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PostApr 12, 2011#26

This was happening for over a year and now it is getting a little "press".

We took in a movie last late summer with an out of town friend and when we came out at 11pm the Loop was no longer a place I would call "friendly". It was shameful vulgar and lewd language, yelling, screaming, trash all over, radio bass lowriders - kids hanging out of cars --- and it is NOT just teens. It was thug land. No repect for other patrons at all. That was the last time I was in the Loop, unfortunatley.

The problem here is not that these are most African Americans and not that they don't have a right to hang out somewhere. The problem is that you have not a few bad apples - a lot of them. You have teens and over 21's cruising and being disrespectful and trashing the place - from the streets to private property to retailers. I don't, as well as most people, want to hear the F bomb being sreamed over and over and the F Bomb is actually mild to some of the other lewd comments towards women from many of the guys cruising the streets.

The remedy... close early. I hate to say it - but if the loop businesses have to - close up at 7 or 8 on the weekends. Sad and loss of revenue. OR simply make curfew for anyone under 18 in the loop 7pm. Yes, it is a public area, but public areas, just like parks, have curfews to prevent these issues. Cops have NO control over these issues and it obviously shows that. Why isn't there these problems in other areas? Where do the other BLACK AND WHITE millions of teens in this city hang out? Not cruising the streets. The issue here (in the loop case), unfortunatley, is racial and generational. Parents should be involved here with their children... and this IS what happens when parenting is not there. The cops don't want to deal with this issue because it is racial and they don't want to "ruffle the feathers" period.

The only thing that can be done to remedy the problem is stricter penalties on curfews, earlier closing times, disturbance of peace laws and enforced.

NYC has a cop on every corner from Times Square to Harlem and points in between. They have some of the most strict regulations on loud noise (radio) control zones after hours and they WRITE tickets - period. If you have to have a cop on every corner for months and you square off areas for noice control - you do it. If you have to write a ticket for lewd public conduct - you do it. There wouldn't be this issue anymore BECAUSE the "kids" are not going to continue to congregate in the area.

Sorry I have to be just up front and frank about this.

PS: It would be one thing if these people were patronizing the area - but they are not - they are simply hanging and cruising. That is called loitering. What happened to that law?
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PostApr 12, 2011#27

Great post.
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PostApr 12, 2011#28

"The Remedy" is a sense of personal responsibility and pride.
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PostApr 12, 2011#29

TheRemedy wrote: The only disturbing scene was one small younger cop who was very aggressive with the kids, pushing them in the back trying to separate the groups. I wonder if he was the cop that was hit in the head?
I think I had a run in with that cop a few years ago. I was outside subway in between classes eating a tuna sandwich and people watching. After awhile,30-40 minutes or so, I start heading east back to class and I lock eyes with this short white very young looking cop. He looked intense, I wasn't sure he was looking at me so I looked over my shoulder for someone behind me, there was no one there. Finally, after what seemed like a minute of approaching this cop who's burning a hole through me, he stops me and asks me do you live around here? I tell him no, and he asks me my name, I tell him my name. I ask him what is this all about and he says I look like this guy they're looking for, I guess I fit the profile. But he tells me he knew I wasn't the guy when I told him my name. I asked him what did the guy do and he says he punched somebody. I laughed at the thought of me punching somebody and continued east. I didn't look back and I haven't been back to the loop since.

As for the groups of teens..20-30 is ridiculous, groups shouldn't be any larger than 7. What kind of conversation can you hold amongst 20 people? The kids in your stories just sound like average punks. I don't think a stricter curfew would hurt much, they don't sound like the bang bang type, they just don't have any manners. On the other hand, you shouldn't shy away from eye contact or appear vulnerable. Teens are mean people.

Of course, my theory is this is all the result of the death of the arcade. Home game consoles eventually did away with arcades which were the perfect place for teens to patronize and socially interact. 5 - 10 bucks in quarters, the right game and you could kill 3 hours, easy. The Tilt at Northwest Plaza was Vegas for me growing up. It meant something to be King of the Arcade.
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PostApr 12, 2011#30

The Loop needs wider sidewalks...Take out the parking lane and give groups wider berth around sidewalk diners and window shoppers...

Also plain clothed private security paid for by the businesses themselves...Generally it is the same small collection of people that cause problems...Not always, but if the repeat idiots can be identified and given a message or prosecuted, it would help...

And if being questioned by police gets your goat, all I can say is be polite and take one for the team...You might be the apple of your momma's eye, but it's a big, bad world out there and, believe or not, you're a part of it...
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PostApr 12, 2011#31

The suggestion that the Loop be closed or that people shouldn't go in protest sounds similar to what happened with Gaslight Square.

Thug land, eh? It seems the Lure patrons found somewhere else to go?

Not everyone grew up with middle class suburban values of how to be polite in public. This is a symptom of poverty and racial segregation. I suppose white people don't like seeing it acted out on the streets which used to be majority theirs?

If someone breaks the law then they should be arrested. If they are "thugs" with loud music, rowdy and black, well then that's legal. If you don't like it then don't go. I avoid Mardi Gras in Soulard as I don't want to associate with drunken Hoosiers. The same goes for Main Street in St. Charles. I will say that the Loop isn't going anywhere despite a few people being upset over loud teenagers. Has there been any shootings? If not then well maybe people should have some empathy for why a black kid from the North Side might tell some white middle aged guy what he thinks -- as there are few places in St. Louis where both races actually congregate in public.

Again the Galleria got too out of control with the "Metrolink crowd" so what did people expect? These issues are not going to simply disappear. They have been brewing under the surface in St. Louis for a long time.

The title of this thread, by the way, is rather curious. People loiter in neighborhoods all the time. This is how cities are different from suburban areas with no sidewalks. If I started a thread about the hipsters loitering on Cherokee Street there would be a backlash. Since when was loitering a crime? Some people call it hanging out on a public street -- which was legal the last time I checked.

As a matter of fact I am now definitely going to be on Delmar this Saturday in order to witness this chaos myself. I bet it hasn't changed from what it has always been. But who knows maybe some group of roving vagabonds will demand my wallet? I think I will record the number of times I am personally threatened with violence as testimony to this lawlessness.
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PostApr 12, 2011#32

I feel uncomfortable taking a young lady to the Loop for a show or bite to eat. There always seems to be large groups of rowdy youths looking for trouble. While not all black teens in the Loop are looking for trouble, there is definitely a serious gang/street element that will potentially mess it up for everybody if solutions are not found. People are honestly taking their business elsewhere. Many young professionals I know and other people that actually spend money (Black and White) are choosing Downtown and the Central West End for their outings now. The Loop is gaining the reputation of being a rowdy, youth, "urban" scene and unfortunately that doesn't translate to more patrons. We have to all realize that the Loop is a commercial district before anything else and if businesses want stricter curfews it will likely happen. IMHO there is no reason anyone under 18 should be in the Loop after dark anyway. Loitering should be banned and mobbing should be discouraged.
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PostApr 12, 2011#33

^Dude, come on. I take my four foot two Asian girlfriend to rougher streets all the time. No one gives us any trouble except for when one of the Vines brothers happens to holler. This has to be perception more than anything else. There has always been tons of police on Delmar. I've never seen any police walking the beat on Cherokee for example.

I am going to reiterate this is partially about some whites being uncomfortable in situations when they seem to be in the minority. But who knows maybe I'll get robbed on Saturday.
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PostApr 12, 2011#34

doug wrote:The suggestion that the Loop be closed or that people shouldn't go in protest sounds similar to what happened with Gaslight Square.

Thug land, eh? It seems the Lure patrons found somewhere else to go?

Not everyone grew up with middle class suburban values of how to be polite in public. This is a symptom of poverty and racial segregation. I suppose white people don't like seeing it acted out on the streets which used to be majority theirs?

If someone breaks the law then they should be arrested. If they are "thugs" with loud music, rowdy and black, well then that's legal. If you don't like it then don't go. I avoid Mardi Gras in Soulard as I don't want to associate with drunken Hoosiers. The same goes for Main Street in St. Charles. I will say that the Loop isn't going anywhere despite a few people being upset over loud teenagers. Has there been any shootings? If not then well maybe people should have some empathy for why a black kid from the North Side might tell some white middle aged guy what he thinks -- as there are few places in St. Louis where both races actually congregate in public.

Again the Galleria got too out of control with the "Metrolink crowd" so what did people expect? These issues are not going to simply disappear. They have been brewing under the surface in St. Louis for a long time.

The title of this thread, by the way, is rather curious. People loiter in neighborhoods all the time. This is how cities are different from suburban areas with no sidewalks. If I started a thread about the hipsters loitering on Cherokee Street there would be a backlash. Since when was loitering a crime? Some people call it hanging out on a public street -- which was legal the last time I checked.

As a matter of fact I am now definitely going to be on Delmar this Saturday in order to witness this chaos myself. I bet it hasn't changed from what it has always been. But who knows maybe some group of roving vagabonds will demand my wallet? I think I will record the number of times I am personally threatened with violence as testimony to this lawlessness.
While I share some of your sentiment regarding sidewalks being public and a lot whites getting scared about all these black folks (whether rowdy or not). We must not forget that Delmar is a commercial street. Meaning commerce must take place there. If people that spend money feel uncomfortable patronizing the Loop then it could possible become the next Gaslight Square. Therefore a smart local government (University City and The City of St. Louis) that depends on the tax revenue generated in this district must do what is necessary to preserve their economies. Especially if local business owners (real stakeholders in the Loop's success) are beginning to complain about the disruptive crowds.
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PostApr 12, 2011#35

Doug, I couldn't agree more with your notion that running away from issues brought up in this thread is not the answer...

But please don't excuse subhuman behavior by human beings because of economic status or cultural values... IMO that only further enslaves folks...

There is only one reason someone would deeply insult a total stranger...A desire to cause harm to an innocent person...evil (well it's certainly not good nor ambivalent)...A conscious decision by a free man or woman to commit an immoral act should never be excused because of one's neighborhood or momma...To do so reduces the foul-mouthed and mean individuals were talking about to men or women incapalble of making rational choices...Mmindless puppets reacting to emotions and "powerful" people is the exact opposite of what I think you are trying to say about these youngsters...That they indeed are free thinking, rational people capable of great things...Which is most certainly what I believe about them...

Socioeconomic status helps understand someone's situation, but never excuses or justifies bad behavior...I have met WAY too many law abiding, honest, good northsiders (and southsiders for that matter) to believe for one minute that the behavior of mean people is simply caused by an unfair world...
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PostApr 12, 2011#36

doug wrote:^Dude, come on. I take my four foot two Asian girlfriend to rougher streets all the time. No one gives us any trouble except for when one of the Vines brothers happens to holler. This has to be perception more than anything else. There has always been tons of police on Delmar. I've never seen any police walking the beat on Cherokee for example.

I am going to reiterate this is partially about some whites being uncomfortable in situations when they seem to be in the minority. But who knows maybe I'll get robbed on Saturday.
I actually took my girlfriend (who came in from out of town) to the Loop about a month ago. She loved it earlier in the night, but the later it got she began to get uncomfortable. Especially, when we were walking past the Shell station and some guy was hanging out the back window of a car screaming "Ima flirt girl, Ima flirt! Come here b****". She is from New York and said that kind of obsessive rowdy behavior would never be tolerated on a busy street like Delmar in NYC. The cops up there know about crowd control and people get tickets for that kind of rowdy behavior. 125th and Lexington in Harlem (my favorite intersection in NYC) is a lot more chill despite being packed like the Loop is on Saturday night 24/7/365. By the way I'm black from St. Louis and my girlfriend is black from Harlem.
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PostApr 12, 2011#37

downtown2007 wrote:
sirshankalot wrote:Just stop going to the Loop. Things will change fast.
Are you sure that's a solution? Wouldn't that contribute to the problem?
It solves my problem: Which is having an enjoyable evening out with my wife.
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PostApr 12, 2011#38

Robby: you hit the nail on the head. Great post. Period. I have friends and associates from all races, political views, sociology and economic backgrounds that do/ would not excuse the behaviors of this type of individuals because of their "backgrounds".

The worse and sad thing here is that this has been going on for almost a year now. The loop is getting bad press and a bad Rep.

One of the prior posts also indicated that there isn't any "nice" neighborhoods in the neighborhoods where these "kids" are from to hang in. But.... these "kids" are not patronizing businesses in the loop they are just cruising and loitering. Maybe we should open an area where they can cruise, trash, bang, be noisy, and distasteful somewhere else. Where their lewdness won't disrupt civility and business.

You may not want to go to an event like Mardi Gras. But it us an event that promotes a party atmosphere. Soulard doesn't have gangs of lewd "Hoosiers" disrupting neighborhood civility after hours. If they do - they ate arrested or cited in this district. I live here... don't tell me " otherwise" .
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PostApr 12, 2011#39

Don't know if you've toked a bowl of this newfangled chronic they have nowadays but, trust and believe, it will straight up scramble your eggs! So much so that one might make loud and mildy racist commments on a city street about baby strollers.

You gotta factor that in...
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PostApr 12, 2011#40

KMOX was running a pretty disturbing set of audio clips in its news this morning. I can't find the audio version, but here's the written version of the story.

I'm thinking this is some serious (stuff) if the Cicero's owner is complaining and the Fitz's owner is talking about cutting hours. Cicero's in particular was around back when the Loop was a lot dicier, or at least dicier than it was until recently. I've only spent recent weekday, but not weekend, evenings in the Loop, so I haven't witnessed anything directly, although I have seen some less severe daytime harassment at the gas station at Delmar and Skinker.
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PostApr 12, 2011#41

So we have a consensus: people who are harassing others should be cited. Problem solved.

It will cost money to keep police on the streets. So keep going to the Loop.
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PostApr 12, 2011#42

I think it would work wonders to get rid of the Shell station and Church's chicken, then clean up the Skinker intersection to make the loop more contiguous and pedestrian friendly. All the remotely dicey encounters I've had at the loop are at that intersection, plus trying to cross is like playing Russian Roulette
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PostApr 12, 2011#43

I agree on the intersection... however that is NOT the problem completely. The entire Loop district is a disaster at night on weekends. Ciecero's (as quoted on KMOX) is at the far west end. We were harrassed in two different areas.

This isn't just "kids" - that is the point I am trying to say.

The fact that KMOX has picked up this story is good too.

U-City response sounds wishy washy at best. I will say it again... this is a racial issue and everyone always seems to be "scared" of ruffling feathers. If this was happening in Soulard, South County or St. Charles - it would have been stopped already with stricter regulations and rules. The U-City Police are "scared" to do anything and why wouldn't they be. They need the back-up, support and power to arrest or fine these people right there on the street for indecency. Period.
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PostApr 12, 2011#44

matguy70 wrote:U-City response sounds wishy washy at best. I will say it again... this is a racial issue and everyone always seems to be "scared" of ruffling feathers.
Umm, I find this comment a bit offensive. What does race have to do with this? It's a behavior issue.
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PostApr 12, 2011#45

I’d like to make sure we can focus on this being a conversation on teenagers overcrowding the Loop, which after all is a bar district, rather than being another thread where national issues of socioeconomics and ethnicity are repositioned as the primary focus. These are incredibly huge issues that could have a series of threads of their own, but here and now, let’s keep our eyes on teenagers in the Loop.

And yes, there are plenty of white folk who get freaked out when a group of young black teenage males walk up the sidewalk towards them in an urban setting. There’s no doubt of this, and often enough there’s no reason for concern other than of their own perceptions. And sometimes there are valid reasons for concern of others, not based on strict ethnicity or skin pigmentation of a person but because plenty of kids are punk jerks, including many who hang out on the Loop. Perhaps this is causal from societal conditions for how certain teenagers are reared and parented, and with further potential causality ranging from individual responsibility (or lack thereof) to the actions of society in general towards macroeconomics and on and on and on. We could get lost in the tangents.

There are adults of all ethnicities who get freaked out when a group of young teenage males walk up the sidewalk towards them in a crowded setting. This could be a white couple apprehensive of a group of young black teenage males, or a black couple apprehensive of a group of young Latin teenage males, or a Latin couple apprehensive of a group of teenage males with mohawks & skate boards, or a progressive couple apprehensive of a group of teenage males with popped collars talking “Jersey”. We could go into whether or not certain demographics of teenagers have other places they could go, but I know there aren’t as many places as cool as the Loop, and the kids go wherever’s cool.

Let’s just not forget: Teenagers are generally sh*t disturbers, especially males in large numbers, and regardless of any other demographic add-ons such as socioeconomics or ethnicity. You get ten teenage guys from Affton walking down a street in a pack, and they’d be just as likely to act like self-righteous teenage assh*les causing trouble as ten teenage guys from Sumner.

So, I’d hope we all can focus on what can be done on the Loop regarding teenagers in general loitering on the streets.

Addendum: Wikipedia defines loitering as “the act of remaining in a particular public place for a protracted time. Under certain circumstances, it is illegal in various jurisdictions.”
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loitering
I’m not sure if loitering is statutorily illegal in the City of University City. I bet it is, as it generally is.
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PostApr 12, 2011#46

Didn't think we'd get the requisite, repeated, tired PC speech from Gone Corporate.
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PostApr 12, 2011#47

Being close to the age demographic, I feel as though I must represent. A curfew may be needed (I'd say 7 o'clock for 18s and under unless accompanied by a parent), but I think the most desperately needed things are tickets/fines for people who are disrupting the peace/loitering. I don't think anyone needs to worry about a small group of friends chilling by a building, but loitering in a fashion that blocks off the entire sidewalk is absolutely ridiculous. True, everyone's got a right to public space, but it's public space so that it can be shared, not hoarded by mobs of kids.

If anything, ceasing to go to the loop is just going to make things worse. That would tell these punks that they've won, that they "own" the street. Don't let them take and destroy a beautiful part of our city.
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PostApr 12, 2011#48

so obviously these kids are African American. Does anyone actually know where they're from? North City? Did they take the Metro link to get there? I would want to know these things before I create a plan to disburse large crowds of them.

I honestly wonder what draws them all to the Loop? For instance, when I was teenager heading to the Loop, my friends and I were drawn by Vintage Vinyl, the Head Shops, and the ability to walk up and down and "urban" street - which felt pretty cool. I have a feeling that isn't the same reason these kids are congregating there. Perhaps groups of teens from different areas are congregating there; "the spot", to use urban parlance. Just make them bust a hang somewhere else. I'm surprised, like most other things teens like, the Loop scene is still "cool"; these groups have been coming down to the Loop for at least three summers now. That's, like, an eon in the teenage mind.
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PostApr 12, 2011#49

matguy70 wrote:U-City response sounds wishy washy at best. I will say it again... this is a racial issue and everyone always seems to be "scared" of ruffling feathers. If this was happening in Soulard, South County or St. Charles - it would have been stopped already with stricter regulations and rules. The U-City Police are "scared" to do anything and why wouldn't they be. They need the back-up, support and power to arrest or fine these people right there on the street for indecency. Period.
If this same type of loitering was being done by white kids on Main Street in St. Charles: the thunderous response from the police would have quickly squashed the activity.
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PostApr 12, 2011#50

sirshankalot wrote:Didn't think we'd get the requisite, repeated, tired PC speech from Gone Corporate.
Would you rather I just wrote that I almost punched some little punk*ss kid in the neck Friday night, near the Starbucks across from Vintage Vinyl, jumping around in my face like he needed a slap? That he was under 21 and acting like a fool, and that I had six inches heighth over him, easily 50 lbs, and that I almost slugged him before he backed off?

Or that I heard "N" said probably six times out loud between the parking lot entrance next to the old Blockbuster and Vintage Vinyl? That I stopped for a minute to hear a saxophonist playing a Stevie Ray Vaughn cover in that little plaza next door to Racanelli's, but all I kept hearing was obscene?

Or that I saw a girl who couldn't be more than 13 dancing around in that parking lot when I was walking to my car, telling her friends that she wanted to be a stripper, that they have all the fun?

What does that give us? Anything more constructive?

I'm interested in talking about solutions without this derailing into a thread amongst us about ancillary, political agenda bullsh*t, or of the actions of a few immature kids acting without care or consequence. Since I threw that in now, can we get back on topic? Hope so.

So, besides giving up on the Loop altogether, what do we got?
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