First, you're just citing someone's opinion. Also, that opinion doesn't pertain to what you said, which was: "I guarantee 99% of these kids didn't pay the fare."the central scrutinizer wrote:Alex Ihnen wrote:That's just plain false. You don't know what you're talking about.the central scrutinizer wrote:It would be easy to solve if Metrolink enforced fares. I guarantee 99% of these kids didn't pay the fare. If you can't get on the train without a ticket, you can't get to the Loop.Carol Crudden, who has owned and operated the Ziezo boutique since 1982, echoed Dawson's lament.
"These kids are disrespectful and rude," Crudden said. "They don't buy anything. They just ruin the experience for people who do come here to shop and support the Loop."
Crudden said MetroLink shared some responsibility for the problem.
"The kids causing these problems are not from University City. They're coming down here on the MetroLink," she said. "I don't know what the solution would be, but I think it has to be acknowledged that MetroLink is shipping these kids to the Loop."
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I never said people should act like they're on steroids and play rugby. But in situations where there could be issues it's better to not act like a scared nerd in gym class. I don't know how I can help people raise their children better, but not acting like an easy victim or that I feel uncomfortable has worked for me in the past. If you're saying people shouldn't be in that situation then I agree. This is something the police will address.Yeah, that's what we need to do. Instead of attempting to have a community raise children in a way that doesn't promote them developing fear sensing sixth senses like pit bulls the rest of the civilized world should just flush itself down the shitter and become the big ape in the group. Great logic Doug.
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Figure that one out, and you solve the answer to 99% of your socio-economic philosophies that you speak of here on this forum. It begins and ends with parenting. I think you may have just had a breakthroughI don't know how I can help people raise their children better
.I'll quote myself from last July 23 from the crime thread
This has been a big problem since '08 when notably a family was assaulted near the Metrolink station. Sure didn't help the Prop M vote that fall.
This happened right after the curfew enforcement started. The U City Police were pushing the teens into the City and they were all wound up. Ignoring them didn't work. In the City the curfew is later, 11 pm I think. I called the STL Police, but the teens had run off. Skinny little twerps wasn't much of a description to go on. The cop took me home. Ironic that I was the one in the cop car. We need the same curfew on each side, more police presence and coordination between U City and StL City Police.quincunx wrote:Well you're right about the walking alone part. I was assaulted by one of the bands of black teens right in front of the OCL building tonight not 100 feet from a bunch of patrons at Pi. I was heading east and they ran up from behind. I turned around but couldn't do much at that point. Three or four of them made contact. Luckily they missed my teeth and didn't go for my valuables. I guess they just wanted to hit someone. f***ing little bastards.
This has been a big problem since '08 when notably a family was assaulted near the Metrolink station. Sure didn't help the Prop M vote that fall.
Apparently born the day after you if you think shutting down Metrolink to minors is an actual answer for St. Louis to this problem...(They might need to get to, I don't know, work?)jcity wrote:"wider sidewalks or fencing around sidewalk diners as someone else has mentioned..."
are you serious? were you born yesterday? do you rally think "wider sidewalks" would be the solution here?...The metro should be off limits to minors on weekends after 6:00.
...Yes, increased police presence is part of the answer, obviously, AND I maintain wider sidewalks would absolutely help...Not every situation that causes the 'uncomfortable' feelings for Loop patrons stems from evil, violent-minded youth trying to pick a fight...SOMETIMES it stems from differences in walking pace between different groups, room to walk and all of the stereotyping that can go into that scenario...I'm not defending the violence, I'm saying the fear of violence can sometimes be irrational, unfounded and caused by prejudging an individual based on experiences with others who happen to look like him or her...
...And yes, philosophically, all of our soulutions, the external fixes, are expensive and don't get at the real problem which is an internal, moral one...A problem the gov't and virtual strangers are not very good at fixing...
"Not every situation that causes the 'uncomfortable' feelings for Loop patrons stems from evil, violent-minded youth trying to pick a fight..."
HAHAHAA, maybe 99% of the time. Then where are the business owners "uncomfortable" feelings coming from? The majority of these teens are good people i'm sure, but let's just look at the evidence. when they show up in mob style formation and there are 14 cop cars chasing everyone around, people will simply vote with their feet and not return. I honestly don't understand why putting your head in the sand about this issue is somehow a solution. yes, white people shouldn't freak out and not return, but that seems to be what often happens. and give me a break Doug, the idea that you will scold or admonish these teens to be on their best behavior is beyond hilarious. please tell me when you will do this and i will be there to witness it! I am honestly going to go down there tomorrow night to see what it's like.
HAHAHAA, maybe 99% of the time. Then where are the business owners "uncomfortable" feelings coming from? The majority of these teens are good people i'm sure, but let's just look at the evidence. when they show up in mob style formation and there are 14 cop cars chasing everyone around, people will simply vote with their feet and not return. I honestly don't understand why putting your head in the sand about this issue is somehow a solution. yes, white people shouldn't freak out and not return, but that seems to be what often happens. and give me a break Doug, the idea that you will scold or admonish these teens to be on their best behavior is beyond hilarious. please tell me when you will do this and i will be there to witness it! I am honestly going to go down there tomorrow night to see what it's like.
Wider sidewalks would be good as the sidewalks are crowded as they stand. But this would take away on street parking.
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*CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP CLAP* Although I doubt you’ll actually lose any skin off your knuckles on these mopes; being 6’5” myself, I know from experience that these kids’ll back off if actually challenged or scared of actual repercussions. Still, welcome home and good hunting.newstl2020 wrote:I'm about 6'3 230. I'll be in town Easter weekend. Planning on grabbing a few drinks in the loop during my stay. If anyone acts like a stupid little jack*ss to me while I am there I am responding with "Yes, I am looking at you because you are acting like a little irresponsible a**hole" and punching them in the head.
That's how I roll in my city.
Appeasement. That strategy didn’t work for Chamberlain, and it won’t work now.doug wrote:Wider sidewalks would be good as the sidewalks are crowded as they stand. But this would take away on street parking.
“That poor 15-year-old just doesn’t have enough sidewalk to loiter on this Friday night outside of the bar. Why doesn’t University City give this child more sidewalk as he jumps out at people shouting “f*ck you ya b**** ass n****”?”
“Is that because of racism, which I know so much about because I’m a white male who lives in Canada?”
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Now that's the Gone Corporate I've come to know and love!
I think the term we're looking for is "Oh, snap!"gone corporate wrote:Appeasement. That strategy didn’t work for Chamberlain, and it won’t work now.doug wrote:Wider sidewalks would be good as the sidewalks are crowded as they stand. But this would take away on street parking.
“That poor 15-year-old just doesn’t have enough sidewalk to loiter on this Friday night outside of the bar. Why doesn’t University City give this child more sidewalk as he jumps out at people shouting “f*ck you ya b**** ass n****”?”
“Is that because of racism, which I know so much about because I’m a white male who lives in Canada?”
I don't know if I, or anyone has the perfect remedy, I would start by giving the kids a place to go. When I was younger we would get a group of 100+, find an abandoned house or field and have a party and just hang out. We weren't trying to "take over" something, or raise hell, we just wanted to loiter, talk, and relax. Some kids have skate parks, some kids have libraries, some have gyms, sometimes they just need a place to meet without being hassled. Communication is a huge part in creating something that works, that's where I would start.Alex Ihnen wrote:^ So what's "the remedy"? It seems that some see the behavior discussed here as no big deal - perhaps people should just deal with it. If you don't like it, then don't go to the Loop?
I'm not so sure about this. I grew up in small town Iowa w/ virtually nothing to do. We found things to do that didn't involve tearing up the town. Also, there are plenty of parks, libraries, and other activities throughout St. Louis so I don't quite get this stance. Perhaps you could elaborate.TheRemedy wrote:I don't know if I, or anyone has the perfect remedy, I would start by giving the kids a place to go. When I was younger we would get a group of 100+, find an abandoned house or field and have a party and just hang out. We weren't trying to "take over" something, or raise hell, we just wanted to loiter, talk, and relax. Some kids have skate parks, some kids have libraries, some have gyms, sometimes they just need a place to meet without being hassled. Communication is a huge part in creating something that works, that's where I would start.Alex Ihnen wrote:^ So what's "the remedy"? It seems that some see the behavior discussed here as no big deal - perhaps people should just deal with it. If you don't like it, then don't go to the Loop?
The problem is that kids are swarming through the Loop like locusts and the cops don't seem to be doing much about the poor behavior. No matter the color distribution in a mob, mobs are unpredictable and typically volatile. Also, cops pepper spraying the kids to get them to disperse probably wouldn't be good PR.
How many citations are the cops giving to the unruly kids out there? Not enough, it seems. If the cops crack down on the shenanigans seriously, I guarantee you the sh*t will stop. The curfew will only exacerbate the problem as it punishes the innocent. It's time to start the tough love and stop the counterproductive curfew....
Would love to see a UCity cop do an IAMA on this topic.
I'm sorry if I sound harsh and I don't mean to personally attack anyone but I'm quite passionate about this subject as I am one of the few poor artist types left downtown and I really feel I don't belong anymore. From my own experiences, I just don't think you guys are ready for diversity and acceptance as much as you preach...not all of you, but a "mob" of you.
Mod edit: Sorry, accidentally edited your post and removed some paragraphs while trying to quote you for mine.
Mod edit: Sorry, accidentally edited your post and removed some paragraphs while trying to quote you for mine.
And for whatever it's worth...there was "mobs" of black kids roaming the desolate Loop right alongside us punks in the 80's. Nothing new...safer now I'm positive.
Embracing diversity and properly addressing negative behavior aren't mutually exclusive. Why do you excuse the many instances of sh*t behavior that's damaging the Loop? Can't wait until you're a parent, man. Perhaps you'll change your tune about accountability unless you're gonna be one of "those" parents that let your kids walk all over you.tuff-turf wrote: I'm sorry if I sound harsh and I don't mean to personally attack anyone but I'm quite passionate about this subject as I am one of the few poor artist types left downtown and I really feel I don't belong anymore. From my own experiences, I just don't think you guys are ready for diversity and acceptance as much as you preach...not all of you, but a "mob" of you.
And for whatever it's worth...there was "mobs" of black kids roaming the desolate Loop right alongside us punks in the 80's. Nothing new...safer now I'm positive.
But not "mobs" in the numbers we see now. Trust me, my lily white suburban behind was hanging out in the Delmar Loop probably before Doug was even born. And what's been occuring on the weekends in the last year is very different than the desolate 80's.tuff-turf wrote:And for whatever it's worth...there was "mobs" of black kids roaming the desolate Loop right alongside us punks in the 80's. Nothing new...safer now I'm positive.
There was "mobs" in the Loop as well as downtown back then. Maybe not every weekend in the Loop but willy nilly. Believe me us scary, underaged drinking, punk rock kids had to actually call the cops from pay phones a couple of times for being chased down the street with baseball bats and such. Kind of funny in retrospect.
@ innov8ion. I never once EXCUSED the negative behavior in the Loop or anywhere else. Just giving my own opinion thoughts and experiences. I'm only saying it's time to stop being scared. It's a little hard to not blame fear either since it's self manifested and and replicates itself and negativity in social situations. And, I will never be a parent...thanks for that one! What the heck is that about? Weird.
You do excuse it as you don't see anything inherently wrong with mobs. The mobs have been causing problems as has been evidenced. Yet you refuse to acknowledge this and seem to absolve the sh*t disturbers of all responsibility.tuff-turf wrote:@ innov8ion. I never once EXCUSED the negative behavior in the Loop or anywhere else. Just giving my own opinion thoughts and experiences. I'm only saying it's time to stop being scared. It's a little hard to not blame fear either since it's self manifested and and replicates itself and negativity in social situations. And, I will never be a parent...thanks for that one! What the heck is that about? Weird.
And it's not about being scared. Who wants to subject themselves, their friends and family to the bullsh*t that's happening in the Loop. Have you heard what's been going on? If the cops and politicians don't effectively deal with the problem, the Loop's gonna go downhill. Simple as that.
And if you still see no problem, how about I pepper spray you while eating dinner on the patio sometime like happened to me in the Loop last summer. Bet that might change your tune.
So yeah, what's your solution? A little kumbaya by the campfire?
I guess you can have no opinion unless you're a parent hunh? If I was a parent I would probably be very strict actually...I do learn from my experiences. I also would definitely teach my kids not to judge others by the cover of the book and to live and let live. That didn't come out right but you know what I mean. Don't forget, I did say I think there needs to be some real enforcement put into place. I'm a small business owner myself and I totally understand the need for rich people spending money. I just don't care for the judgmental tones...so yes, I turned it back to the rich yuppies downtown to make a piont. Human nature, it's a funny thing.
No one's judging anything except sh*t behavior. "Live and let live" doesn't mean you accept it. It means you ***** deal with it.tuff-turf wrote:I guess you can have no opinion unless you're a parent hunh? If I was a parent I would probably be very strict actually...I do learn from my experiences. I also would definitely teach my kids not to judge others by the cover of the book and to live and let live. That didn't come out right but you know what I mean. Don't forget, I did say I think there needs to be some real enforcement put into place. I'm a small business owner myself and I totally understand the need for rich people spending money. I just don't care for the judgmental tones...so yes, I turned it back to the rich yuppies downtown to make a piont. Human nature, it's a funny thing.
Again, I never said there wasn't a problem. I thought the pepper spray came from someone who was trying to disperse the "mob." Sorry if I was wrong. I'm just not afraid of people no matter how many unless I truly, truly, truly have to be. It's worked for me all my life and I will stick to what works for me. I understand listening to kids cuss in public isn't pleasant and I've stated something needs to be done...what more can I say?
I wasn't pepper sprayed directly but I was eating right across from the mob and it wafted over, ruining dinner. It's not so fun when your mucous membranes are under attack, ya know?tuff-turf wrote:Again, I never said there wasn't a problem. I thought the pepper spray came from someone who was trying to disperse the "mob." Sorry if I was wrong. I'm just not afraid of people no matter how many unless I truly, truly, truly have to be. It's worked for me all my life and I will stick to what works for me. I understand listening to kids cuss in public isn't pleasant and I've stated something needs to be done...what more can I say?
Again, it's not about being afraid. It's about subjecting yourself, your friends, and family to sh*t. Why do it if UCity isn't going to deal with the problem effectively? And why do you judge those that care?