yeah it's not a million miles away, but imagine if you added say 20 minutes extra commute time each way ... that might add up to like 170 hours extra each year on the road. i could do a lot with 170 hours in a year as i imagine other people have calculated. so it is hyperbole to say it's a million miles away but a serious calculation of the extra commute time shows its not all just hype.shimmy wrote:The responses I'm seeing on Facebook are quite astonishing. People on the Missouri side really believe that O'Fallon/SAFB is a million miles away.
Yeah, I understand that, and it's a fair point. But my astonishment was more with the fact of people either acting like Scott was not in the region or actually not realizing that it's literally 20 minutes from downtown.ynot wrote:yeah it's not a million miles away, but imagine if you added say 20 minutes extra commute time each way ... that might add up to like 170 hours extra each year on the road. i could do a lot with 170 hours in a year as i imagine other people have calculated. so it is hyperbole to say it's a million miles away but a serious calculation of the extra commute time shows its not all just hype.shimmy wrote:The responses I'm seeing on Facebook are quite astonishing. People on the Missouri side really believe that O'Fallon/SAFB is a million miles away.
Perhaps astonished wasn't the right word, as it really just supported my observation from growing up in the Metro East that people on the Missouri side think you fall off the face of the planet if you cross the river.
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The last comment is real. That there is a huge psychological divide at work. Mainly there is a huge misconception on what and where the Metro East is.
Probably one of the more insightful comments on this board, goat. Lotta of truth there. About STL and development patterns across the U.S.goat314 wrote:
I think we have more of a demand problem than anything else and I dont think its really related to "urban form" or bike lanes or any crap like that. Its related to our transitional post industrial economy, extreme fragmentation, and bad weather. If St. Louis was growing like Denver, or Tampa it would likely have a lot more cookie cutter urban infill that urbanists desire, but it would also still be 90% crap suburban development and the metro areas McMansion hinterlands would be reaching deep into Franklin and Jefferson County by now, could you imagine St. Charles being a right wing county of 1 million people or I-70 with 10 lanes in each direction? Well that's what a booming St. Louis would look like if it were growing 1,000,000 per decade.
We can debate the real impact here, we can debate the urban form of the project, we can debate what this means for Paul McKee, etc., etc., etc., but as a city resident and property owner in downtown and south city I am thrilled to see a 1.7 billion dollar investment in the near Northside. I want to believe this will be the catalyst for great things to come.
I understand your love of the Metro East, but you have to at least admit that Scott AFB is an island. The perception would be different if Scott wasn't surrounded on all four sides by farm land/woods.shimmy wrote:Yeah, I understand that, and it's a fair point. But my astonishment was more with the fact of people either acting like Scott was not in the region or actually not realizing that it's literally 20 minutes from downtown.
Right now, without traffic, Google Maps shows drivetime from the Arch to Scott AFB as 30 minutes. Add in one small mouse fart on the Poplar Street Bridge and that drivetime goes to 45 minutes plus. And it's 42 minutes by Metrolink from the Landing station to Scott. So I'm not sure where that 20 minute number comes from.
Ha! I wonder if the people complaining about the potential for the land have ever actually visited it.sirshankalot wrote:Bunch of unhappy whiners who hide behind the comfort of their keyboard and anonymity...Nothing will make these people happy. It's a nice win. North STL is a sh*t hole and has been for 45 years..."Let's try something else"...just like the theme your beloved Obama is using in Cuba and other places.
Good God.
And nice get Moorlander hopefully you shut that dude up.
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From the FInal EIS, NGA surveyed young workers in the hiring pipeline and of those who responded the majority said the City site was their preferred site of the 4 and Metro East the least preferred. Nice!south compton wrote:Big difference between a vibrant, centrally located suburb and a borderline ex-urban area like SAFB. If we were to rank the desirability of all 90+ suburbs in the area for millennials, I'm not sure Shiloh would even be in the top half, in large part because of its location on the fringes of an ex-urban area and its distance from the most vibrant area in the region (i.e., the I-64 corridor on the Missouri side of the river).
I would be curious as to what the reasons are for that. My two guesses would be 1) Longer commute, as discussed, and 2) Negative perception of the Metro East, as also discussed.roger wyoming II wrote:From the FInal EIS, NGA surveyed young workers in the hiring pipeline and of those who responded the majority said the City site was their preferred site of the 4 and Metro East the least preferred. Nice!south compton wrote:Big difference between a vibrant, centrally located suburb and a borderline ex-urban area like SAFB. If we were to rank the desirability of all 90+ suburbs in the area for millennials, I'm not sure Shiloh would even be in the top half, in large part because of its location on the fringes of an ex-urban area and its distance from the most vibrant area in the region (i.e., the I-64 corridor on the Missouri side of the river).
I got 20 mins in my head from using O'Fallon, which is where the majority of Airmen who live off base choose to live (anecdotally and practically speaking) as it's five minutes from the front gate.
The thing is, I don't think many people would be moving into these properties even in the absence of McKee. They'd be rotting away without him.urban_dilettante wrote:^ while i agree with your sentiments about the NGIA, i have to respectfully disagree about Mckee. He'd be up sh*t creek if this development hadn't fallen into his lap. He's done little to nothing except clandestinely buy up a bunch of properties, let them rot even more, and drive down property values for the people who live there. And now he's likely going to make money off of land that was handed to him by the city essentially for free. That's a lot of crooked if you ask me. not a fan.
It doesn't make any sense for him to invest tons of money into repairing them until there's actually demand to live there.
This area had already been gutted.
Paul McKee and his multiple "ghost" companies started RAPING the area years ago with his "ghost" buying sprees.
McKee strangled this area and let it die slowly; and without sleuthy bloggers he would have continued to do it.
To suggest this barren and under-utilized land, that will now become home to the NGA, is the city's fault is very questionable to me.
It would have been nice to see this area redeveloped like Stapleton in Denver. Slow metropolitan growth had nothing to with it. There was no lack of vision on the city's part either. The city gave this area the largest TIF in Missouri State history, which illustrated to me, the City of St. Louis wanted the best for lower North City, the City of St. Louis and its inhabitants.
I personally believe McKee when he says that it was hard to find investors/lenders. However, I believe it was partly hard due to his own financial shenanigans and track record AND because these properties (and land) were in lower North City. Red-lining in predominately black neighborhoods has been a problem in St. Louis (and America) FOREVER - irregardless of black income levels. FOREVER. And some habits just are hard to die.
Further, the city only saw this area as a great opportunity to secure and maintain the NGA, otherwise, there would've been no other place in the city. NONE. The riverfront area where the new stadium would've gone could have been an option, however, it wasn't studied by the Army Corps/NGA because other projects had been proposed there. The city was right to jump on this site because McKee couldn't get it developed. With the exception of a few projects, his development projects have been helter-skelter and underwhelming in the area.
Let's face it, McKee owned the land and many of the dilapidated houses and buildings in area.
McKee pulled and held the strings when it came to St. Louis City and the State of Missouri.
The City of St. Louis and McKee lucked out because of this availability of land that McKee scorched.
Unfortunately, those remaining residents in the area, many who are legitimate taxpayers and homeowners, will fall victim to eminent domain because of McKee's clandestine activities and strangulation of the NGA neighborhoods/wards. The irony is the City wins because OF HIS cladestine activities. Again, while I feel bad for the people in this area who are taxpayers, the city is right to act to save these jobs. Hopefully, they will get a premium for their properties.
The "urban" argument is non-sensical to me because the current campus in South City isn't urban either. Not every development in New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Cleveland, Denver, Detroit, Atlanta, Houston, etc. is urban. And everything built new in St. Louis City isn't suburban in nature.
Paul McKee and his multiple "ghost" companies started RAPING the area years ago with his "ghost" buying sprees.
McKee strangled this area and let it die slowly; and without sleuthy bloggers he would have continued to do it.
To suggest this barren and under-utilized land, that will now become home to the NGA, is the city's fault is very questionable to me.
It would have been nice to see this area redeveloped like Stapleton in Denver. Slow metropolitan growth had nothing to with it. There was no lack of vision on the city's part either. The city gave this area the largest TIF in Missouri State history, which illustrated to me, the City of St. Louis wanted the best for lower North City, the City of St. Louis and its inhabitants.
I personally believe McKee when he says that it was hard to find investors/lenders. However, I believe it was partly hard due to his own financial shenanigans and track record AND because these properties (and land) were in lower North City. Red-lining in predominately black neighborhoods has been a problem in St. Louis (and America) FOREVER - irregardless of black income levels. FOREVER. And some habits just are hard to die.
Further, the city only saw this area as a great opportunity to secure and maintain the NGA, otherwise, there would've been no other place in the city. NONE. The riverfront area where the new stadium would've gone could have been an option, however, it wasn't studied by the Army Corps/NGA because other projects had been proposed there. The city was right to jump on this site because McKee couldn't get it developed. With the exception of a few projects, his development projects have been helter-skelter and underwhelming in the area.
Let's face it, McKee owned the land and many of the dilapidated houses and buildings in area.
McKee pulled and held the strings when it came to St. Louis City and the State of Missouri.
The City of St. Louis and McKee lucked out because of this availability of land that McKee scorched.
Unfortunately, those remaining residents in the area, many who are legitimate taxpayers and homeowners, will fall victim to eminent domain because of McKee's clandestine activities and strangulation of the NGA neighborhoods/wards. The irony is the City wins because OF HIS cladestine activities. Again, while I feel bad for the people in this area who are taxpayers, the city is right to act to save these jobs. Hopefully, they will get a premium for their properties.
The "urban" argument is non-sensical to me because the current campus in South City isn't urban either. Not every development in New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Cleveland, Denver, Detroit, Atlanta, Houston, etc. is urban. And everything built new in St. Louis City isn't suburban in nature.
I have mercy on McKee, because it's going to take more than one investor to turn around the demand decline in North City and give it some momentum. It's going to take quite a few regional players working together. When you think about it, McKee has done more than anyone else. He has taken a financial risk himself. At least he has a plan. Who has done more than him in the last 60 years?
It's going to take the City working together with McKee, other additional investors, the NGA, some FedGov funding, a new soccer stadium (would have been nice to have football as well), etc. If McKee spends $10 million redeveloping a few blocks to start out, who's realistically going to move in if the surrounding blocks are still urban war zone?
This City's problems are partly cultural. Too much deliberation, red tape, needless political animosity, and negativity and finger-pointing. The most important thing is to have shovels piercing the ground as soon as possible in as many places as possible. I'd prefer mixed-use, walkable urban development, but that's not going to happen everywhere right away in the middle of all that urban decay. We can start demanding that when the street grids get more filled in and people actually feel safe walking around there.
It's going to take the City working together with McKee, other additional investors, the NGA, some FedGov funding, a new soccer stadium (would have been nice to have football as well), etc. If McKee spends $10 million redeveloping a few blocks to start out, who's realistically going to move in if the surrounding blocks are still urban war zone?
This City's problems are partly cultural. Too much deliberation, red tape, needless political animosity, and negativity and finger-pointing. The most important thing is to have shovels piercing the ground as soon as possible in as many places as possible. I'd prefer mixed-use, walkable urban development, but that's not going to happen everywhere right away in the middle of all that urban decay. We can start demanding that when the street grids get more filled in and people actually feel safe walking around there.
tl;dr version
McKee by himself does not have the power to turn the area around. It would be decaying at the same rate without him. The fact that he's amassed all that property, however, does make a mass development project a possibility. But he needs help and cooperation from everyone else, the City included.
McKee by himself does not have the power to turn the area around. It would be decaying at the same rate without him. The fact that he's amassed all that property, however, does make a mass development project a possibility. But he needs help and cooperation from everyone else, the City included.
Well i'm really happy they picked n.stl but i would have been ok with safb as well since it still keeps it within the metro region.shimmy wrote:Yeah, I understand that, and it's a fair point. But my astonishment was more with the fact of people either acting like Scott was not in the region or actually not realizing that it's literally 20 minutes from downtown.ynot wrote:yeah it's not a million miles away, but imagine if you added say 20 minutes extra commute time each way ... that might add up to like 170 hours extra each year on the road. i could do a lot with 170 hours in a year as i imagine other people have calculated. so it is hyperbole to say it's a million miles away but a serious calculation of the extra commute time shows its not all just hype.shimmy wrote:The responses I'm seeing on Facebook are quite astonishing. People on the Missouri side really believe that O'Fallon/SAFB is a million miles away.
Perhaps astonished wasn't the right word, as it really just supported my observation from growing up in the Metro East that people on the Missouri side think you fall off the face of the planet if you cross the river.
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Well, I'm pretty sure that Old North Restoration Group wasn't too happy about McKee buying up and sitting on buildings that they were hoping to rehab, and the city has given McKee nothing but cooperation, again, to the tune of the largest tax subsidy MO has ever seen. He's lucky that the NGIA fell into his lap; he may have nice intentions but it's become apparent that he doesn't have the ability to get the job done otherwise.jsbru wrote:tl;dr version
McKee by himself does not have the power to turn the area around. It would be decaying at the same rate without him. The fact that he's amassed all that property, however, does make a mass development project a possibility. But he needs help and cooperation from everyone else, the City included.
some people can't comprehend why anyone would care about a place that Buzzfeed hasn't declared "sick". i've lived in a number of different places as well (including a couple of "hip" cities) and traveled a good deal and I always end up wanting to go back to St. Louis, partly to help it achieve its vast potential, but also because of the things you take for granted when you live there.CarexCurator wrote:I did get out. I've been around the globe twice, and it got smaller each time. I lived elsewhere most of my adult life. I chose to move to St. Louis for its fascinating problems. One can get lost in London or Shanghai and be amazed by planners with funding and incredible urban spaces, but in St. Louis the simple act of living here makes a transformative difference. It's a city of disinvestment and ridiculous people. If you show up here and spend money, pay taxes, and dilute the ridiculousness, then you can see the impact of those actions. There are tipping points everywhere.Aesir wrote:Frankly, you should get out as well. It's a wide world, with a lot of places that are a lot better than here.
I'm just saying consider coming back some day.
Sorry, but McKee is partly to blame for the decay in the NGA West area. Instead of fixing up the houses and buildings, he let them rot to death. He left them susceptible to vagrancy, fires, brick rustlers, drug dens, collapse and trash. Sorry, but he doesn't get a pass from me although he did do some development.
At the end of the day, McKee was only interested in lining his pockets - not the overall welfare of the city or lower north St. Louis.
I'm not drinking the potion.
He could have easily fixed up properties, built in-fills - a little at a time even. He nor any other developer did this in Lafayette Square or Soulard. Keep in mind those neighborhoods were once in shambles too. Rampant crime and other problems existed in those neighborhoods too before they were stabilized - same with parts of the CWE. Let's not pretend all of these areas were always "peaches and cream". Change started for those neighborhoods one development and in-fill at a time.
Imagine if he had followed the lead of the planners, backers and supporters of the Old Northside Restoration Group. Paul McKee seems to have had "bigger" plans than that. At one time, I recall him envisioning turning the area into suburbia in the city.
At the end of the day, McKee was only interested in lining his pockets - not the overall welfare of the city or lower north St. Louis.
I'm not drinking the potion.
He could have easily fixed up properties, built in-fills - a little at a time even. He nor any other developer did this in Lafayette Square or Soulard. Keep in mind those neighborhoods were once in shambles too. Rampant crime and other problems existed in those neighborhoods too before they were stabilized - same with parts of the CWE. Let's not pretend all of these areas were always "peaches and cream". Change started for those neighborhoods one development and in-fill at a time.
Imagine if he had followed the lead of the planners, backers and supporters of the Old Northside Restoration Group. Paul McKee seems to have had "bigger" plans than that. At one time, I recall him envisioning turning the area into suburbia in the city.
And let me say this........................
Overall, I am happy this $1.7-billion investment is being made in the City of St. Louis. To the naysayers who don't believe it will happen as planned...........think again. Look at the new NGA campus out east. Also, this development is about national security - not B.S. like Cordish, BPV and the Cardinals.
The rendering provided is not the final plan. Perhaps they could add an urban "touch" to updated renderings, but still have the area fortified? Pursue it.
Ultimately, I think this project is going to benefit Downtown West, the Locust Street Business District and Midtown the most.
There will be some new residual development in lower north St. Louis City over the years, but those areas I mentioned stand to benefit the most, I think.
I can already see new housing developments as well as NGA support businesses filling space at new/rehabbed office developments along Washington Avenue, Locust, MLK and Delmar.
Overall, I am happy this $1.7-billion investment is being made in the City of St. Louis. To the naysayers who don't believe it will happen as planned...........think again. Look at the new NGA campus out east. Also, this development is about national security - not B.S. like Cordish, BPV and the Cardinals.
The rendering provided is not the final plan. Perhaps they could add an urban "touch" to updated renderings, but still have the area fortified? Pursue it.
Ultimately, I think this project is going to benefit Downtown West, the Locust Street Business District and Midtown the most.
There will be some new residual development in lower north St. Louis City over the years, but those areas I mentioned stand to benefit the most, I think.
I can already see new housing developments as well as NGA support businesses filling space at new/rehabbed office developments along Washington Avenue, Locust, MLK and Delmar.
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^ Basically it was to let it sink to get "the big project" that is popular among the politicians in the area then do something about it.
Well lets see what goes on now that such a thing has occurred. Since hopefully this does occur. I would note that as much negative reputation there is for the area can be turned around quick and a rather fast revitalization can occur. Best example for this is the Over the Rhine neighborhood in Cincinnati which was in serious decline and the scene of riots in 2001. That neighborhood turned around fast which is more glaring in a slow growing metro. So a comparable thing is possible here, since regional growth is not a limiting factor in this as that example shows.
Well lets see what goes on now that such a thing has occurred. Since hopefully this does occur. I would note that as much negative reputation there is for the area can be turned around quick and a rather fast revitalization can occur. Best example for this is the Over the Rhine neighborhood in Cincinnati which was in serious decline and the scene of riots in 2001. That neighborhood turned around fast which is more glaring in a slow growing metro. So a comparable thing is possible here, since regional growth is not a limiting factor in this as that example shows.
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arch city wrote: Unfortunately, those remaining residents in the area, many who are legitimate taxpayers and homeowners, will fall victim to eminent domain because of McKee's clandestine activities and strangulation of the NGA neighborhoods/wards. The irony is the City wins because OF HIS cladestine activities. Again, while I feel bad for the people in this area who are taxpayers, the city is right to act to save these jobs. Hopefully, they will get a premium for their properties.
Some of those remaining residents who will be officially pushed out are still there because they refused to cooperate with McKee. They refused to be bought out and they stuck up for their neighborhoods and their houses. Otherwise McKee would have cleared the whole area by now. To ignore them and say nobody cares about that area is a bit harsh. To term their final removal a 'win' or a 'time to smile' is a bit too much. This is treading water not winning.
It's still a very large super block in a long line of super blocks. St. Louis Place Park and Pruitt-Igoe joined by a massive walled off complex is as big of a wall as O'Fallon Park and the two cemeteries further north. If this happens, we've got to break up Pruitt-Igoe into smaller parcels.
I sure hope you aren't, but if you are putting words into my mouth once again........please don't............because that is not what I said or suggested!CarexCurator wrote: To ignore them and say nobody cares about that area is a bit harsh. To term their final removal a 'win' or a 'time to smile' is a bit too much. This is treading water not winning.
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^Nope that was in reference to the last couple pages on here and the crazy crazy things commented elsewhere. Not specifically at you.
here, here... let's say that again 1.7 BILLION! I live in the DC metro area and they are currently seeking a new suburban location for the FBI headquarters and they have allocated only 1.4 billion to that (i say "only" in a relative manner too cuz it's still a lot). We're talking the FBI headquarters in expensive *ss metro DC area. $1.7B is a lot of numbers.arch city wrote:And let me say this........................
Overall, I am happy this $1.7-billion investment is being made in the City of St. Louis. To the naysayers who don't believe it will happen as planned...........think again. Look at the new NGA campus out east. Also, this development is about national security - not B.S. like Cordish, BPV and the Cardinals.
The rendering provided is not the final plan. Perhaps they could add an urban "touch" to updated renderings, but still have the area fortified? Pursue it.
Ultimately, I think this project is going to benefit Downtown West, the Locust Street Business District and Midtown the most.
There will be some new residual development in lower north St. Louis City over the years, but those areas I mentioned stand to benefit the most, I think.
I can already see new housing developments as well as NGA support businesses filling space at new/rehabbed office developments along Washington Avenue, Locust, MLK and Delmar.
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I think the actual construction project is about $965million. Only $100m for allocated for engineering and design and that's usually 10% of project cost.