Like jambalaya said, it's interesting how Borders gets thrown out every time a new development is announced. Personally, I would like to see a Borders at 600 Washington/St. Louis Centre as opposed to TBD or BPV due to its proximity to downtown residents, workers and conventioneers/tourists. The other two options are not central enough, IMO.
jambalaya wrote:jfknet wrote:jambalaya wrote:
You are obviously welcome to your opinion, but I obviously do not share it. I was a classmate of the designer of the first master plan for this project (and what you were viewing with scheme one was their master plan, it had not even started a schematic design phase but at least had a nice level of detail to view and comment on). Apparently, the first scheme was so highly respected that the city awarded TBD a $51.3 million dollar TIF package (scheme 1 was the plan presented to the city at their TIF hearings). I think the 3rd scheme provided by Ghazi's architect has some similar site planning elements to the first scheme and has a lot of potential. I am wondering exactly what redeeming urban value the second scheme provided (it is really shiny - I will give you that, but it is horrible urban planning IMO).
LOL the city; especially at the time of those hearings; would have given a TIF package to a lemonade stand.
You obviously have never been through the TIF process before.
You would be correct, but just about everyone else doing anything downtown has.
jambalaya wrote:
I think it is funny that they haven't released the tenant listing they have signed up - why wouldn't you. Typically, if a developer has a large tenant signed up they will release the name with the hopes that others will play "follow-the-leader". Again, I originally started out being very excited about this project, but all the project iterations have detracted from my initial interest. I think Ghazi has done some nice projects in the past and some okay projects (I am very interested to see the final project...with some detail).
Frankly, with an organization called, "Bar Management Group" responsible for 7-10 restaurants and bars for the Bottle District, I'm a bit worried. With a single corporationn-type restaurant manager, I'm sure we're just going to end up with the same boring crap you'll find in any city. Probably no good diversity of venues and nothing unique to this area. I can just picture the list now- "chile's, Appleby's, planet hollywood, rainforest cafe..."
Furthermore, it sounds like all bar/restaurant/entertainment. Will there be no traditional retail? The mix is starting to sound a lot like the Landing or Union Station (minus the retail shops). The renderings and concepts sounded good, but now I'm getting worried. God I hope I'm wrong about this, though.
In my perfect world, they'd have hired Blake Brokaw, Pablo Weiss, and Joe Edwards to do it all.
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Jeff wrote:Frankly, with an organization called, "Bar Management Group" responsible for 7-10 restaurants and bars for the Bottle District, I'm a bit worried. With a single corporationn-type restaurant manager, I'm sure we're just going to end up with the same boring crap you'll find in any city. Probably no good diversity of venues and nothing unique to this area. I can just picture the list now- "chile's, Appleby's, planet hollywood, rainforest cafe..."
You forgot Friday's, Chevy's and O'Charley's!!!
But I agree. These are exactly the places we are going to get. Ditto for Ballpark Village.
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^ I agree we need to be more positive. It's easy so succumb to mob mentality and gang up on Ghazi when they are not here to respond. If there are a lot of chains in these new districts, so what? The leases are likely so expensive that a local startup cannot consider opening a new place there. There is plenty of space DT for local businesses to open up. It's a good thing that national chains are now viewing DT as a viable option. Last time I was in Chicago I'm pretty sure they had some national chains DT as well. I think we all just need to keep things in perspective. I am ecstatic that all of these projects are coming off of the ground, and if it takes a few national chains to attract more suburbanites DT where they can view or city?s renaissance first hand then so be it.
What is it with you guys? Did you really think a development company in Charlotte was going to canvass South Grand & University City for unsual indy eateries & indy bookstores? That isn't the role of the planned "villages" downtown. These companies (Cordish, too) are experts at providing nightlife for the masses: conventioneers, suburbanites, tourist, weekend urbanites, etc. They really do know what they are doing. Fortunately, they are are also adding residential & retail, etc. to provide an anchor for the long haul. But, there is no need to find failure in the project just because they bring nationally known bars and restaurants. I am grateful they are building sensibly sized & planned projects that can be retrofitted as part of a normal city as fashion changes. The latest info from Ghazi comforts me, because they make it clear that they are approaching this with good sense and not building a white elephant that will be come an embarrasment in ten years.
Even if they don't build anything that interests you personally, don't worry about it. You will still have this entire, fantastic city to amuse you.
My biggest concern has always been how these developments are integrated with their neighborhoods so they can evolve naturally. That is more important than what restaurant is signing at this time.
Even if they don't build anything that interests you personally, don't worry about it. You will still have this entire, fantastic city to amuse you.
My biggest concern has always been how these developments are integrated with their neighborhoods so they can evolve naturally. That is more important than what restaurant is signing at this time.
Urban Elitist wrote:^ I agree we need to be more positive. It's easy so succumb to mob mentality and gang up on Ghazi when they are not here to respond. If there are a lot of chains in these new districts, so what? The leases are likely so expensive that a local startup cannot consider opening a new place there. There is plenty of space DT for local businesses to open up. It's a good thing that national chains are now viewing DT as a viable option. Last time I was in Chicago I'm pretty sure they had some national chains DT as well. I think we all just need to keep things in perspective. I am ecstatic that all of these projects are coming off of the ground, and if it takes a few national chains to attract more suburbanites DT where they can view or city?s renaissance first hand then so be it.
I agree, the national chains are the anchors. Many local stores will locate close to the action to feed of the customers that they draw. There will be a nice mix of the two downtown, but the major developments will cater more towards tourists and suburbanites downtown for the game.
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SoulardD wrote:^^That's the positive attitude we like to see!
Thanks! I guess if I walk around with a smiley face, then that means all the restaurants will be locally owned!!
Me --->
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^^^ As is usually the case, well stated Expat. I don't really know what people were expecting from pre-conceived districts like TBD and BPV. This is what they are. I think some people here are losing sight of what DT actually is. It has to appeal to everyone, not just the small minority of us who are staunch urbanists, and like it or not the majority or people will visit these kinds of establishments. Luckily for us, we will have plenty or areas where there are more venues of substance.
Yes, chicago has lots of chains DT. It would be great if some chains successfully take up shop DT St. Louis. What has me concerned is that there seems to be one corporation in charge of 7-10 new bars/restaurants in an isolated "district". We on this forum know that a giant superblock macromanaged by one out of town corporation does not result in a successful urban neighborhood.
Regarding the comment about Ghazi scouring the loop for local merchants-yeah thanks, I'm not stupid. What they could have considered, though, was subcontracting the leasing to a local firm who knows the metro area a little better, and can bring in some local talent.
An entertainment district near a sports stadium with lots of well known chains would be successful for a while, but soon suburbanites will realize that it's not different from the P.F. Changs or Cheesecake factory closer to their homes. Maybe Ghazi et al will create a better mix than I expect, though. Hopefully they're reading this and taking note!
All that said, the concept of the Bottle District is very exciting. Pushing downtown development north, new residential & office towers, and a new downtown attraction will be great for the city. I just think that it'll take smart management to prevent this great assert from turning into a great liability (e.g. St. Louis Center).[/i]
Regarding the comment about Ghazi scouring the loop for local merchants-yeah thanks, I'm not stupid. What they could have considered, though, was subcontracting the leasing to a local firm who knows the metro area a little better, and can bring in some local talent.
An entertainment district near a sports stadium with lots of well known chains would be successful for a while, but soon suburbanites will realize that it's not different from the P.F. Changs or Cheesecake factory closer to their homes. Maybe Ghazi et al will create a better mix than I expect, though. Hopefully they're reading this and taking note!
All that said, the concept of the Bottle District is very exciting. Pushing downtown development north, new residential & office towers, and a new downtown attraction will be great for the city. I just think that it'll take smart management to prevent this great assert from turning into a great liability (e.g. St. Louis Center).[/i]
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Urban Elitist wrote:^ I agree we need to be more positive. It's easy so succumb to mob mentality and gang up on Ghazi when they are not here to respond. If there are a lot of chains in these new districts, so what? The leases are likely so expensive that a local startup cannot consider opening a new place there. There is plenty of space DT for local businesses to open up. It's a good thing that national chains are now viewing DT as a viable option. Last time I was in Chicago I'm pretty sure they had some national chains DT as well. I think we all just need to keep things in perspective. I am ecstatic that all of these projects are coming off of the ground, and if it takes a few national chains to attract more suburbanites DT where they can view or city?s renaissance first hand then so be it.
I'm not ganging up. I would certainly be much happier with non-chain places, however, that's not the way the world works anymore. But to be honest, I'm not going to do cartwheels. And, if those are the places we end up with, I doubt that I would spend much time there.
^^ Well I'd spend time there if not just for the Rawlings sports bar, Cabo Wabo, and visiting the great people that I will know who live there. Hopefully they'll get some good retail as well and I can frequent the BD even more. Imagine the crowd that would gather if they could see a guy named Scrutinizer down there doing cartwheels, but I guess that's not going to happen.
I think Jeff has a legitimate concern about one corporation being responsible for 7-10 restaurant/entertainment venues of any urban development - poor planning/poor idea (ever heard of the problem having all your eggs in one basket?).
There were a few things that bothered me about the latest Biz Journal article (Digging Downtown) concerning Afshin Ghazi. The Biz Journal quoted Ghazi (supposedly quoted Ghazi I should say) as saying he thought retailers would want to be at TBD instead of the BPV because they would want to be away from the congestion created by over 70 baseball games. Yeah, there is nothing retailers hate more than foot traffic of 40,000 people. First thing, we better have about 90 home games during the year (including regular and post-season) and Busch stadium is something the ULI refer to as an "activity generator" - which is something every successful urban entertainment district has as an anchor. I was also a little surprised he was quoted as saying there would be a 45-story office building at TBD. I guess that is possible, but as soft as the office market is downtown that is several real estate cycles from happening (20+ years).
Let's see the tenant list as soon as possible for both TBD and the BPV - the tenant mix is vital to insuring the longevity of either development.
There were a few things that bothered me about the latest Biz Journal article (Digging Downtown) concerning Afshin Ghazi. The Biz Journal quoted Ghazi (supposedly quoted Ghazi I should say) as saying he thought retailers would want to be at TBD instead of the BPV because they would want to be away from the congestion created by over 70 baseball games. Yeah, there is nothing retailers hate more than foot traffic of 40,000 people. First thing, we better have about 90 home games during the year (including regular and post-season) and Busch stadium is something the ULI refer to as an "activity generator" - which is something every successful urban entertainment district has as an anchor. I was also a little surprised he was quoted as saying there would be a 45-story office building at TBD. I guess that is possible, but as soft as the office market is downtown that is several real estate cycles from happening (20+ years).
Let's see the tenant list as soon as possible for both TBD and the BPV - the tenant mix is vital to insuring the longevity of either development.
In regards to the office building, remember that phase thing that has been brought up many times. Can change plans later...
And if nobody ever takes the chance at a spec office building, it will never happen. Maybe the time will be right in two years. Then again, maybe not.
And if nobody ever takes the chance at a spec office building, it will never happen. Maybe the time will be right in two years. Then again, maybe not.
Oh I don't know, I would still argue that the project has changed signifigantly, and not for the better. What was once going to be a neighborhood and district, now only seems to be an entertaiment district. and 7-10 unnamed bars and resutrants run by one company. No notable retail has been talked about and the number of new residential construction is falling. It seems like negatives to me. Hopfuly it will change and maybe later stages will take the development in a different direction, adding the now seemingly lost residential component.
Don't be discouraged by the downsizing of the residential units. Part of that is because of the projects already in place in downtown STL. The second part is that those buildings are going to command a higher purchase price, which there may not be a large enough portion of the targeted demographic that hasn't already bought in downtown. Last, but not least, interest rates are steadily rising. At the time this project was announced the average 30-year fixed rate was in the low 5%'s....now that average has risen to over 6.5% and there looks to be no slowing down of the rise in the near future.
As far as retail goes, well, until people in St. Louis step up to the plate with an entrepreneurial spirit we will have to settle for chains. Chains aren't a bad thing in this kind of district because it brings "credibility and stability" to the project. People will be less inclined to come downtown to a new Mom & Pop restaurant they've never heard of but they might come downtown for a well-known chain restaurant that is being introduced into the area.
Another thing to consider is that the success of these places will depend heavily on tourists and tourists can better associate themselves with familiar places. There are some that will venture off to the locally owned restaurants so they can having something unique to STL and then there are those that will stay in their comfort zone and venture off to the chain.
As long as these projects bring money and visibility to the STL area then we should all be happy.
As far as retail goes, well, until people in St. Louis step up to the plate with an entrepreneurial spirit we will have to settle for chains. Chains aren't a bad thing in this kind of district because it brings "credibility and stability" to the project. People will be less inclined to come downtown to a new Mom & Pop restaurant they've never heard of but they might come downtown for a well-known chain restaurant that is being introduced into the area.
Another thing to consider is that the success of these places will depend heavily on tourists and tourists can better associate themselves with familiar places. There are some that will venture off to the locally owned restaurants so they can having something unique to STL and then there are those that will stay in their comfort zone and venture off to the chain.
As long as these projects bring money and visibility to the STL area then we should all be happy.
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St.Louis UAB alumni wrote: As far as retail goes, well, until people in St. Louis step up to the plate with an entrepreneurial spirit we will have to settle for chains.
Actually, it has nothing to do with anyone "stepping up to the plate". Developers, and by extension the bankers that loan them money, want as close to a "sure thing" as they can get. So given the following two choices...
1) Billy Bob's St. Louis BBQ - This is the first restaurant opened by Bob Smith, who purports to have the best BBQ in South St. Louis and hopes he can make a go of this
or
2) O'Charley's - Location #437, for a chain that had sales of $892 million in 2005 (made up figures) and is eager to sign a 10 year lease
Which would you rent to?
St.Louis UAB alumni wrote:There are some that will venture off to the locally owned restaurants so they can having something unique to STL and then there are those that will stay in their comfort zone and venture off to the chain.
You are correct. I've never understood that behavior. Why would you go to Seattle and eat at a Fridays, which is exactly like the Fridays back home? I've been around people who will do that, and it just boggles my mind.
Actually, it has nothing to do with anyone "stepping up to the plate". Developers, and by extension the bankers that loan them money, want as close to a "sure thing" as they can get. So given the following two choices...
1) Billy Bob's St. Louis BBQ - This is the first restaurant opened by Bob Smith, who purports to have the best BBQ in South St. Louis and hopes he can make a go of this
or
2) O'Charley's - Location #437, for a chain that had sales of $892 million in 2005 (made up figures) and is eager to sign a 10 year lease
Which would you rent to?
In order to have a place in a high dollar district one would need to have a lot of capital and a good amount of liquid assets. There will be less risk involved with a chain versus a new restaurant that is locally owned. It also goes back to affordability for the local place. Can they afford the rent to have their business in a place like this? They will also need to do more marketing than the chain because the chain is a known entity and will draw customers on name alone.
A mixture of both would be nice but don't be discourage by chains. There are a lot of very successful chains out there that would make outstanding additions to STL.
If they are all chains, I hope they're at least new to St. Louis. As I said earlier, Suburbanites will not travel downtown for the same thing that can be found in Brentwood. We all know that St. Louis doesn't have enough tourists to support a disney-esque district with 10 bars & restaurants- especially when Union Station, Lacledes Landing and BPV will all be competing for the same small marketshare. If they're smart about this, they'll make the area appealing to locals as well. I'm thinking of something along the lines of House of Blues.
Currently the trio of Ghazi, Clayco, and Bar Management Group are building a project very similar to the bottle district in Charlotte called EpiCentre. That project (which includes a 53 story condo tower currently under construction) will give us an idea of what to expect here.
I did some google research and it appears that Bar Management Group has historically brought venues such as "Have a Nice Day Cafe", "Bar (insert city here)", and "Iguana cafe" (Miami) to their projects. Not terribly exciting, but at the same time, not something you'll find all over the suburbs either. At least the Iguana cafe is an attempt at a venue with a local flair. I hope they consider a blues themed venue for St. Louis. [/url]
Currently the trio of Ghazi, Clayco, and Bar Management Group are building a project very similar to the bottle district in Charlotte called EpiCentre. That project (which includes a 53 story condo tower currently under construction) will give us an idea of what to expect here.
I did some google research and it appears that Bar Management Group has historically brought venues such as "Have a Nice Day Cafe", "Bar (insert city here)", and "Iguana cafe" (Miami) to their projects. Not terribly exciting, but at the same time, not something you'll find all over the suburbs either. At least the Iguana cafe is an attempt at a venue with a local flair. I hope they consider a blues themed venue for St. Louis. [/url]
What about that St. Louisan who has opened Blues Bars in NYC? He's opened a couple, why not try to bring him home, a little.
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Speaking of blues, I'm surprised that House of Blues hasn't been mentioned for either BPV or TBD. Are they no longer expanding? HOB is a chain that I would be perfectly happy with.
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DeBaliviere wrote:Speaking of blues, I'm surprised that House of Blues hasn't been mentioned for either BPV or TBD. Are they no longer expanding? HOB is a chain that I would be perfectly happy with.
I would guess that they don't want to open another location so close to Union Station. I wold prefer a real blues bar, ala BB's Jazz Blues Soups.
Whew! A lot of new posts to catch up on here!
I'll be brief: I'm feeling more positive about this project actually getting off the ground. It sounds like Ghazi has been working hard. I tend to agree that the national chains are the most likely to have an impact and ultimately succeed in this type of setting (tourists/conventioneers/sports fans). And the hotel signing is very good news.
But I'm a bit concerned about giving one management company such a dominant presence. And I have doubts about some of their claims, such as 75% of the space being leased already. And a 45 story office tower at that location? Give me a break!
I'll be brief: I'm feeling more positive about this project actually getting off the ground. It sounds like Ghazi has been working hard. I tend to agree that the national chains are the most likely to have an impact and ultimately succeed in this type of setting (tourists/conventioneers/sports fans). And the hotel signing is very good news.
But I'm a bit concerned about giving one management company such a dominant presence. And I have doubts about some of their claims, such as 75% of the space being leased already. And a 45 story office tower at that location? Give me a break!