urbanSTL

Chalupas54 wrote: You're probably right! Hehe. Disagree COMPLETELY with your St Louis-Austin comparison. St Louis has a booming start up and tech sector.

JAL007 wrote:

Chalupas54 wrote:
AUSTIN...?!? I give the route 10 months. Austin has no touristic features, no major companies HQd there, and not a Top 30 metro. Besides being TX Capitol, I don't see ANY reason why BA would pick Austin..

And it is a very good thing you don't work in route planning for an airline. Airlines begin routes that they believe will become profitable. Long-haul routes such as this one generally take time to become profitable and represent considerable investments in facilities, aircraft, and slots. Unlike St. Louis, Austin has a growing and vibrant tech community and many start-ups. The route is being operated under a JBV with American Airlines, allowing BA to leverage AA's strong customer base in the Austin area.

Dunno maybe I haven't been paying attention, Jim Mckelvey was on CNBC:



Hopefully in time good things will come of this, but it is charitable to imply STL is a high tech powerhouse like Silicon Valley or even Cambridge (MA).

matguy70 wrote:No city can support originating traffic at levels of 500 flights a day. Only cities with connecting hubs will do that amount of traffic.

True.. BUT... a profitable hub needs to have about 60% origination / destination traffic and 40% connecting traffic, no matter the number of flights.

With the TWA hub in St. Louis, the ratio was 30% origination / destination traffic and 70% connecting traffic. That, simply, was not profitable.

Greg

What is the ratio at Charlotte? Their metro population is 2.2 million, per 2010 census.

I'm hearing rumors that TSA Pre-Check will open on Concourse A on Sunday.

Greg

matguy70 wrote:A hub exists in a city according to location, landing costs, legacy (has been established there for decades), and infrastructure of the airport. Period.

Charlotte, Memphis (now Defunct), Pittsburgh (now defunct), STL (TWA defunct), Salt Lake City, Denver, and Minneapolis DO NOT in anyway have 60% originating traffic. All smaller sized cities (and MSP/ Denver on same par) of that of nearly 3 million in STL.

Even in ATL - the busiest airport in the world ... 70.1% of passengers are connecting - only 29.9% are originating/ destination passengers from ATL airport.

Completely true. Denver, which is SMALLER than St Louis, relies on connections, and have an incredibly low originating passenger%. Minneapolis, having flown through several times, is actually a moderate originating city, as the Twin Cities are INCREDIBLY isolated. 8+hours to the nearest major city, that being Milwaukee or Des Moines. Cincinnati has a 7.6% origination. Yet, (for now) they are a Delta hub. Cincy is a dead city. With Columbus courting P&G heavily, and exec's looking at sites in Dublin and meeting with Mayor Coleman, I don't see why Delta is STILL THERE. Yes they have a lease, but the hub is NOT PROFITABLE. Passenger numbers are plummeting, and operations are as well.

KMOV - St. Louis pushing for international flights to and from Lambert

Lambert’s airport director, Rhonda Hamm Niebruegge says roughly 300 people start their day in St Louis and end their day in Europe. Another 80 travel to India, Asia, Africa and beyond.

She says Austin’s numbers are similar,- but they have the opportunity to draw passengers from nearby San Antonio - which gives them a significant boost over St. Louis.

http://www.kmov.com/news/editors-pick/S ... 80901.html

Good. When I wen to London in July, I saw a lot the of same people from my STL flight to Chicago also on the flight to London.

quincunx wrote:KMOV - St. Louis pushing for international flights to and from Lambert

Lambert’s airport director, Rhonda Hamm Niebruegge says roughly 300 people start their day in St Louis and end their day in Europe. Another 80 travel to India, Asia, Africa and beyond.

She says Austin’s numbers are similar,- but they have the opportunity to draw passengers from nearby San Antonio - which gives them a significant boost over St. Louis.

http://www.kmov.com/news/editors-pick/S ... 80901.html

Rhonda has done so much for this Airport. She has had to deal with the airport being abandoned by American, a tornado shredding a concourse, and so much more. Glad to see this.

Just got back from London and interesting is the United flight to Chicago both ways a large percentage of the people on board were flying internationally, that and the flights were sold out which makes me wonder if some airlines need to add frequency or larger planes to their hubs here.

Wouldn't one thing that could help on international flights is if they can line up some cargo contracts with it to fill the underbelly of the planes?

And yes with the BA Austin flights they did consider San Antionio numbers into that since its just over an hour away driving. Speaking of Austin wouldn't that be a domestic destination that has a good chance of Southwest starting at some point? One point in time that I see it is October of 2014 when the Wright Amendment goes away and Southwest can fly anywhere in the lower 48 from Dallas Love Field. One provision of that is they are limited to 16 gates there so they will have to cut frequency to cities that fly there like both Austin and St. Louis. (how much from St. Louis i'm not sure since many use that route to go elsewhere from St. Louis, but it also has a lot of O&D traffic) But how much of the St. Louis to Austin traffic connects at Love Field? Since maybe they can free places there by having 1-2 a day flights between St. Louis and Austin.

imperialmog wrote:One point in time that I see it is October of 2014 when the Wright Amendment goes away and Southwest can fly anywhere in the lower 48 from Dallas Love Field. One provision of that is they are limited to 16 gates there so they will have to cut frequency to cities that fly there like both Austin and St. Louis.

STL will definitely lose a number of frequencies to Love Field when the Wright Amendment goes away. The reason being that STL is being used as a stop within the Wright Amendment boundaries for destinations like MDW, PHL, LGA, DCA, BOS and BWI which they cannot serve non-stop from DAL.

When Southwest can fly to those destinations non-stop from STL, you'll see a cut in frequency from 9 to, most likely 4-6.

Greg

Actually WN/SWA has been quietly pulling frequencies and ending certain markets from STL. I know many here seem to be convinced STL is of great importance to WN, but the fact is they have bigger fish to fry with international expansion at BWI, HOU, and MDW and starting next year DAL. Some of the reductions are only seasonal adjustments and are nothing to fret about but they are ending BHM, SDF, SEA and reducing frequencies to MCI, MSP, and OKC.

And for all you hAAters check this out:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL1 ... /KDFW/KSTL

AA operated a 767-300, N380AN to STL yesterday to replace the normal 757-200 due to mechanical. And for a quick anecdote, fleet service for AA at Lambert DOES still have container loading equipment and widebodies do show up occasionally.

matguy70 wrote:I noticed that Birmingham nonstop is dropping after December and is being replaced with nonstop to ATL on Southwest instead. Birmingham isn't too happy about this at all since SWA just dropped New Orleans and Jacksonville from BHM too.

Seattle is seasonal for SWA - however, Alaska is year round for Seattle nonstop from STL.

Sorry to hear about the Louisville flight drop - but it is a very low numbers flight.

As for SWA International rev up... Aitran will open up Mexico and the Caribbean for SWA. From STL you can fly to most of those places on other carries - except Mexico City, Bermuda and San Juan. All other AirTran destinations out of the border are served.

As I mentioned some of the changes are seasonal adjustments, but the fact is WN has retreated from some markets.

SEA is a highly seasonal market from STL and always has been. AS has been very well received in this market and all publicly available data suggests the flights are successful. I had hoped they would add another frequency, if even seasonal but they seek to be content with the current capacity.

The ATL service is not new, it is simply being transitioned to WN service from FL.

I wouldn't hold my breath for international/SJU service from WN either.

JAL007 wrote:Actually WN/SWA has been quietly pulling frequencies and ending certain markets from STL. I know many here seem to be convinced STL is of great importance to WN, but the fact is they have bigger fish to fry with international expansion at BWI, HOU, and MDW and starting next year DAL. Some of the reductions are only seasonal adjustments and are nothing to fret about but they are ending BHM, SDF, SEA and reducing frequencies to MCI, MSP, and OKC.

And for all you hAAters check this out:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL1 ... /KDFW/KSTL

AA operated a 767-300, N380AN to STL yesterday to replace the normal 757-200 due to mechanical. And for a quick anecdote, fleet service for AA at Lambert DOES still have container loading equipment and widebodies do show up occasionally.

After researching all 'ending' routes, all appear to be false. I have found NO evidence those routes are being cut, or made seasonal. Also, just because an American 767 flew to St Louis doesn't mean anything. They still don't care about St Louis, and Southwest is still a much more sound company than American. You seem incredibly biased against St Louis and Southwest, typical to someone who loves American. Actually, you do realize STL is SWA's 11th busiest airport? Southwest cut Little Rock due to an additional route to Midway. Southwest since has added another daily to Boston, New York, Reagan, Midway, and Denver. St Louis is to Southwest as Salt Lake CIty is to Delta. Not the main hub, but yet a major connection hub. Also "OCCASIONALLY SHOW UP" = Once every 5 years. Your inference that Southwest is cutting back in St Louis is somewhat laughable, as Southwest's STL Passenger numbers continue to skyrocket, and as Southwest recently added another jet bridge to E concourse. I think you are just in denial that your lowly American is no longer #1. Just being honest. http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/blog ... mbert.html

FYI - Big wigs from SWA will be in town Thursday meeting with regional leaders.

^ Couldn't add a tidbit more Moorlander? Big wigs just don't show up to say hi unless they are looking for something or have an idea they want to present.

Chalupas54 wrote:
After researching all 'ending' routes, all appear to be false. I have found NO evidence those routes are being cut, or made seasonal. Also, just because an American 767 flew to St Louis doesn't mean anything. They still don't care about St Louis, and Southwest is still a much more sound company than American. You seem incredibly biased against St Louis and Southwest, typical to someone who loves American. Actually, you do realize STL is SWA's 11th busiest airport? Southwest cut Little Rock due to an additional route to Midway. Southwest since has added another daily to Boston, New York, Reagan, Midway, and Denver. St Louis is to Southwest as Salt Lake CIty is to Delta. Not the main hub, but yet a major connection hub. Also "OCCASIONALLY SHOW UP" = Once every 5 years. Your inference that Southwest is cutting back in St Louis is somewhat laughable, as Southwest's STL Passenger numbers continue to skyrocket, and as Southwest recently added another jet bridge to E concourse. I think you are just in denial that your lowly American is no longer #1. Just being honest. http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/blog ... mbert.html

Please reread what I wrote, you misinterpret my post an then go onto suggest I am either wrong or lied. All the changes are reflected in any OAG timetable, or better yet check on southwest.com. Frequency reductions are generally in the category of seasonal adjustments is the suspension of SEA. But once again the ATL service is simply transitioning the FL service to WN metal as part of the slow integration and phase out of the AirTran brand.

If you believe WN at STL is comparable to DL at SLC, I'm not sure what to tell you. This demonstrates a very weak understanding of the industry and differen strategies employed by the two carriers. DL and DL connection currently operate 262 peak day departures to 82 destinations, including Paris from SLC. WN operates 95 peak day departures to 24 cities.

STL is well served by AA, it is certainly in an enviable position among the non-hub markets throughout the system. All the hubs are well served (sans JFK), new Admirals Club recently opened, and a small flight attendant base supports the operation. STL just doesn't bring much to the table for AA, more lucrative opportunities exist in DFW, MIA, etc.

moorlander wrote:FYI - Big wigs from SWA will be in town Thursday meeting with regional leaders.

This could be a few things actually since they are at an interesting crossroads both within the company and at Lambert. It could be that they are looking at international facilities at the airport for possible Mexico/Carribean service, it could also be needing to start reopening Councourse D for expansion, or it could be that due to their size there they might want to look at getting some space for a pilot base/aircraft facilities.

It could also be looking into certain possible route expansion within the lower 48, which the biggest gap with Southwest nonstop from St. Louis is the Bay Area (that has rather limited non-stop in general from here). Another possibility is a route to Des Moines since officials in Iowa and Monsanto would like that to exist, but Southwest has been cutting short routes like that nationally for the last couple of years. (why routes to Little Rock and Louisville have or will be axed)

moorlander wrote:FYI - Big wigs from SWA will be in town Thursday meeting with regional leaders.

The meeting is 1.5 hrs long and is part of the RCGA meetings. Bond, Nixon, Rhonda H.N. Slay and the three top dogs at SWA. So let the speculation begin...

^ Thanks for the reply and the details of who on the political side.

My wish list, speculation. SWA wants Lambert to tear down old Concourse D & E so some new international route friendly gates and customs area that flows better wtiht the existing baggage claim area. Makes room for additional short term parking and future Consolidated Car Rental Facility between Terminal 1 & 2.