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PostApr 12, 2011#51

I'll throw this out there: My brother's girlfriend is a junior high teacher. They met in NYC and when my brother got a job in STL, she moved here also. She taught in Harlem, near the intersection where the previous poster's GF is from. When she moved to STL, she taught at the now-defunct charter school housed in the old St. Anthony's school at Grand and Meramec.

She quit after one year and got a job in the Mehlville scool district. Why? Because, according to her, the African-American kids in STL were easily 10 times worse than those she taught in Harlem. She said the parents of the kids in Harlem were more visible, more active. The kids respected education more. (and my bro's GF is a card-carrying bleeding-heart liberal)

We have a major issue with SOME of the African-American population in this metro area. It's disgusting and it's violent. And people like me, with 2 young kids, are so turned off by all this BS that I just assume walk away. And this is coming from a guy who lived in the city for 5 years.

Like another previous poster said, South Grand and even downtown are much better alternatives.

The parents of some of these kids, when sober, shoud be ashamed of themselves.
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PostApr 12, 2011#52

Do the U-City police ever just walk the sidewalks during weekend evenings. I've seen plenty of patrol cars, but never anyone just walking a beat. I would think a cop on the sidewalk could more easily dissuade bad behavior by just his or her presence.
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PostApr 12, 2011#53

I think if it's obvious these teenagers aren't patronizing any of the businesses than they should have to move along. There's plenty of parks in this city to hang out at. And adults are the majority of people spending money in the Loop, and the businesses owners are the ones making the Loop what it is, so if both of those groups are complaining then what they request should be catered too. My friends and I have frequented the Loop since we were 16-17, we're all 22 now. We eat there, go to the shops and buy stuff, get tattoos, see movies at the Tivoli and go to the Pageant. Plenty of teens there do spend money. But there is no reason to allow large groups that are acting uncivilized and hurting business. Large groups of black kids in this city tend to come from lower income, crime infested neighborhoods and plenty of them bring the hood attitude and bravado with them wherever they go. Obviously you're not going to notice a black kid who isn't acting stereotypical and ghetto. When you see a group of 20 black kids being loud and starting sh*t with everybody, that's what you notice, and it ticks you off big time. Solution? Make it a point to target rowdy people of both colors so no one can claim racism.
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PostApr 12, 2011#54

It doesn't matter where they come from. N City, No CO, City, U City. It also doesn't matter how they get there, LInk, Bus, personal auto, live nearby etc. All that matters is we have a problem and it needs to be resolved.

We have maybe 4 solid commercial corridors left, Wash Ave, Loop, So Grand, and maybe Cherokee. We need to preserve them at all costs.
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PostApr 12, 2011#55

In case you're wondering if the issue is being taken seriously:

http://universitycity.patch.com/article ... op-problem
Issues with young people behaving badly in the Loop on weekends took center stage at two meetings on Tuesday.

Tuesday morning, Loop business owners packed a room in Blueberry Hill for the the Loop Special Business District meeting. Also in attendance were the University City mayor, police chief and city manager, along with councilmembers Terry Crow and Stephen Kraft.

The business owners expressed their frustration at the large groups of kids loitering and running amok in the Loop on weekends. Some of the incidents involve kids walking by outside diners and screaming in their face, stealing cellphones and general disruptive behavior.

"It's is a mob mentality," said Patrick Liberto, the owner of Meshuggah Café. "I grew up in New Orleans. I've been in a parade route. That's what this is. This is a parade route without a parade." He said the acting out is going to continue until business owners "own the community."

Bill Courtney, owner of Cheese-ology said he had a very stressful weekend policing the crowds around his restaurant. "I spent the vast majority of Saturday night out in front of my store protecting my guests."

"I stood out there putting my body in between the kids and my patrons." He said when a fight broke out across the street from his restaurant patrons took shelter in his establishment. He said the current weekend atmosphere is not safe.
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PostApr 12, 2011#56

Glad it's being taken seriously and is resolved. Hopefully other parts don't experience this.
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PostApr 13, 2011#57

RobbyD wrote:The Loop needs wider sidewalks...Take out the parking lane and give groups wider berth around sidewalk diners and window shoppers...

Also plain clothed private security paid for by the businesses themselves...Generally it is the same small collection of people that cause problems...Not always, but if the repeat idiots can be identified and given a message or prosecuted, it would help...

And if being questioned by police gets your goat, all I can say is be polite and take one for the team...You might be the apple of your momma's eye, but it's a big, bad world out there and, believe or not, you're a part of it...

ehhh there's a difference between being questioned and being made to feel not wanted. But it looks like this'll be resolved soon, they'll run off a few patrons in the process but there should be a net gain in business once people feel comfortable again.
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PostApr 13, 2011#58

Do the U-City police ever just walk the sidewalks during weekend evenings. I've seen plenty of patrol cars, but never anyone just walking a beat.
They do and according to the news they will be doing it more often. There's already a 9PM curfew. They need to enforce it. Hopefully they do it in a fair manner and don't hassle everyone who's an African American in a group. Again this does happen. It's not hard to tell who could be underage.

The large parking lot behind Cicero's isn't going anywhere and it shouldn't. It is one of the key reasons this area is popular and why we haven't seen any demolitions for parking. Maybe more people will eventually park further eastward on Delmar once the trolley is implemented. Then perhaps parts of it could be developed.

I have noticed more youths on Delmar but not to the degree that people describe. Perhaps it has gotten worse while I was gone. Regardless it will be interesting to see how this works out this weekend. I will be showing the bar owners my support for their establishments.
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PostApr 13, 2011#59

doug wrote:I have noticed more youths on Delmar but not to the degree that people describe. Perhaps it has gotten worse while I was gone. Regardless it will be interesting to see how this works out this weekend. I will be showing the bar owners my support for their establishments.
Yes it has gotten much worse in the last year. I don't live far away and usually go to the Loop every other weekend. I'd say it was last May or June when a switch got flipped and the crowds of kids started flocking to The Loop on the weekend.

-Two weeks ago I went to Club Fitness on Saturday around 7pm. From the second floor I could easily see things get busier and busier on the street until I finished around 8:30. Lots of teenagers not really doing a whole lot except walking around or gathering.

-Last Friday we went to dinner at Cheesology around 9pm. Parking was difficult but that was the least of the problem. Walking a block and a half from where we parked was a complete hassle as groups of 10, 15 or 20 kids would block the entire sidewalk. And nicely saying "excuse me" did little in the way of gaining a path. Twice we had to step out into Delmar to get around them.
When we got in Cheesology we were the only customers at around 8:30. The employees were clearly on edge, watching the groups go by. The people at Cheesology were especially nice to us by giving us extra bread sticks, a very healthy pour of wine for my wife as well as an extra beer for me.
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PostApr 13, 2011#60

This can be fixed and needs to be fixed...I hope the Loop Mayor takes a position (which I'm sure he has to teh right people) and helps direct the solution (which I'm sure he's willing to do)...

I would think some type of cooperation between St. Louis' finest and the U City police is needed...The cops need to be perceived as executing an organized and professional effort to allow everyone a pleasant evening...The presence of the men and women in blue should result in near immediate calm and order...These laws are not hard to follow...
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PostApr 13, 2011#61

a bigger police presence is welcomed but its important not to exchange one form of intimidation for another. Delmar has long been the most diverse commercial district in the region. I'm all for more security, its needed, but I would hate to see the loop become homogenized. Its running the risk of becoming that already with the unruly crowds so something definitely needs to be done. But Like Doug said, hopefully they do it in a fair manner and the loop can continue to thrive not only as a commercial district but as a melting pot for St. Louis. If intimidation is to be the norm whether its violent teens or tough guy cops, then the loop will lose its soul. I was born in U-City, one block from the loop, and it was there I first began discovering St. Louis when I returned home.
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PostApr 13, 2011#62

Reponse is doubling number of officers:

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2011/04/13/ ... lmar-loop/

Some choice quotes in this link including blaming the Metrolink and social media. Yep, that's the problem! At least the media coverage and increased police presence should have some impact on the violence. I'm all for teens hanging out and being teens...but when you get these super large groups, the mob mentality takes control.
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PostApr 13, 2011#63

Suggesting the Delmar MetroLink station close early is the most unfair and most unrealistic idea I've heard in response to this issue. You can't just arbitrarily shut down PUBLIC TRANSIT- thousands of people depend on the train and the bus service that radiates from the station at all hours. I have no doubt that the leaders and stakeholders in the Loop will take appropriate action to restore and maintain a sense of safety in the district, and the Loop will remain a destination for anyone looking for big city action and a hustle bustle atmosphere that is all too rare in many other neighborhoods.

I think that people who let the media scare them into avoiding The Loop are probably the same ones who believe that St. Louis is the most dangerous city because they "heard it on the news." The Loop is still a great neighborhood and I am even more committed spending time and money there in light of the recent bad press. So NextSTLers-- let's start a counter-movement and converge on the Loop. Soon the news will be reporting on the hordes of urban nerds with cameras taking over the sidewalks, and the unruly teens will be scared to come!
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PostApr 13, 2011#64

stlgasm wrote:hordes of urban nerds with cameras taking over the sidewalks
:lol:
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PostApr 13, 2011#65

Shutting down Metrolink? Yeah that kinda defeats the purpose of a trolley and undermines the Moonrise Hotel. People are idiots.

And nicely saying "excuse me" did little in the way of gaining a path. Twice we had to step out into Delmar to get around them.

So then walk through them? Did they threaten you or were you scared to walk between them? Try walking through a group of teens "blocking the sidewalk" in I don't know Peabody Darst Webbe. If you act like a target then you might be one. If you act like you belong chances are nothing will happen. People can tell by body language if they think you are feeling uncomfortable due to their presence.

I don't know. Teens on a sidewalk and teens fighting are two different things in my book. If people aren't causing problems before the curfew then they shouldn't be treated like criminals. If threaten people then the law should take action.
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PostApr 13, 2011#66

Doug - I really get what you're saying. However, the reality is that one or two bad experiences shapes one's expectations. Walking home in FPSE yesterday a half-dozen kids on bicycles where riding past me and literally without any provocation, without me being in their way, and with barely a glance up from my phone, one of them rode towards me and yelled, "WHAT THE ***** YOU LOOKING AT b****?!?! WHAT THE ***** YOU LOOKING AT?!?!" This was one block from my home. This and many other incidents lead me to sometimes feel uncomfortable in situations that present a conflict, such as having ask repeatedly for a group of kids to move so I can simply walk down a sidewalk. I am quickly developing zero tolerance for behavior such as that.
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PostApr 13, 2011#67

doug wrote:Shutting down Metrolink? Yeah that kinda defeats the purpose of a trolley and undermines the Moonrise Hotel. People are idiots.

And nicely saying "excuse me" did little in the way of gaining a path. Twice we had to step out into Delmar to get around them.

So then walk through them? Did they threaten you or were you scared to walk between them? Try walking through a group of teens "blocking the sidewalk" in I don't know Peabody Darst Webbe. If you act like a target then you might be one. If you act like you belong chances are nothing will happen. People can tell by body language if they think you are feeling uncomfortable due to their presence.

I don't know. Teens on a sidewalk and teens fighting are two different things in my book. If people aren't causing problems before the curfew then they shouldn't be treated like criminals. If threaten people then the law should take action.
Doug, I just know that you are not that stupid. The point of all those kids taking over the Loop it to, you guessed it, take over the Loop. It's a power play and you know it.
In the bigger picture it's really a shame that those kids don't feel empowered in a less confrontational way.
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PostApr 13, 2011#68

ttricamo wrote:I did just re-watch the video. One could make the argument the only "public" space for these kids are the sidewalks and the Metrolink stop and 50-100 kids occupying the street corners and the Metro link could be a disturbance, especially if they're rowdy.

It would be interesting to know where these kids are from. If North City, where? Did they take the Metrolink to get to the Loop? Do they live north of Delmar? Why don't they want to hang out on street corners in their own (possibly urban) neighborhoods.

This could be another thread topic but does anyone on the forum have teenage kids? Where do they hang on the weekends? Better yet, what percentage of "new" urban dwellers have teens in the City? I would imagine the City is pretty unfriendly for kids of this age, especially if they're not driving.
It would be easy to solve if Metrolink enforced fares. I guarantee 99% of these kids didn't pay the fare. If you can't get on the train without a ticket, you can't get to the Loop.
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PostApr 13, 2011#69

^ and that's the point. just stating we need to get the kids of the street is not the root cause corrective action. Peel back the onion. What's driving the behavior? Why are they there? Proactive vs reactive.
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PostApr 13, 2011#70

ttricamo wrote:^ and that's the point. just stating we need to get the kids of the street is not the root cause corrective action. Peel back the onion. What's driving the behavior? Why are they there? Proactive vs reactive.
I have no idea why they are there. It's really not our job to find out. If they're causing problems, get rid of them.
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PostApr 13, 2011#71

doug wrote:So then walk through them? Did they threaten you or were you scared to walk between them? Try walking through a group of teens "blocking the sidewalk" in I don't know Peabody Darst Webbe. If you act like a target then you might be one. If you act like you belong chances are nothing will happen. People can tell by body language if they think you are feeling uncomfortable due to their presence.
Ah yes, the power structure in the urban jungle. You may as well be describing signs of dominance amongst animal species. I wish we had a strong black leader to look at these kids and simply say, "you should be ashamed of yourself for acting that way. Please go make something better for yourself than posturing on this street corner."

Everyone should read the Autobiography of Malcolm X to gain some perspective on this topic.
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PostApr 13, 2011#72

the central scrutinizer wrote:It would be easy to solve if Metrolink enforced fares. I guarantee 99% of these kids didn't pay the fare. If you can't get on the train without a ticket, you can't get to the Loop.
That's just plain false. You don't know what you're talking about.
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PostApr 13, 2011#73

I don't quite understand why Metrolink is getting a lot of the blame here.
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PostApr 13, 2011#74

Shutting down the station isnt the answer. Maybe it's time to start a curfew for Metrolink. 18 and over to ride after 6pm
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PostApr 13, 2011#75

^ That's simple. The thought is that if those causing problems can't get to the Loop, then there are no more problems, and the assumption is that they're getting there via MetroLink.
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