urbanSTL

@ southsidepride. Again, nobody really knows what my stance is on this issue as most of my original post was deleted. I understand it happens but no one can truly go by the one paragraph that was left. I guess someone could get the gist or assume...but still. I probably agree more with Innov8ion than it seems in the rubble of confusion but may have a difference on some of the issues such as boycotting out of fear. I already battled this out with him and most certainly don't want to do it again...I get his point it's just not how I would handle the situation. Like I said in my post that was deleted I was raised in U.City and hung out in the Loop and used to be one of the kids that would roam in packs in the early '80s. Perhaps I feel I understand why kids feel the need to hang out like that from my own experiences with home-life, etc. I do not condone bad public behavior but also don't feel like anyone can really dictate or parent bad behavior. If there was crimes going on that would be a different story. If you have a group of 50 people I don't care how old or what their background is there most likely will be at least one bad seed in the mix. I guess it just bothered me that people would stop going there because of this, I find it counter productive and exactly what everyone hopes won't happen. I do think a lot of white people would be equally uncomfortable at an organized rap concert that caters to a mainly black audience. I do think it would be less scary for rich white people to go to the Loop if the gang of unruly teens were also white. I do think the race issue has a lot at hand here...there I said it... brought up the race card. Just my opinion which really doesn't mean much in solving the problem. I just personally would never let a group of anyone scare me away or ruin my good time.

I'm kind of leaning towards the idea of actually giving out citations for disorderly public conduct...only to those who are being disorderly. That's a valid legal no-no. Walking down the street with your friends isn't a valid legal no-no from what I know. Cops can be quite easy going sometimes, they would really have to write this citations and follow through with them. I also like the idea of a couple of mounted cops patrolling the area, they can see what's going on better and have more of a presence. The U.City police department probably doesn't have enough cops to walk the beat and they also get swallowed up in crowds. Anyhow, not sure if that is the solution but it's the best I can come up with right now.

I am right now listening to a mob of adults in the building next to mine having a party with their windows open being very loud, disorderly, lewd, crude...as I do every weekend downtown.

^It is also a Friday night...and unless they are hanging out the window throwing things at you and yelling aggressive profanities directly at you asking you why you are looking at them, I think the correlation is slim to none on this one.

Being a teenager is one thing. Being a teenager that is going somewhere with the explicit idea of causing trouble is another.

Cursing and being lewd is one thing. Cursing and being lewd directly to another person with the aim of agitating or intimidating is another thing.

The distinction (and thus the problem) with the issues in the loop is the added goal of "intimidation" and "validating masculinity via violence and obnoxiousness" for people with no respectable male role models.

Edit: Or female role models (don't want to be mysogynistic here).

We are also talking about weekend nights in the Loop. A negative atmosphere is a negative atmosphere whether someone is directly yelling at me or not, they're talking to someone like that and we are all subjected to it because we can all hear them. Besides that, I surely can't be the only person who has been harassed by a group of bar revelers while walking down the streets downtown. I wouldn't think the comparison would go over well here but I'm trying to make a point that lewd, crude, negative, obnoxious behavior runs rampant in other frequently visited areas of the city as well.

I was also a teenager who occasionally made the trek from St. Charles to the Loop in the late 80's--complete with my long trenchcoat and Sex Pistols t-shirt.

Let me say I have NO problem with teenagers of any color being in the Loop.

If someone is offended by the mere sight of young people in groups they probably shouldn't go to such a public place like the Loop. Maybe Plaza Frontenac is more their speed.

That being said there should be ZERO TOLERANCE for the kind of harassment and abuse that Alex and others have described.

99% of the time there is a definite distinguishable line between the borderline violence he described and "kids being kids".

So let's distinguish that line and separate the wheat from the chaff!

I think some of you don't understand what is going on in the Loop. Or you don't want to understand since you already have your preconceived notion.

So was anyone in the Loop last? How was is?

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... f6878.html

UNIVERSITY CITY • No one will ever know if it was all the extra police officers -- or the rain.
But bands of marauding teens did not harrass unsuspecting visitors in the Delmar Loop last night. In fact, there were very few youth in the city-county entertainment district at all.
Not that those few blocks on Delmar Boulevard were empty. Even with the cold snap, the thunderstorms and the drizzle, crowds packed several Loop restaurants and theaters.
Police, too, filled the streets. They parked crusiers on nearly every corner. They meandered up and down the boulevard in packs of two, four and six. St. Louis city police even brought their 20-foot-long mobile Incident Command Center to a stop at the Shell gas station on the corner of Delmar and Skinker boulevards. Its lights flashed all night long.
Police leaders said their only goal was to be visible. Visitors were often just puzzled.
"I didn't know that was a problem," said Washington University student Mike Tozier, 20, from Waterville, Maine, who said the worst he's seen in the Loop is the occasional drug pusher.
Fellow student Alex Tolkin, 20, from Newton, Mass., agreed.
"I feel like St. Louis Police," he said, "have more pressing issues."

Sounds like a short-sighted show of force was the answer. I hope they have some longer term stuff in mind as well.

Fellow student Alex Tolkin, 20, from Newton, Mass., agreed.
"I feel like St. Louis Police," he said, "have more pressing issues."


Who cares about this p****'s feelings? Rowdy teens, who last week injured a STL city police officer, are a pressing issue, you dumb twat. This coming from a Wash U student, students that have been mugged and assaulted by the same types of people causing problems in the Loop.

The police have more "pressing issues" than public safety?

Tuff-Turf - I think we have a misunderstanding here. I don't know who's end it is on, but we are deff not on the same page. Cursing and being drunk/rowdy are one thing (as in downtown and other places where yes, this does come with the territory). What we are talking about here is active intimidation plays by groups of teens that have the aim of disrupting the experience and character of a place for some sort of misguided sense of personal validation.

Groups of teens/young adults are fine from everyone's point of view here, that is not what we are talking about. I don't care if a punk rock teen in a hot topic tee is sitting on the street in the loop. I do care if that punk teen gets in my face as I walk by, calls me a b**** and yells in my face to try to impress others.

(I am using the punk teen example here, which from the sounds of it is not the problem, but is what you and some others have cited from your pasts as examples. From the sounds of it, this is a black problem. This is not a race inspired comment, it is the reality of the problem here (once again, from what I have heard and read). Every example that I have heard (as well as the fine young man arrested for punching a policeman and subsequently arrested for murder) have been such. The problem is more as GoneCorporate has stated, young black men yelling "b**** a** n*****" and trying to start fights for no reason.)

Edit: Someone change the filter here? The A word and the N word did not filter out on their own

Edit X2: I am speaking about something I do not really have any direct experience with(I have not had problems in the loop). If I am misunderstanding the topic here someone please let me know and my apologies if this is the case.

I understand what the issue is. My point is that I personally have had people get in my face and call me names and try to get me riled up downtown as well (and for no reason...just because I happen to walk by and they want to show how macho they are to their friends also)...I can't be the only one who has experienced this and judging by the noise and fights I hear out my window downtown almost every night I know I'm not. They are just usually white, drunk,male adults doing the harassing. If I allowed myself to be too intimidated to visit a neighborhood, the guys dt would intimidate me just as much as the kids in the loop. But they don't and they won't.

^Fair enough. I can definitely see how that could happen downtown on late nights on weekends.

My point, I guess, is that the loop is not downtown, does not have the same bar scene, is more family/retail oriented, and the issues are not steming from alcohol (not that this is a good excuse), but rather a specific attempt to disrupt area.

Nobody expects, or wants, people to be too intimidated as to not go somewhere. But a lot of people are justifiably intimidated for not wanting to be around big groups of black teens that are causing sh*t. The family being jumped at the Metro station is reason enough. Fact is, this is St. Louis, we're roughly 50% black and probably 95-98% of crime occurrs in the black neighborhoods and involves black suspects, and usually black victims. I hope people aren't judging all blacks, but the facts are it's blacks doing most of the crazy and criminal sh*t in STL and U City. If I was out in Jeffco, I'd be concerned about a group of white hicks, because poor trailer park whites tend to have the same mindset as poor ghetto blacks. I'm white and I'd be more afraid of a group of white neo-nazis or bikers then a group of black Rollin' 60 crips, but I'd gladly toss a stick of dynamite at all of them.

I really do understand. I'm glad some are admitting it is a race issue with them. I appreciate you understanding where I'm coming from as well. I guess a lot of it could be where one was raised and the comfort level they have. Again, I hope the issue is resolved quickly so EVERYONE can enjoy the Loop.

Newstl2020...no punk rocker I know would be caught dead in a Hot Topix t-shirt!! Just razzing you. : )

STL88 wrote:Who cares about this p****'s feelings? Rowdy teens, who last week injured a STL city police officer, are a pressing issue, you dumb twat.

Is this language really necessary? I understand your point: there's been harassment and assault, it's not acceptable, and we need the police to take care of it, but your response is over-the-top and offensive, and more likely to put people off than convince them of your (in my view, valid) point.

@rbeedee...it's almost as bad as the language heard in the Loop. I bet the kid he is talking about would also find it quite provoking and may even be a bit intimidated! : )

Stl88 is right. Just straight busting factoids. I think the younger generation doesn't really play the politically correct game as much as the older baby boomer crowd or people indoctrinated into a pc thought process. Everyone is equal and gets equal respect but there are some unavoidable facts out there. I'm strangely optimistic.