail and entertainment tenants, 1,200 residential units in three towers and 300,000 square feet of office space. "Each project that Cordish does is unique to the city it's being developed in," said Kimber Goodwin, Cordish's public relations director.



Although developers of both the Bottle District and Ballpark Village say they will start construction by the end of the year, neither has announced banks that will back the projects.



St. Louis-based Royal Bank was the lender on the property assemblage and work to date at the Bottle District. Atlanta-based Noble Investment Group Ltd. will own and manage the W Aloft hotel.



Ghazi said having Gateway Village and the Bottle District north of downtown and away from the congestion during Cardinals games will be attractive to residents and retailers. "A key thing with a project like this is, it needs to be in the thick of things, but you don't want to be locked in near the front of Busch Stadium, where there are more than 70 games a year," Ghazi said. "I think we have an exceptional opportunity here, with the visibility off of I-70. We will be the first thing you will see coming into St. Louis."



lrbrown@bizjournals.com



this quote from the article is NOT quite exactly true:

But the developers of the two massive projects are both promising to bring the first new-construction high-rise residential tower to the city in more than a decade

Not to the "city", but to DOWNTOWN ... yes.

^ Thanks for the link and article DeBaliviere and matguy70. Now that concrete information has been released proving no scaleback has occured, maybe this will put an end to the speculation of the "this project has been scaled back" whiners.

jfknet wrote:

jambalaya wrote:

JCity wrote:I wish they were going with the second plan. It looks bold and modern. The latest one looks fine, but isn't nearly as impressive as the bold design of the second plan.

Couldn't agree with you less. The second plan is all glitz over substance. Absolutely underwhelming, the second plan is the least appealing on several levels. I still think the first plan (if it could have been developed more through the design phases) had huge potential. That being said, the third plan has similar potential - I just hope we can see some actual detail on the buildings so we can formulate an educated opinion.

Couldn't agree with you less. That first design looks like it belongs next to the Boulevard; not in a city wanting to make a comeback statement.

You are obviously welcome to your opinion, but I obviously do not share it. I was a classmate of the designer of the first master plan for this project (and what you were viewing with scheme one was their master plan, it had not even started a schematic design phase but at least had a nice level of detail to view and comment on). Apparently, the first scheme was so highly respected that the city awarded TBD a $51.3 million dollar TIF package (scheme 1 was the plan presented to the city at their TIF hearings). I think the 3rd scheme provided by Ghazi's architect has some similar site planning elements to the first scheme and has a lot of potential. I am wondering exactly what redeeming urban value the second scheme provided (it is really shiny - I will give you that, but it is horrible urban planning IMO).

Oh Well, no point in arguing about two old designs that won't happen and which of them would've been better.



I'm excited to see the newest tower design, and the fact that 7-10 restaurant/entertainment venues will be included is awesome. Glad to hear that Van Der Werf had no clue what he was talking about, and this thing is supposed to be off the ground before the end of the year.

Urban Elitist wrote:^ Thanks for the link and article DeBaliviere and matguy70. Now that concrete information has been released proving no scaleback has occured, maybe this will put an end to the speculation of the "this project has been scaled back" whiners.

I'm sorry, but could you point out the "concrete information" from that article. It seemed like the same p.r. stuff we have been hearing about for over 1 1/2 years. If they truly have 250,000 s.f. already leased that is great news. I am a little curious as to why they cannot mention the financial institution providing the backing for this project (most banks - once committed to a project - are more than willing to put their name all over the project signs for the marketing value). I wish the names of these "7-10 retail, entertainment and restaurant tenants" would have some names. The reason being, the entire success or failure of this project will probably hinge on the proposed tenant mix and with them throwing out a retail tenant like BORDERS, I do not hold out much hope. BORDERS....give me a break (I love that all proposed downtown developments throw out the same retail name of BORDERS... that is LOL funny). Urban retail needs to be unique and not found on every THF outlot in the area - this is a little scary. I hope they can truly come to the table with "concrete information" because these carrots they keep dangling out there are a little tired (some of us have worked with developers for the last 25 years and know their M.O. - we are not that gullible).

jambalaya wrote:

jfknet wrote:

jambalaya wrote:

Couldn't agree with you less. The second plan is all glitz over substance. Absolutely underwhelming, the second plan is the least appealing on several levels. I still think the first plan (if it could have been developed more through the design phases) had huge potential. That being said, the third plan has similar potential - I just hope we can see some actual detail on the buildings so we can formulate an educated opinion.

Couldn't agree with you less. That first design looks like it belongs next to the Boulevard; not in a city wanting to make a comeback statement.

You are obviously welcome to your opinion, but I obviously do not share it. I was a classmate of the designer of the first master plan for this project (and what you were viewing with scheme one was their master plan, it had not even started a schematic design phase but at least had a nice level of detail to view and comment on). Apparently, the first scheme was so highly respected that the city awarded TBD a $51.3 million dollar TIF package (scheme 1 was the plan presented to the city at their TIF hearings). I think the 3rd scheme provided by Ghazi's architect has some similar site planning elements to the first scheme and has a lot of potential. I am wondering exactly what redeeming urban value the second scheme provided (it is really shiny - I will give you that, but it is horrible urban planning IMO).

LOL the city; especially at the time of those hearings; would have given a TIF package to a lemonade stand.

MidcoastSTL wrote:"Afshin Ghazi, president and founder of The Ghazi Co., confirmed this week that 75 percent of the development's planned 330,000 square feet of retail space has been leased. New tenant signings include Starwood Hotels & Resorts Worldwide Inc.'s 150-room W Aloft Hotel and the lease of 60,000 square feet of space by Charlotte-based Bar Management Group for seven to 10 restaurant/entertainment venues. Bar Management Group operates several restaurant and bar chains in markets throughout the country. These new tenants join previously announced tenants, the Cabo Wabo Cantina restaurant, Grand Prix Speedways Formula One go-kart track and Rawlings All American Grille and adjoining museum, which will open locations in the Bottle District."



Wow

This is the information I was referring to jambalaya. They state that they have in fact lived up to their promises and delivered a multitude of retail tenants. You have been cynical of this project all along and it seems that as more information comes out you find a new place to pick at Ghazi and TBD. Call it carrot dangling if you will, but I have faith that Ghazi is delivering on their promises and there has been no announcement by anyone that this project has been scaled back in any way shape or form. If you want to speculate on what you believe Ghazi to be doing fine, do so, you have that right.



As for the tenant mix, I never made any statements about that at all and you are attempting to expand my above statement beyond its original scope to a point where you can argue with it. The tenant mix can be discussed once it is released, it still remains that Ghazi has booked tenants, something that would not have been possible in DT STL just 2 years ago, and committed to at least a 20 story tower as promised. If you have all of these questions/doubts why don?t you email Ghazi instead of spending your time lobbing shells at them on urbanstl.

jambalaya wrote:I'm sorry, but could you point out the "concrete information" from that article. It seemed like the same p.r. stuff we have been hearing about for over 1 1/2 years. If they truly have 250,000 s.f. already leased that is great news. I am a little curious as to why they cannot mention the financial institution providing the backing for this project (most banks - once committed to a project - are more than willing to put their name all over the project signs for the marketing value). I wish the names of these "7-10 retail, entertainment and restaurant tenants" would have some names. The reason being, the entire success or failure of this project will probably hinge on the proposed tenant mix and with them throwing out a retail tenant like BORDERS, I do not hold out much hope. BORDERS....give me a break (I love that all proposed downtown developments throw out the same retail name of BORDERS... that is LOL funny). Urban retail needs to be unique and not found on every THF outlot in the area - this is a little scary. I hope they can truly come to the table with "concrete information" because these carrots they keep dangling out there are a little tired (some of us have worked with developers for the last 25 years and know their M.O. - we are not that gullible).

jfknet wrote:

jambalaya wrote:

jfknet wrote:

Couldn't agree with you less. That first design looks like it belongs next to the Boulevard; not in a city wanting to make a comeback statement.

You are obviously welcome to your opinion, but I obviously do not share it. I was a classmate of the designer of the first master plan for this project (and what you were viewing with scheme one was their master plan, it had not even started a schematic design phase but at least had a nice level of detail to view and comment on). Apparently, the first scheme was so highly respected that the city awarded TBD a $51.3 million dollar TIF package (scheme 1 was the plan presented to the city at their TIF hearings). I think the 3rd scheme provided by Ghazi's architect has some similar site planning elements to the first scheme and has a lot of potential. I am wondering exactly what redeeming urban value the second scheme provided (it is really shiny - I will give you that, but it is horrible urban planning IMO).

LOL the city; especially at the time of those hearings; would have given a TIF package to a lemonade stand.

You obviously have never been through the TIF process before.