Very impressive plan. A bit more progressive than what we're used to seeing around here. Might shake some things up a bit. I hope the sculpture doesn't look quite as turd-like in real life, though.
Not bad looking. The torso sculpture, while clichéd, isn't horrible. I would have preferred some of those Chihuly glass sculptures, like those on display at the Botanical gardens, in this space with its mix of light and water. Oh well.
Deb is right though, this is what Kiener Plaza should aspire to be, though it is important to remember that within the next 5 years downtown will have the OPO, the Ballpark Village park and whatever improvements they make to Kiener Plaza. Those are going to be 3 pretty similar park spaces (though if all done right and good model for City leaders to follow when thinking about urban park space in the future).
One question though, how many plazas with video boards does downtown need? Better here I say than Kiener.
Deb is right though, this is what Kiener Plaza should aspire to be, though it is important to remember that within the next 5 years downtown will have the OPO, the Ballpark Village park and whatever improvements they make to Kiener Plaza. Those are going to be 3 pretty similar park spaces (though if all done right and good model for City leaders to follow when thinking about urban park space in the future).
One question though, how many plazas with video boards does downtown need? Better here I say than Kiener.
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they should get these guys to spruce up the little park across from the eagle ton building
So where's the tower? The very last rendering makes it look as if the plaza will take up the whole block.
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^ good point. Do we have a site plan for the Roberts Plaza? Will it span all the way south to locust?
The plaza does go all the way along Locust.
The designs look fairly good to me at this time. We'll see how many of the digital people will show up, but it looks like it could be a useful space.
The designs look fairly good to me at this time. We'll see how many of the digital people will show up, but it looks like it could be a useful space.
The Roberts Tower is shown in those plans/renderings, but they show the old design of the tower. It is the grey rectangle directly above the patio umbrellas in the last image. The south face of the Tower is roughly even with the south face of the Orpheum. Since most of the base of the building abuts the Mayfair, the tower is only one unit wide, thus a very skinny profile.
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Social Life of Small Urban Spaces
How does this plaza compare to what this book demonstrates about the social life of small urban spaces?
"People will sit where there are places to sit"
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People like to people watch and sit where the action is like overlooking the street along the perimeter of the plaza:
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There should be little to no elevation change to invite people into the plaza.
The sounds and sight of water is attracting, especially waterfalls.
This plaza is missing a cafe and movable chairs.
How does this plaza compare to what this book demonstrates about the social life of small urban spaces?
"People will sit where there are places to sit"
People like to people watch and sit where the action is like overlooking the street along the perimeter of the plaza:
There should be little to no elevation change to invite people into the plaza.
The sounds and sight of water is attracting, especially waterfalls.
This plaza is missing a cafe and movable chairs.
SMSPlanstu wrote:This plaza is missing a cafe and movable chairs.
I believe there is to be a restaurant of some sort on the ground floor of the Roberts Tower, where the patio umbrellas are.
OK, my bad. I checked some photos of the area. For some reason, I thought that the Orpheum and the Mayfair formed a more or less unbroken wall on their south sides. I consequently thought that the tower was going on the eastern half of the parking lot, while the plaza would take up the rest. I didn't realize how thin the Roberts tower would be.
One of the things I like about this design, in addition to the water feature, is that it is very brightly lit. From the 7th and 8th images, the west side of the plaza appears to have almost the equivalent of stage lighting. This draws people in at night, plus gives people walking on adjacent blocks the sense that 'something exciting is around the corner/over there', not to mention that it deters crime and repels the homeless. The Gateway Mall could benefit tremendously from some updated lighting.
One thing though, the eastern half of P.O. Plaza, as shown in the renderings above, could be very dark and intimidating at night in comparison (and a magnet for the homeless), especially as the trees get bigger. I hope they provide a lot of at-grade lighting on that side of the plaza.
One thing though, the eastern half of P.O. Plaza, as shown in the renderings above, could be very dark and intimidating at night in comparison (and a magnet for the homeless), especially as the trees get bigger. I hope they provide a lot of at-grade lighting on that side of the plaza.
love the canopy of trees. Wonder how long until they're the size shown in the renderings?
I love the canopy of trees throughout the entire gateway mall that few people take advantage of. Kiener Plaza, the arch grounds, and the Miles fountain get a good amount of activity but not much elsewhere, imho. I'd rather see NO "public plaza" in front of the Roberts building, but I guess a SMALL one wouldn't hurt. I hate to sound so negative about this, but the whole "greenspace" concept is so 1960's thinking.
urban_dilettante wrote:break that space up with a metro-link station or a casino or some paddle-boats or something.
So if the developer is Downtown Now does this mean that it will be privately owned/operated?
JCity wrote:I hate to sound so negative about this, but the whole "greenspace" concept is so 1960's thinking.
Failed thinking. We already have plenty of green space downtown. This is a complete waste. Where buildings once stood we shall plant grass. Welcome to Downtown St. Louis, the heart of the Region!
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Doug wrote:JCity wrote:I hate to sound so negative about this, but the whole "greenspace" concept is so 1960's thinking.
Failed thinking. We already have plenty of green space downtown. This is a complete waste. Where buildings once stood we shall plant grass. Welcome to Downtown St. Louis, the heart of the Region!
I didn't see any plans for grass to be planted here. In the OPO district this will be a very nice addition and add a little relief for business people and residents to enjoy. I also imagine that the students at Webster University will congregate here as well. As a future resident of the Syndicate I love that this little urban park will be right out by back door. As long as it's done right and maintained daily this will be a shining star at this end of Locust.
So why can't people congregate on the sidewalks? Maybe at a cafe on a sidewalk? Why does it have to be a plaza! It's not like there is a huge congestion of pedestrian traffic thus the sidewalks are not an option?
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My favorite "plaza" is the 800 block of Olive. IMHO, urban rooms will always make the best urban plazas.
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^ nice to hear from a soon to be resident of such proximity. I think it looks real clean as far as plazas go. (The potential has always been there) The OPO square is really starting to shape up, and in 3 years we'll have:
-the Alexa
-the plaza
-Roberts Tower
-and most importantly .... The Arcade
all will be finished withing the next 3yrs or so... Imagine the impact all those reisidents will have. Add in the Syndicate, PB, Board of education, and the much rumored Schnucks and you have one hell of a bustling square. This will be the prime urban sqaure in the midwest bar Non. (chicago excluded)
Aside- Can we get over the Woe is me the century is gone, I hate this urban plaza, I hate this garage mahal stuff.... It's time to get over already and time to get excited about what's taking shape. It's really coming along.
-the Alexa
-the plaza
-Roberts Tower
-and most importantly .... The Arcade
all will be finished withing the next 3yrs or so... Imagine the impact all those reisidents will have. Add in the Syndicate, PB, Board of education, and the much rumored Schnucks and you have one hell of a bustling square. This will be the prime urban sqaure in the midwest bar Non. (chicago excluded)
Aside- Can we get over the Woe is me the century is gone, I hate this urban plaza, I hate this garage mahal stuff.... It's time to get over already and time to get excited about what's taking shape. It's really coming along.
Get excited? It is hard to get excited since the Ambassador site already has an urban plaza, while the only office building in the USA completely clad in marble is gone for a lifeless parking garage which pathetically tries to mimic something historical. Nice granite base. Not!
The reason these horrible mistakes occur is because people simply "get over it" and stop complaining "for the greater good of progress."
What this means is that the administration knows that people will stop caring after the building is gone. Thus what is the utility of including them politically? Why should we consider their arguments when they have little political power or even the fortitude to obtain power?
Progress at what cost? How much better could this district have been with the Century and Ambassador? How about the Victoria?
The reason these horrible mistakes occur is because people simply "get over it" and stop complaining "for the greater good of progress."
What this means is that the administration knows that people will stop caring after the building is gone. Thus what is the utility of including them politically? Why should we consider their arguments when they have little political power or even the fortitude to obtain power?
Progress at what cost? How much better could this district have been with the Century and Ambassador? How about the Victoria?
bpe235 wrote:It's time to get over already and time to get excited about what's taking shape. It's really coming along.
I hear you. Of course, no one is happy about the Century. And I am not sure we needed a new plaza. But all this new stuff is coming on line around the OPO. It is going to be an amazing neighborhood right on top of an underground Metrolink station. A beautiful new neighborhood is forming right before our eyes. Indeed, this will be one of the finest neighborhoods in the Midwest. Can't we allow ourselves to enjoy it?
It is hard to get excited since the Ambassador site already has an urban plaza
More of a driveway. If we get what's in the renderings, this would be an actual plaza, unlike the many open areas we have that have failed.
The reason these horrible mistakes occur is because people simply "get over it" and stop complaining "for the greater good of progress."
Doug, believe it or not, I do agree with your intentions. However, sometimes your complaining seems aimless and uncritical. If your complaint is simply to be loud and make your point, you have accomplished it long ago. The virtue behind being mad is to actually change something that may happen in the future. It loses that virtue when that anger is only used to dwell about something that happened in the past. Use our past mistakes to think about the future, but do it with a little more nuance, for crying out loud. You sound like a college freshman. Just because some crappy plazas that were done poorly in the past failed doesn't lead to the conclusion that we should have no plazas. Maybe we could use a good one, in a good location, and strive toward building over the bad ones.