Typically, casinos design their flooring to be very busy and their ceilings to be very boring. This draws the eye to look straight ahead, where all of the slot machine signs/lights are at eye level.
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I predict that within 8 years the building of this casino will be viewed as one of the biggest mistakes the city made in the first decade of the 2000's. Not saying it won't be profitable but its humongous, tacky design will be more of a hindrance then a benefit. Kind of like the St. Louis Centre of Slays administration.
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southcitygent wrote:I predict that within 8 years the building of this casino will be viewed as one of the biggest mistakes the city made in the first decade of the 2000's. Not saying it won't be profitable but its humongous, tacky design will be more of a hindrance then a benefit. Kind of like the St. Louis Centre of Slays administration.
I'd say that if it remains profitable it won't rank anywhere among the cities' mistakes. I also doubt that the residents of St. Louis will form a wholly new and high-brow asthetic culture in the next 8 years that will cause many people to consider the project tacky.
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You can also find many people that feel the failure of St. Louis Centre is a direct result of the type of people who patronize it and not because of poor design. Or that the decline of the city is a result of its not being suburban enough. Oh the politicians will love the tax revenue, but in the end this casino like gaming in general is a short sighted solutuion.
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I think Lumiere will come back to haunt Slay as well. I really think that St. Charles/Maryland Heights will be hard to compete with in the casino market. Tourists with cars will probably still head out to these casinos.
Also, this development has really sealed the fate of Laclede's Landing. Instead of developing a plan that calls for salvaging what remains and reinvesting, reorienting, and redeveloping the Landing into something other than a nightlife destination, we get a casino. The loss of the Switzer, Mississippi Nights, and the potential of the casino to become an island all unto itself, the competition with established downtown restaurants...
Jane Jacobs' "Cataclysmic Money" comes to mind.
Also, this development has really sealed the fate of Laclede's Landing. Instead of developing a plan that calls for salvaging what remains and reinvesting, reorienting, and redeveloping the Landing into something other than a nightlife destination, we get a casino. The loss of the Switzer, Mississippi Nights, and the potential of the casino to become an island all unto itself, the competition with established downtown restaurants...
Jane Jacobs' "Cataclysmic Money" comes to mind.
Not that I necessarily disagree with your assesment in this particular case, MDH, but after reading your posts over the past couple of months, is there anything Saint Louis is doing right?
These are tenants announced thus far. Other tenants could be announced in the future.
Restaurants
-Burger Bar™ St. Louis
-Casino Bar
-Aqua Piano Bar
-Asia
-Atrium
-Glow Bar
-SLeeK, a steakhouse and ultra lounge
-Kitchen Buffet & Bistro
-V.I.P.
-Peet's Coffee and Tea™
Retail
-Blush of Lumiere Place
-E.T.C.
-b. Loved
-The Men's Room
Restaurants
-Burger Bar™ St. Louis
-Casino Bar
-Aqua Piano Bar
-Asia
-Atrium
-Glow Bar
-SLeeK, a steakhouse and ultra lounge
-Kitchen Buffet & Bistro
-V.I.P.
-Peet's Coffee and Tea™
Retail
-Blush of Lumiere Place
-E.T.C.
-b. Loved
-The Men's Room
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Peets!!!! Holy SH!T. OK - now I'm definitely checking this place out. (I feel like such a sell-out, but a Peets in St. Louis is cool.)
I'd say that if this place does well for 10-15 years before needing an overhaul/redesign then that's great. Can anyone hear name a significant development that has remained successful without changes for much more than a decade? Michigan Avenue in Chicago is constantly reinventing itself, Fanuiel Hall and Market in Boston likewise. A development shouldn't be deemed a failure because it needs to be rethought after a decade.
I'd say that if this place does well for 10-15 years before needing an overhaul/redesign then that's great. Can anyone hear name a significant development that has remained successful without changes for much more than a decade? Michigan Avenue in Chicago is constantly reinventing itself, Fanuiel Hall and Market in Boston likewise. A development shouldn't be deemed a failure because it needs to be rethought after a decade.
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steve wrote:Not that I necessarily disagree with your assesment in this particular case, MDH, but after reading your posts over the past couple of months, is there anything Saint Louis is doing right?
Haha! Do not take the criticism to be a bad thing.
I just want the best, even when it doesn't seem all that realistic.
The more and more I experience New Orleans and other cities outside St. Louis, the more I see the city and its leaders' stagnancy. There is simply no future in the current leadership of the city, and there is certainly no regional body that offers a compelling alternative.
It is a city resigned to a sad state of complacency, where those who want change are forced to accept what comes along and those who despise change are pleased by the conservative atmosphere overall.
I have watched one (usually young and progressive) St. Louis booster after the other simply feel the push against change is just too oppressive to take any longer. And they leave.
To be sure, it's a better time than ever to do something about it. We have investors. We have people beginning to wake up to the fact that beneath their feet is the most undervalued land containing the prettiest and least appreciated urban and suburban architecture in the country.
I would love to see more small and mid scale investment to know the city's healthy. If we had ten 4545 Lindell's or if Millennium were able to build all of its proposed projects in the next five years, that would be a good sign.
Who knows? Maybe the Charter school push will be a major catalyst. Maybe Ballpark Village will be excellently articulated and will cause a residential boom in south downtown. Maybe Chouteau's Lake will beautify downtown and please residents and tourists alike. Maybe Lumiere will dominate all other area casinos and stuff city coffers.
But the city will still be grasping for an identity. It will still be exporting its people and its money to other more successful and progressive cities. These have to end.
Apparently, Burger Bar™ St. Louis is going to be a yuppie gourmet Burger Bar. There's a location already open in Las Vegas with St. Louis and San Francisco under development and possibly Hawaii. Renown Chef, Hubert Keller is the man behind the concept.
Check out the website.
http://www.fleurdelyssf.com/
St. Louis is garnering a lot of trendy restaurants. Good for her.
Check out the website.
http://www.fleurdelyssf.com/
St. Louis is garnering a lot of trendy restaurants. Good for her.
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Matt Drops The H wrote:The more and more I experience New Orleans and other cities outside St. Louis, the more I see the city and its leaders' stagnancy.
Sometimes it just doesn't seem as though you've been in New Orleans or other cities long enough to see that the challenges large American cities face are astonishingly similar. Right now there's someone whinning about how Charlotte is losing some of its top talent, or how Chicago is no longer the architecture capital of the world, or how the newbies in Portland aren't really urban minded and the new light rail line is only carrying 8,000 riders a day . . . and all because of a lack of civic leadership.
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And while New Orleans has a more marketable identity and culture the same forces of corruption and good ole boys network you complain about in St. Louis are crippling the Crescent City.
bpe235 wrote:stlien wrote:
does anyone know who handles the marketing for Lumiere Place?
The executive director of marketing for Lumiere Place is Mario (can't remember his last name at the moment)
SK+G handles the pnkinc corporate advertising.
Thank you. You wouldn't have his contact info by any chance, would you?
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stlien wrote:bpe235 wrote:stlien wrote:
does anyone know who handles the marketing for Lumiere Place?
The executive director of marketing for Lumiere Place is Mario (can't remember his last name at the moment)
SK+G handles the pnkinc corporate advertising.
Thank you. You wouldn't have his contact info by any chance, would you?
not gonna give out anyone's contact info over the net... try calling down there if you really wanna talk someone.
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I'll remain optimistic about Lumiere. How many new jobs on Laclede's Landing? Isn't it over 1,000? You would think that they will fill at least a few more lofts & apartments in the downtown area.
And I don't buy this argument that Lumiere will hurt its neighbors. Out of all the people that visit this place, I'm sure a few will spill out onto the landing. Yes, they have tunnels and walkways to funnel people into the casino, but it will mostly be new people who wouldn't have otherwise set foot on the landing.
While I go out often, I would say that I've been to Laclede's Landing maybe 3 times this year. I'll probably go quite a bit more next year. I'll check out the new bars and restaurants with friends, then migrate outside the casino to some of the local bars/clubs. I don't tend to run with the blue hairs or hoosiers, but I don't think they will overrun the place anyway!
And I don't buy this argument that Lumiere will hurt its neighbors. Out of all the people that visit this place, I'm sure a few will spill out onto the landing. Yes, they have tunnels and walkways to funnel people into the casino, but it will mostly be new people who wouldn't have otherwise set foot on the landing.
While I go out often, I would say that I've been to Laclede's Landing maybe 3 times this year. I'll probably go quite a bit more next year. I'll check out the new bars and restaurants with friends, then migrate outside the casino to some of the local bars/clubs. I don't tend to run with the blue hairs or hoosiers, but I don't think they will overrun the place anyway!
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southsidepride wrote:And while New Orleans has a more marketable identity and culture the same forces of corruption and good ole boys network you complain about in St. Louis are crippling the Crescent City.
True. New Orleans, as has been discussed at length, has many problems. And Grover--you are right to some degree. Of course there are concerns and complaints in every city among residents and civic boosters.
But St. Louis doesn't complain about rapid gentrification and inflated housing prices for a reason. Because demand to live here is low. Why should this be? New Orleans suffers from some of the same, thought the attitude post-Katrina is markedly different.
I won't go into this much further, since this is a topic on a casino, but still, I think the reason urbanstl forumers are annoyed with my negativity is because these are the sticky questions and complaints that deserve answers and consideration.
Lumiere is not a unique and egregious lack of vision, characteristic only of St. Louis. Given the overall health of downtown St. Louis though, will Lumiere be sustainable? I have my doubts. That's all I'm voicing right now.
I think that Lumiere was a no-win situation for Slay. STL has been growing into a rather large gambling town (unfortunately) and is pulling in a lot of regional people for that reason. If Slay were to have rejected a casino in the city, and instead Pinnacle built one on the east side and still built the South County casino, people would have been calling for Slay's head b/c the city missed out on 1000+ jobs and a good source of revenue. Instead, Slay was able to get Pinnacle to build the casino in the city, and the largest total investment casino in the region at that.
I agree that the city should have been more proactive in working with Pinnacle on the design and that it could have DEFINATELY been better integrated into the city and surroundings, but considering the investment and how other areas surrounding the city (east and north) would have been more than happy with the casino, I think Slay made the best choice.
I agree that the city should have been more proactive in working with Pinnacle on the design and that it could have DEFINATELY been better integrated into the city and surroundings, but considering the investment and how other areas surrounding the city (east and north) would have been more than happy with the casino, I think Slay made the best choice.
I just don't like how big the footprint of the complex is and that the parking garage is taller than the damn casino.
Of course, I realize this has all been said a thousand times before, but after looking at those pics again and driving around the complex recently...ugh.
Of course, I realize this has all been said a thousand times before, but after looking at those pics again and driving around the complex recently...ugh.
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Doesn't matter what was built on this property, there would still be % of the population that b**** and complain... You can't please everyone, that is for sure!
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I don't think that Lumiere is going to want to put the Landing out of business. Why? Because they want their casino to be in a vibrant area. Their front doors open right onto Second St. If they suck the life out of the Landing and it becomes even more of a ghost town, then what seperates Lumiere from the Casino Queen--which has nothing of interest around it? If the Landing becomes a vibrant, busy place, that can only help Lumiere.
Also, Lumiere's deal with the city calls for the casino to spend a certain amout on maintaining and improving the Landing. Don't remember the exact number, but it was something in the 8 figure-range over the next few years. That will replace a lot of....uh....cobblestones.
Also, Lumiere's deal with the city calls for the casino to spend a certain amout on maintaining and improving the Landing. Don't remember the exact number, but it was something in the 8 figure-range over the next few years. That will replace a lot of....uh....cobblestones.
P-D, 1991 wrote:Pittsburgh businessman John Connelly says gaming is the key to the riverfront's future. Connelly, who owns all the excursion boats on the riverfront and the closed Admiral, says he has invested about $30 million so far in the St. Louis riverfront. He plans to invest more, he said, if Missouri voters approve riverboat gambling.
Connelly says he will pump up to $25 million more into the Admiral to make it a casino that would be ''the grandest of the grand.'' If it's a success, he says, he might convert his new Belle of St. Louis for gaming and bring in more boats.
''Gaming will fill the hotels. It will fill the restaurants. It will fill the convention center. . . . It will fill everything and make St. Louis the mecca of the middle west,'' he says.
''And if I'm allowed to dream,'' he continues, ''can you imagine a boardwalk all along the riverfront, maybe with a hotel on it, and an amphitheater with people sitting on the Arch grounds overlooking it?''
William Maritz, the founder of Laclede's Landing, sees a ''busy, bustling riverfront'' in the future, with more boats and activities.
''I think the next couple of years will be terribly exciting for the riverfront,'' he says. ''I think the Admiral will come back - to the surprise of everyone. I think gaming will be acceptable, and I think there will be a new hotel in Laclede's Landing, and some major new development north of Laclede's Landing.''
P-D. 1992 wrote:Missouri riverboat casinos in the St. Louis area can be expected to hire 5,400 employees and stimulate annual demand for 1.3 million room nights at area hotels, according to a study released Monday.
With the indirect employment produced by the riverboats as well as jobs resulting from the increased tourism that they will generate, the report states, a total of 12,681 new jobs would be created. The study was commissioned by MO-TARGET, a group funded by casino operators and local corporations to drum up support for the riverboat gambling referendum on Missouri's ballot on Nov. 3.
The research was done by Fleishman-Hillard Research, which subcontracted with Micro Economics Ltd. That's a consulting firm run by John Qualls, an assistant professor of economics at Maryville University.
''Riverboat gambling would have a significant impact on St. Louis' economy,'' Qualls said, predicting that total area income would rise by $286 million. New taxes would bring $14.9 million to St. Louis, $3.4 million to St. Louis County, $1.83 million to St. Charles City and County and $68 million to the state.
The report assumes that gambling, which voters would have to support statewide and locally, would take place on the St. Louis riverfront on the Admiral, the Belle of St. Louis, a new boat moored where the Burger King barge is anchored, a new boat at Laclede's Landing between Eads Bridge and the Martin Luther King Bridge and a new boat on the St. Charles riverfront.
The five boats based at St. Louis and St. Charles would draw 6.25 million admissions a year, the study forecasts. Gamblers would leave behind $281 million a year for the casino operators, plus another $75 million in non-gambling expenditures.
(snip) If Qualls is right about the 1.3 million additional room nights each year, hoteliers will be happy. That figure, he said, equals about 25 percent of the current capacity in St. Louis and St. Louis County.
Lumiere is, of course, a different animal than the original St. Louis-side boat -- but I'd be very, very wary of any implication that Lumiere is going to benefit anybody but its owners. I've been over on Main Street in St. Chuck a lot lately, and my perception is that the restaurants and shops over there don't give the casino a whole lot of credit for increasing demand for anything but the casino itself.
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''Gaming will fill the hotels. It will fill the restaurants. It will fill the convention center. . . . It will fill everything and make St. Louis the mecca of the middle west,'' he says.
That's amazing. To be fair, maybe it would have if no other place between Atlantic City and Vegas had openned a casino in the past two decades.
IMO - Lumiere will help the Landing to some degree. It doesn't seem like a bustling place currently and I don't think the casino will put places out of business. I for one look forward to checking out the casino and then eating/drinking on the Landing. Of course I may not be their typical patron.
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I look forward to nights on washington or perhaps the landing, and then stumbling into the casino with a crowd of friends for some late night cards... I assume Lumiere will have drinks until 3am? They should let the casino serve 24/7 IMO.
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bpe235 wrote:I look forward to nights on washington or perhaps the landing, and then stumbling into the casino with a crowd of friends for some late night cards... I assume Lumiere will have drinks until 3am? They should let the casino serve 24/7 IMO.
I agree...nothing says "Sorry about losing $1500" at 9am better than an ice cold Bud Light