I'm glad we're all fired up about this.
Gone Corporate, you did it again!
I'm covered in goose bumps!!!!
I'm covered in goose bumps!!!!
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GC definitely knows how to sell this thing. And I wouldn't even call his visions pie-in-the-sky. If done correctly, his vision is reality.
Now, the question is, can this be executed properly. I have real questions abou that. I am completely unenthralled by those leading this, except Hamm-Nuebregge, I think she's a rising star.
Now, the question is, can this be executed properly. I have real questions abou that. I am completely unenthralled by those leading this, except Hamm-Nuebregge, I think she's a rising star.
An additional tidbit in all this, Downtown's competitiveness going forward and the thus the region as whole will be more about new construction and infill. I would argue that the next leap forward won't happen until new Class A office space is built no matter how big the HTC pot is.
In other words, Kellwood would be a good fit for the revised Skyhouse proposal but its going to take new companies, new business to fill BPV's footprint or even coming close to filling McKee's 22nd street vision for west downtown (think 40 story bookmark of an office buildign).
In other words, Kellwood would be a good fit for the revised Skyhouse proposal but its going to take new companies, new business to fill BPV's footprint or even coming close to filling McKee's 22nd street vision for west downtown (think 40 story bookmark of an office buildign).
I am not sure I agree 100%. I mean making that highly connective transportation corridor could ignite demand which would/could ultimately cause the development of Class A and other infill. Granted it would only be part of the equation.dredger wrote:An additional tidbit in all this, Downtown's competitiveness going forward and the thus the region as whole will be more about new construction and infill. I would argue that the next leap forward won't happen until new Class A office space is built no matter how big the HTC pot is.
In other words, Kellwood would be a good fit for the revised Skyhouse proposal but its going to take new companies, new business to fill BPV's footprint or even coming close to filling McKee's 22nd street vision for west downtown (think 40 story bookmark of an office buildign).
As a whole I think GC has some good ideas and ones that we could further develop and analyze. I would suggest nextSTL, as a group, starts analyzing the potential of this idea in depth, mapping out supporting argumentation.
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The issue is the new inclusion of small projects in the $75M cap. Pulling those out successfully addresses predictable access for smaller developers and homeowners while leaving enough to complete some big projects.
Exactly...Anything that can draw attention generally to this initiative in words and numbers that make sense to the potential businesses that could profit from a St. Louis Aerotropolis is a real way to help...In the end, the vast, vast majority of investment and risk is going to come from private sector ventures...The state can "set the table" with tax policy and "invite guests to the party" through outreach but it will take private bankers, industry leaders and interested business groups to make all of the parts come together...zun1026 wrote:As a whole I think GC has some good ideas and ones that we could further develop and analyze. I would suggest nextSTL, as a group, starts analyzing the potential of this idea in depth, mapping out supporting argumentation.
I think the economic potenital of an aerotropolis in general combined with the many assets of the St. Louis region and tremendous space for modern and expansive growth makes these tax credits (investments) something that must be pursued...And close counts here...We don't have become Chicago to succeed...
Hopefully Mr. Logan and the P-D are trying to ensure that every voice in the community is being heard on the issue...Colby wrote:RobbyD wrote:Maybe I missed something, but the most recent PD article didn't seem to do more than lay out the positions of those arguing for more scrutiny of the aerotropolis proposal.
You’re right; he doesn’t seem to do much more than lay out the positions of the bills opponents. I wish he would engage in a more probing analysis of the bill
I don’t like how the author begins the article by characterizing the bill as a tax “break” that will require spending. This seems to imply that it will somehow diminish the state’s tax revenue stream by providing corporations with a break from taxes they currently pay. In reality, companies will only receive tax credits to the extent that they contribute to the hub project, and they must clearly demonstrate such contributions in order to qualify for the tax credit. As such, if the project fails and the companies aren’t able to contribute to the hub, then they won’t receive these tax credits. Although the author makes quick reference to this crucial fact (kind of), he buried it in the middle of the article. Rubs me the wrong way.
Furthermore, I don’t really like the whole guilt by association premise. Rather than analyzing the bill like Mr. Degraaf, he devoted 1/3 of the article to talking about Paul Mckee, who isn’t exactly the most popular man in St. Louis. While it might be worth mentioning that he has been involved since the beginning, I think he unduly emphasized Mr. Mckee’s participation in the negotiations. Highlighting his role only serves to unfairly tarnish the initiative.
I can’t remember the last time I felt so passionately about a local issue, which is why I am so sensitive to the way in which the bill has been framed in local publications. Although it’s unfortunate that Post hasn’t been very receptive to the bill, I’m sure the author also cares deeply about the future of the St. Louis region and is not writing such pieces in attempt to garner publicity or push an agenda (other than helping stl). We just have such a tremendous opportunity here; we’re talking about potentially being the gateway to what will be the largest economy in the entire world. Furthermore, I imagine that such connections with China will serve to enrich St. Louis’ culture. This just seems like a no brainer.
I would have to agree with your observations, though, on how this particular article was incorrectly framed...
@Gone...Are you following Jeff City enough to know if we are correctly positioning HTC against Aerotropolis credits? I'm confused as to why we are even discussing an either/or choice here other than the general reality of a political climate swirling against "tax breaks for the rich"...
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My personal favorite part...
YES! Not only does this have the support of hard-core Fiscal Conservatives, who do see it as a practical & pragmatic business venture, but Out-Staters at that.
FARKING JOPLIN! WEST OF SPRINGFIELD!
For those unfamiliar: Greater Joplin is so out-state, it's where Anthony Bourdain's No Reservations just filmed their Ozarks episode, in celebration of Winter's Bone author Daniel Woodrell.
OZARK COUNTRY WANTS TO DO BUSINESS WITH CHINA!
Now, so long as a handful of infighting politicians (especially those in the StL area) don't bleed this out over personal gain & posturing, this should win. Knock wood.
"I don't know if Aerotropolis is going to work, but it's worth a try,” said Sen. Ron Richard, R-Joplin. “Nothing ventured, nothing gained. We’ve got to get in the game, and that means not losing any more Congressional seats that we’ve been fighting about. That means not losing any more of our kids to other states.”
YES! Not only does this have the support of hard-core Fiscal Conservatives, who do see it as a practical & pragmatic business venture, but Out-Staters at that.
FARKING JOPLIN! WEST OF SPRINGFIELD!
For those unfamiliar: Greater Joplin is so out-state, it's where Anthony Bourdain's No Reservations just filmed their Ozarks episode, in celebration of Winter's Bone author Daniel Woodrell.
OZARK COUNTRY WANTS TO DO BUSINESS WITH CHINA!
Now, so long as a handful of infighting politicians (especially those in the StL area) don't bleed this out over personal gain & posturing, this should win. Knock wood.
^I'll be hitting Spaghetti Red's on the way to visit my brother in OKC because of that episode. The duck blind looked pretty kickass, as well.
Totally off topic. The Ozarks have some of the best smallmouth bass and trout fisheries in the whole U.S. Its not all about meth labs and college float trips.
Totally off topic. The Ozarks have some of the best smallmouth bass and trout fisheries in the whole U.S. Its not all about meth labs and college float trips.
Of course, the Devil will be in the details. I'm I correct in stating that State Senate action last night report in the article came across as a compromise on Tax Credit reform? I'm I correct in that statement? Second, not to be too political, I wonder where this will go with the State House as Gov has made his desire for tax credit known.Colby wrote:Boom:
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/govt ... f6878.html
My other thoughts, not related directly to the air cargo hub but related to any tax credit deals. Will a compromise include a Data Center tax credit? Will a compromise put an end to bunching tax credits together - such as Brownfield with HTC to develop a specific site?
Another example of business going global (in this case rural Missouri) is the new Chinese Mamtek Sweetener plant under construction in Moberly, MO that will open with 150 and grow to 600 jobs.gone corporate wrote:My personal favorite part...
"I don't know if Aerotropolis is going to work, but it's worth a try,” said Sen. Ron Richard, R-Joplin. “Nothing ventured, nothing gained. We’ve got to get in the game, and that means not losing any more Congressional seats that we’ve been fighting about. That means not losing any more of our kids to other states.”
YES! Not only does this have the support of hard-core Fiscal Conservatives, who do see it as a practical & pragmatic business venture, but Out-Staters at that.
FARKING JOPLIN! WEST OF SPRINGFIELD!
For those unfamiliar: Greater Joplin is so out-state, it's where Anthony Bourdain's No Reservations just filmed their Ozarks episode, in celebration of Winter's Bone author Daniel Woodrell.
OZARK COUNTRY WANTS TO DO BUSINESS WITH CHINA!
Now, so long as a handful of infighting politicians (especially those in the StL area) don't bleed this out over personal gain & posturing, this should win. Knock wood.
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Chicago's airports are locked in and overhauls there are enormously expensive. The multi-billion-dollar O'Hare redevelopment plan came with the price of decades of political moves. Lincoln might prove an exception, but at the moment, O'Hare can stand to lose a bit. Chicago is also locked down by the airlines that hub there and refuse to let other area airports take up the slack.ttricamo wrote:I'm sure this has been discussed before, and I can't believe there isn't more coverage of the topic in the local news, but what about the 800lb Gorilla in the room? How do we stack up against the Windy City? Is it an all or nothing deal? Is it possible St. Louis and Chi city get pieces of the business?
I really can't find much on this topic.
The Detroit Aerotropolis plan asked why all their car parts were flying to O'Hare and then hopping a truck to Detroit. It takes longer and its more expensive. So they want to siphon off the share of the hub's traffic that makes more sense in Detroit. Car parts made in China should fly to Detroit, not Chicago, and in the end that'll probably make the most sense if that's where the assembly plants are.
Because St. Louis is not currently dominated by domestic airlines, it gives the three national airlines of China a chance to be completely in charge, which is exactly what they like and what they've been doing in Africa and the MiddleEast.
Because Missouri beef and Arkansas rice are a lot closer to St. Louis than Chicago, our agricultural focus is not expressly a threat to O'Hare. Thus far we've framed this discussion almost entirely around food and the cool chain. Memphis and Louisville move a lot of cargo, but frozen food isn't their focus. If we're going for a niche, then we can certainly separate ourselves from other hubs. The China Hub would be totally different from other hubs by virtue of who is running the show and what they are moving. Perishables need to move fast, and we grow a lot of perishables (curious to see when Ralcorp and other food processers hop into the fray).
I believe the PD Post article was updated, specifically notes one of the tax credit compromises put forth. Not surprising, dropping HTC to $75 million and limiting residential to $50,000 per property and eliminating stacking of HTC with Low Income Housing tax credit.
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... e96e3.html
To reach the $1.5 billion in savings over 15 years, the bill would implement several changes to the state's overall tax credit program suggested by the Tax Credit Review Commission that was empaneled last year. The legislation would reduce the size of annual awards through the historic preservation tax credit program to $75 million from $140 million. It would also limit the tax credits to $50,000 per project for renovation of residential property and prohibit stacking historic preservation credits with low-income housing credits.
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... e96e3.html
To reach the $1.5 billion in savings over 15 years, the bill would implement several changes to the state's overall tax credit program suggested by the Tax Credit Review Commission that was empaneled last year. The legislation would reduce the size of annual awards through the historic preservation tax credit program to $75 million from $140 million. It would also limit the tax credits to $50,000 per project for renovation of residential property and prohibit stacking historic preservation credits with low-income housing credits.
^ One change in the amended bill that is not correctly reflected in the P-D article is that freight forwarders now get $0.30 (was=$0.25) per kilogram of goods or $0.35 (was=$0.30) for perishables flown outbound. This number is now also indexed, depending on the cost of fuel for over the road transportation.
The total bill is now $360MM (was=$480MM). The $120MM incentive over interest on construction loans is gone.
Further: no state income or franchise tax exemptions. Instead: City earnings tax exemption.
Owners of eligible warehouses now get tax credits up to 30% (was=25%) over the total construction cost over 5-8 years.
All in all, the changes seem reasonable. The total cost of the bill went down without hurting the effort too much. The focus is more on making sure we get qualifying (long-term) operations for our money and that's what it's all about.
The total bill is now $360MM (was=$480MM). The $120MM incentive over interest on construction loans is gone.
Further: no state income or franchise tax exemptions. Instead: City earnings tax exemption.
Owners of eligible warehouses now get tax credits up to 30% (was=25%) over the total construction cost over 5-8 years.
All in all, the changes seem reasonable. The total cost of the bill went down without hurting the effort too much. The focus is more on making sure we get qualifying (long-term) operations for our money and that's what it's all about.
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The historic tax credits getting cut sucks, but if it means getting the tax credits that are needed for the cargo hub then I'm okay with it. I agree with the Senator from Joplin that it is a gamble, but it's one that needs to be taken. STL and Missouri need to work together. STL may have the cargo hub (hopefully), but Missouri and the surrounding states will produce the cargo to be shipped. As someone else said, in general we can't compete with Chicago, but in this case we don't have to. Chicago doesn't seem to be a player in this.
stlcardsblues1989 wrote:The historic tax credits getting cut sucks, but if it means getting the tax credits that are needed for the cargo hub then I'm okay with it. I agree with the Senator from Joplin that it is a gamble, but it's one that needs to be taken. STL and Missouri need to work together. STL may have the cargo hub (hopefully), but Missouri and the surrounding states will produce the cargo to be shipped. As someone else said, in general we can't compete with Chicago, but in this case we don't have to. Chicago doesn't seem to be a player in this.
I agree that St. Louis has to be its own city. We can't just try to replicate what other cities do if it does not fit with our way of life. St. Louis thrived as an industrial city and the cargo hub could help us get back to those roots.
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^we're mostly talking about moving beef. Chicago is the traditional industrial slaughterhouse. Kansas City is the traditional stockyard.
Still, you're right. All arguments are won by the side that sets the definitions. We can't be a better Portland than Portland or a better Chicago than Chicago, but we can certainly be a much better St. Louis than we were a decade or two back.
Still, you're right. All arguments are won by the side that sets the definitions. We can't be a better Portland than Portland or a better Chicago than Chicago, but we can certainly be a much better St. Louis than we were a decade or two back.
I one hundred percent agree there. Cheers to seeing that happen.DaronDierkes wrote:^we're mostly talking about moving beef. Chicago is the traditional industrial slaughterhouse. Kansas City is the traditional stockyard.
Still, you're right. All arguments are won by the side that sets the definitions. We can't be a better Portland than Portland or a better Chicago than Chicago, but we can certainly be a much better St. Louis than we were a decade or two back.
New article about another aspect of the China Hub Initiative:
St. Louis attorney at helm of Chinese air cargo deal
St. Louis Post Dispatch - Tim Logan
To a remarkable degree, one of the biggest economic development projects in the St. Louis region hinges on one man: Steve Stone.
Through a mix of professional and personal connections, along with a healthy dose of political savvy, the veteran Clayton real estate lawyer sits at the center of the region's three-year bid to turn Lambert-St. Louis International Airport into a hub for Chinese air cargo.
A partner in the firm Stone, Leyton and Gershman, he has long held close ties to Paul McKee, who controls about 700 acres around Lambert. Several years ago, they hatched the plan to bring the Chinese to St. Louis.
MORE: http://goo.gl/4ab5p
St. Louis attorney at helm of Chinese air cargo deal
St. Louis Post Dispatch - Tim Logan
To a remarkable degree, one of the biggest economic development projects in the St. Louis region hinges on one man: Steve Stone.
Through a mix of professional and personal connections, along with a healthy dose of political savvy, the veteran Clayton real estate lawyer sits at the center of the region's three-year bid to turn Lambert-St. Louis International Airport into a hub for Chinese air cargo.
A partner in the firm Stone, Leyton and Gershman, he has long held close ties to Paul McKee, who controls about 700 acres around Lambert. Several years ago, they hatched the plan to bring the Chinese to St. Louis.
MORE: http://goo.gl/4ab5p
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Great story today from the Saint Louis Beacon.
Quick Takeaway:
- Tax credits for Aerotropolis come at the cost of reducing tax credits for (1) low income elderly renters, (2) small business owners who pay their own health insurance, and (3) historic tax credits, reducing the cap from $140M to $75M.
- Broad support in the Senate, after the House votes in favor of the bill. This support is fully bipartisan and includes considerable support from both urban and rural Missouri
- Many of the tax cuts for the Aerotropolis bill were anticipated already as part of the Governor's goals of reducing total tax credit allocations for the impending fiscal year
- Senator Eric Schmitt, Glendale, writer of the bill: "At the end of the day, it's about seizing an opportunity that's right in front of us to be an international cargo hub and to have the infrastructure necessary for it to be sustainable long-term."
- Senator Jason Crowell, Cape Girardeau, a tax credit critic who's supporting Aerotropolis: "We're going to reallocate existing resources that also result in a net savings to the taxpayers because in this new paradigm of the economy and this new paradigm of state government and this paradigm of personal budgets, you have to do more with less."
- Dan Mehan, President, MO Chamber of Commerce: "All of the pieces that are coming together this year have the potential to bring an entirely new industry into our state and create jobs for generations to come."
- Mike Jones, Chairman, Midwest China Hub Commission: "The legislature has shown support since Day One. It sends a message to the Chinese that we understand on a state level what we need to do."
Source: http://www.stlbeacon.org/issues-politic ... -china-hub
Seeing as how strong this looks to be in Saint Louis and Missouri, I wonder if we'll see Illinois investing in Mid America Airport in Mascoutah to also make that airport more suitable for, and attractive to, the logistics industry.
Whether they do or do not, I'm pragmatically optomistic in this coming through for MO and StL...
Quick Takeaway:
- Tax credits for Aerotropolis come at the cost of reducing tax credits for (1) low income elderly renters, (2) small business owners who pay their own health insurance, and (3) historic tax credits, reducing the cap from $140M to $75M.
- Broad support in the Senate, after the House votes in favor of the bill. This support is fully bipartisan and includes considerable support from both urban and rural Missouri
- Many of the tax cuts for the Aerotropolis bill were anticipated already as part of the Governor's goals of reducing total tax credit allocations for the impending fiscal year
- Senator Eric Schmitt, Glendale, writer of the bill: "At the end of the day, it's about seizing an opportunity that's right in front of us to be an international cargo hub and to have the infrastructure necessary for it to be sustainable long-term."
- Senator Jason Crowell, Cape Girardeau, a tax credit critic who's supporting Aerotropolis: "We're going to reallocate existing resources that also result in a net savings to the taxpayers because in this new paradigm of the economy and this new paradigm of state government and this paradigm of personal budgets, you have to do more with less."
- Dan Mehan, President, MO Chamber of Commerce: "All of the pieces that are coming together this year have the potential to bring an entirely new industry into our state and create jobs for generations to come."
- Mike Jones, Chairman, Midwest China Hub Commission: "The legislature has shown support since Day One. It sends a message to the Chinese that we understand on a state level what we need to do."
Source: http://www.stlbeacon.org/issues-politic ... -china-hub
Seeing as how strong this looks to be in Saint Louis and Missouri, I wonder if we'll see Illinois investing in Mid America Airport in Mascoutah to also make that airport more suitable for, and attractive to, the logistics industry.
Whether they do or do not, I'm pragmatically optomistic in this coming through for MO and StL...
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^ I wonder if IL has any interest in supporting the downtown STL airport (in IL) as a hub for private jets - not sure the relationship with this effort is really there or not.