Wait, are we seriously going to complain about using eminent domain to get McKee the hell out of Northside?
Never noticed the grim reaper until just now.quincunx wrote:Great news! While the project likely won't be good urbanism, job sprawl is so much worse for the region. Hope they move the historic buildings including the Buster Brown Blue Ribbon Factory.
Great news!
^ The owner wants to save the building and move it across the street to the Pruitt Igoe site (across from NGA boundary). Hopefully he can get the attention of some developers that want to save it. He wants to turn it into a boutique hotel.
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Boom. Blight removed and more money for City Hall. A win for once.
I wonder when the last time was that 3,100 jobs moved to North St. Louis City.
The responses I'm seeing on Facebook are quite astonishing. People on the Missouri side really believe that O'Fallon/SAFB is a million miles away.
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Better stigmatized as a million miles away shimmy than stigmatized as a place where everybody gets shot. There are some depressing comments out there.
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The editorial in the post dispatch today is very strange. It is a call to action for local banks to get behind McKee to fix infrastructure and the blighted looking landscape around NGA so that during the public comment period the NGA doesn't change it's mind.
Does the PD know anything about how development works? Does the PD think that McKee will all of a sudden start mad remedial actions around the NGA site?
Wow, I thought they were more savvy than that...
And, trying to keep up with the thread, how in the world are they ever going to "move" that big building at the corner of Cass and Jefferson? That seems folly of the highest order.
Does the PD know anything about how development works? Does the PD think that McKee will all of a sudden start mad remedial actions around the NGA site?
Wow, I thought they were more savvy than that...
And, trying to keep up with the thread, how in the world are they ever going to "move" that big building at the corner of Cass and Jefferson? That seems folly of the highest order.
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Well do come back some day. We won't be like this forever hopefully. It's over, and I don't want to see arch city and shimmy get into it again since I disagree with both of them. Still I tend to agree with you. The mega projects are greatly undermining this community.Aesir wrote: So enjoy your city as it makes bad decision after bad decision and circles the drain, while you stand by and wonder why your magnificent plans fail again and again. I, and a whole lot of other young people, have already checked out.
NGA is going to be an ugly fortified super block. It will be a dead area, and all those green areas in the renderings will be surface parking. I don't think anyone has said anything convincing about why tech jobs need to be in the urban core in non-urban buildings. If NGA cared about such things, they would have put up some office towers downtown or bought out the AT&T buildings. Nothing about this development will be urban. I know there's a sense of hope that the organization may evolve into a more urban layout over time, but I'm pretty lukewarm to the whole thing.
If NGA left the city but stayed in the region, and the employees actually wanted to live in urban spaces, then they'd still live in the city and pay the earnings tax. I don't think we had to go after this so aggressively. I'd have been just as happy to see the land donated to Habitat for Humanity.
Just takes money.Northside Neighbor wrote:And, trying to keep up with the thread, how in the world are they ever going to "move" that big building at the corner of Cass and Jefferson? That seems folly of the highest order.
1985
How people can manage to find a reason to get upset about this is beyond me. This area of the city needs momentum, and hasn't had any for 60 years. If the NGA doesn't come in here and spark reinvestment, who will? It's going to be vacant for another 60 years if we let purity tests about eminent domain and uninformed demagoguery about TIF financing rule the day.
It's not just some one-off mega project. It's something that's going to create long-term jobs, and demand for housing and retail in an area that has none. It's going to create an excuse for continued development, and get the ball rolling. It's going to expand the tax base so the city can actually take care of its problems.
McKee gets trashed, but he's doing something no one else has been willing to do for the last half-century. People should be thanking him for what he's doing. This NGA project will give him the momentum and credibility his development plan needs.
It's not just some one-off mega project. It's something that's going to create long-term jobs, and demand for housing and retail in an area that has none. It's going to create an excuse for continued development, and get the ball rolling. It's going to expand the tax base so the city can actually take care of its problems.
McKee gets trashed, but he's doing something no one else has been willing to do for the last half-century. People should be thanking him for what he's doing. This NGA project will give him the momentum and credibility his development plan needs.
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^ while i agree with your sentiments about the NGIA, i have to respectfully disagree about Mckee. He'd be up sh*t creek if this development hadn't fallen into his lap. He's done little to nothing except clandestinely buy up a bunch of properties, let them rot even more, and drive down property values for the people who live there. And now he's likely going to make money off of land that was handed to him by the city essentially for free. That's a lot of crooked if you ask me. not a fan.
Unfortunately, I don't see it. I do see getting close to a century of the same self-destructive, thoughtless, and sometimes outright predatory patterns of excusing bad land use, management, and decisions here.CarexCurator wrote:We won't be like this forever hopefully.
I see no reason for St. Louis to get its butt in gear, stop gutting itself, stop treating its vulnerable citizens like sh*t, and stop its decline. It very, very rarely happens throughout history, that a place that has been killing itself for 50-100 years suddenly wakes up and acts like a grownup. Nevermind sudden, even gradual change in a trajectory over the same length of time is rare. This city's mindset is set, for all intents and purposes, and it isn't going to change.
Other cities are growing. The list of "peer cities" we are in has gotten smaller and smaller. Used to be with Boston and Philly. We were just leapfrogged by Denver, Portland as well depending on how you count. Baltimore in a couple years.
So many people I know have moved away. Half the apartments in the CWE that I was looking at over the winter were being vacated by someone taking a job elsewhere. I have to look out for not only myself, but the future wellbeing of my kids. St. Louis continues its decline. I don't want to raise them in an unhappy, low pay, polluted place that is intent on killing itself.
Frankly, you should get out as well. It's a wide world, with a lot of places that are a lot better than here.
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Maybe. Maybe that's the point of today's STL Today editorial. Or maybe not.This NGA project will give him the momentum and credibility his development plan needs.
Personally, I don't think McKee is going to be the one to make much happen. He got lucky with NGA. Nonetheless, credit the man for doing the site assemblage and taking a big risk.
Going forward, there needs to be more than Paul McKee at the helm. Way more. Maybe with the Promise Zone, more targeted investment can come to the area. There needs to be more infrastructure investment, more demolition where buildings are beyond gone, and more services for area workers and residents.
NGA needs to be smartly leveraged into more action. A good start would be N/S Metrolink from NGA and points north to S. Jefferson. Let's see if we can get that done. If that happens (before I'm dead), then I'd say NGA helped catalyze growth in the urban core.
To Aesir, I think you're a scold.
Aesir,
I share your sentiment, but realistically the fastest growing cities with a HUGE amount of development are basically suburban in nature. Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, Austin, Charlotte etc. are all suburban in nature, but kicking St. Louis' butt in many ways. I think we have more of a demand problem than anything else and I dont think its really related to "urban form" or bike lanes or any crap like that. Its related to our transitional post industrial economy, extreme fragmentation, and bad weather. If St. Louis was growing like Denver, or Tampa it would likely have a lot more cookie cutter urban infill that urbanists desire, but it would also still be 90% crap suburban development and the metro areas McMansion hinterlands would be reaching deep into Franklin and Jefferson County by now, could you imagine St. Charles being a right wing county of 1 million people or I-70 with 10 lanes in each direction? Well that's what a booming St. Louis would look like if it were growing 1,000,000 per decade.
I share your sentiment, but realistically the fastest growing cities with a HUGE amount of development are basically suburban in nature. Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, Austin, Charlotte etc. are all suburban in nature, but kicking St. Louis' butt in many ways. I think we have more of a demand problem than anything else and I dont think its really related to "urban form" or bike lanes or any crap like that. Its related to our transitional post industrial economy, extreme fragmentation, and bad weather. If St. Louis was growing like Denver, or Tampa it would likely have a lot more cookie cutter urban infill that urbanists desire, but it would also still be 90% crap suburban development and the metro areas McMansion hinterlands would be reaching deep into Franklin and Jefferson County by now, could you imagine St. Charles being a right wing county of 1 million people or I-70 with 10 lanes in each direction? Well that's what a booming St. Louis would look like if it were growing 1,000,000 per decade.
I don't get the contention that NGA is going to be a suburban deadzone. Is that so much worse than what it is now? A crime filled, economically depressed, barely inhabited stretch of bombed out ruins? If anyone was going to build something there, they would have done it already. At least now it will be keeping 3000+ vital, stable, and high paying jobs in St. Louis City.
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For one if McKee didn't have this land none of this would be possible by McKee having the land the City was able to somewhat force the hand of McKee to giveth back.
I don't get why some of you are bemoaning this decision? An area that hasn't seen any sniff of development in 60s years and some of you want to seem backlandish about it.
When was the last time the city seen this type of development heck BVP which had many promises and we're all still waiting on phase 2.
This maybe happy and sad times for the ones who live in that respective neighborhoods but lets face it i don't want to wait another 60s years for something to get done this is the antidote the city needs and hopefully our leaders can become smarter and collaborate with each other in making the city so much more than what it is now and thats a peaceful beautiful safe smart desirable community for all of us.
I don't feel bad for the Metro East for the war and tensions they were trying to cause and no I'm not one of those who think Scott is far away cause its not.
At the end of the day lets all be proud that the city has finally gotten its chance to smile and shine instead of being sad and cloudy
I don't get why some of you are bemoaning this decision? An area that hasn't seen any sniff of development in 60s years and some of you want to seem backlandish about it.
When was the last time the city seen this type of development heck BVP which had many promises and we're all still waiting on phase 2.
This maybe happy and sad times for the ones who live in that respective neighborhoods but lets face it i don't want to wait another 60s years for something to get done this is the antidote the city needs and hopefully our leaders can become smarter and collaborate with each other in making the city so much more than what it is now and thats a peaceful beautiful safe smart desirable community for all of us.
I don't feel bad for the Metro East for the war and tensions they were trying to cause and no I'm not one of those who think Scott is far away cause its not.
At the end of the day lets all be proud that the city has finally gotten its chance to smile and shine instead of being sad and cloudy
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What's that sound they make in Parliament when there is wide agreement with a statement, that sort of low, grumbly, rumbly, murmer of a hundred bullfrogs? I just made it.For one if McKee didn't have this land none of this would be possible by McKee having the land the City was able to somewhat force the hand of McKee to giveth back.
I don't get why some of you are bemoaning this decision? An area that hasn't seen any sniff of development in 60s years and some of you want to seem backlandish about it.
When was the last time the city seen this type of development heck BVP which had many promises and we're all still waiting on phase 2.
This maybe happy and sad times for the ones who live in that respective neighborhoods but lets face it i don't want to wait another 60s years for something to get done this is the antidote the city needs and hopefully our leaders can become smarter and collaborate with each other in making the city so much more than what it is now and thats a peaceful beautiful safe smart desirable community for all of us.
I don't feel bad for the Metro East for the war and tensions they were trying to cause and no I'm not one of those who think Scott is far away cause its not.
At the end of the day lets all be proud that the city has finally gotten its chance to smile and shine instead of being sad and cloudy
Just saw someone online blame the future loss of SAFB on the city of St. Louis for getting involved.
It blows me away that people expected the city of St. Louis to sit back and pay the price and hardship to protect an Illinois asset. The St. Louis economy hasn't been strong for a long time, but metro east is the fault of Illinois. If SAFB left, the only people to blame are the politicians who have invested more time in Chicago than St. Louis.
It blows me away that people expected the city of St. Louis to sit back and pay the price and hardship to protect an Illinois asset. The St. Louis economy hasn't been strong for a long time, but metro east is the fault of Illinois. If SAFB left, the only people to blame are the politicians who have invested more time in Chicago than St. Louis.
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Seems to be the argument is an idealism vs realism debate in regards to weather this is a good thing or not. Also I can understand the fears on SAFB closing, but you also don't want to make decision on making it harder to do so. Since that was a reason Mid-America Airport was built. That concern is likely related to how recent population numbers show that almost every Metro East county and as a whole is losing population, which is something as a region is a concern.
At least now we can start focusing on the next question, mainly what to do with the existing NGA site once they move in a few years? Is there any brownfield issues that needs to be addressed there?
At least now we can start focusing on the next question, mainly what to do with the existing NGA site once they move in a few years? Is there any brownfield issues that needs to be addressed there?
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I'm not sure if this has been mentioned in the past, but could locating the NGA by Scott AFB, have been viewed as risky by Cardillo and his group of decision makers. I know that Scott seems safe now, but what if, at some point in the near or distant future, Scott is targeted for closure? If this would happen someday, NGA would be stuck out in the middle of nowhere, by a closed AFB. While this seems unlikely any time soon, could that have played a role in their decision.....? From Stltoday.com
St. Clair County has fought to preserve Scott Air Force Base and its role as the Metro East’s largest employer. NGA would have been an added benefit for Scott when the Defense Department considers future base closures, which could happen as early as 2017. Defense officials had considered moving NGA to Scott during the last closure round in 2005, but lacked the funding.
That's a legitimate and different perspective on what has been discussed before. Illinois advocates have always argued that moving NGA to St. Clair will help protect Scott from any future closings. That's been the prime argument and the main reason I was for moving it to St. Clair. It wasn't much discussed about what would happen if they closed Scott anyways.
But, I don't think that was the main reason for the decision. I think the "Promise Zone" was the biggest reason for it. While I understand the millennial/desirable urban location argument, I don't really buy it. There's a thread over in urban living about the majority of millennials still preferring the suburbs, and if that was really a huge factor in recruiting talent then I would expect more business leaders to be making investments in the city (of course, it could also be argued that such lack of investment is a sign for regional stagnation).
But, I don't think that was the main reason for the decision. I think the "Promise Zone" was the biggest reason for it. While I understand the millennial/desirable urban location argument, I don't really buy it. There's a thread over in urban living about the majority of millennials still preferring the suburbs, and if that was really a huge factor in recruiting talent then I would expect more business leaders to be making investments in the city (of course, it could also be argued that such lack of investment is a sign for regional stagnation).
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I did get out. I've been around the globe twice, and it got smaller each time. I lived elsewhere most of my adult life. I chose to move to St. Louis for its fascinating problems. One can get lost in London or Shanghai and be amazed by planners with funding and incredible urban spaces, but in St. Louis the simple act of living here makes a transformative difference. It's a city of disinvestment and ridiculous people. If you show up here and spend money, pay taxes, and dilute the ridiculousness, then you can see the impact of those actions. There are tipping points everywhere.Aesir wrote:Frankly, you should get out as well. It's a wide world, with a lot of places that are a lot better than here.
I'm just saying consider coming back some day.
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Big difference between a vibrant, centrally located suburb and a borderline ex-urban area like SAFB. If we were to rank the desirability of all 90+ suburbs in the area for millennials, I'm not sure Shiloh would even be in the top half, in large part because of its location on the fringes of an ex-urban area and its distance from the most vibrant area in the region (i.e., the I-64 corridor on the Missouri side of the river).shimmy wrote:. While I understand the millennial/desirable urban location argument, I don't really buy it. There's a thread over in urban living about the majority of millennials still preferring the suburbs, and if that was really a huge factor in recruiting talent then I would expect more business leaders to be making investments in the city (of course, it could also be argued that such lack of investment is a sign for regional stagnation).
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I found this rant ironical hypocritical given this previous post. The city just secured more higher paying jobs but I wonder what you would be saying today of STL City just lost 3k jobsAesir wrote:I'm getting close to being done with this city.
How many times do you people need to be taught the hard lessons about projects like this? From the Arch Grounds, to the highways, to Mill Creek Valley, to Stadium version 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and on and on and on...... They are anti urban, they are anti density. They are destructive to the social fabric of the city. They are destructive to the tax base of the city.
This is completely ignoring how these people's lives will be uprooted and changed for the worse, thanks for this. But hey, after all, they're just poor blacks, who gives a f***? We'll pay em (below what is fair, below market value, below what they would need to truly make it an even, lateral trade, but f*** it, we know whats better for them then they do!), so shutup about any moral implications here. If they're pissed about it, tell them they got their opportunity to move to a housing project or Section 8 somewhere. It's a step up from the home they've owned for generations, right?!?!
And so it goes. Just like Mill Creek Valley, on and on and on, until St. Louis is a hollowed out shell of the great city it used to be.
I can't help but notice karma in this. You keep pushing this sh*tty, badly thought out, morally repugnant anti-urban crap. And karma gets you. 50 years on, St. Louis would kill to have the housing stock in Mill Creek Valley back. Instead we've got the KEZK headquarters, the Wells Fargo Borg Cube, and the hollowed out shell of a sh*tty date-rape bar named Harry's.
Karma's a b****, ain't it?
Frankly, it's not surprising when the "Urbanists" in a city, like most on this board, aren't really urbanists. This monstrosity, and the atrocious debacle with the Rams stadium, has shown me how much people on this board care about Urban issues and density. And it isn't a whole lot.
So enjoy your city as it makes bad decision after bad decision and circles the drain, while you stand by and wonder why your magnificent plans fail again and again. I, and a whole lot of other young people, have already checked out.
