If the Cardinals were to want another subsidy for improvements, Ballpark village would be something we could hold over their heads at least.
I'm curious about the geographic comparison of STL and KC. How does Country Club Plaza compare to Clayton? How far from each respective Downtown? Comparative densities? How would our Central Corridor (Downtown to Clayton) look overlaid on a map of KC? Does KC have a comparable CWE/Midtown area? Do they have a medical complex similar to Wash U/BJC?
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^ I think as a whole KC's central corridor is more leafy and less dense than ours. And if we identify ours as stretching from the river to Clayton/170 and KC's from the river to Country Club Plaza and UMKC/Rockhurst area ours is a couple miles longer. But there are similarities and they do have some excellent business & commercial districts, arts institutions & parks, nice neighborhoods and colleges and medical along the way. Definitely worth a visit.
And although they don't have light rail, I do believe the KC Streetcar is a huge asset that will make the core area from Crown Center down to River Market increasingly dense and walkable and already is paying off with great dividends. I think w/o Saint Louis Streetcar Downtown West and Midtown are going to redevelop at a much slower pace. That is my primary envy.
And although they don't have light rail, I do believe the KC Streetcar is a huge asset that will make the core area from Crown Center down to River Market increasingly dense and walkable and already is paying off with great dividends. I think w/o Saint Louis Streetcar Downtown West and Midtown are going to redevelop at a much slower pace. That is my primary envy.
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City of Kansas City (MO side only)
320 Square Miles
Pop: 459,000
Per sq Mile: 1,474
City of St.Louis
66 Square Miles
Pop: 319,000
Per sq mile: 5,157
I think if you stretch the City of STL boundaries to 320 sq miles it would probably be close to a million people along with 8 fortune 500 companies, 16 fortune 1000, crime stats drop to one of safest cities in the country, average income shoots up and all is well.
15 min drive from downtown to Clayton or 25min Metrolink train ride.
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11 min drive from downtown to CCP or 28 min bus ride
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320 Square Miles
Pop: 459,000
Per sq Mile: 1,474
City of St.Louis
66 Square Miles
Pop: 319,000
Per sq mile: 5,157
I think if you stretch the City of STL boundaries to 320 sq miles it would probably be close to a million people along with 8 fortune 500 companies, 16 fortune 1000, crime stats drop to one of safest cities in the country, average income shoots up and all is well.
15 min drive from downtown to Clayton or 25min Metrolink train ride.
11 min drive from downtown to CCP or 28 min bus ride
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But that is completely irrelevant to the question at hand of central corridor comparisons. For example, the respective #'s from the downtown orgs show KC with more residents in Greater Downtown.dbInSouthCity wrote:City of Kansas City (MO side only)
320 Square Miles
Pop: 459,000
Per sq Mile: 1,474
City of St.Louis
66 Square Miles
Pop: 319,000
Per sq mile: 5,157
I think if you stretch the City of STL boundaries to 320 sq miles it would probably be close to a million people.
Edit: The population in the City's central corridor neighborhoods grew by about 5,000 last decade from approx. 56,000 to 61,000. I have no idea what KC's population may be with a similar geographic comparison.
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My guess is that Kansas City has more downtown residents than St. Louis, but fewer residents in its midtown area.
I would also guess that St. Louis has more in its central corridor than Kansas City does from the River Market down to the Plaza.
I would also guess that St. Louis has more in its central corridor than Kansas City does from the River Market down to the Plaza.
Kansas City's Country Club Plaza area is very nice. The shopping district of CCP itself is especially nice, clean, regal - especially in the spring and summer months.framer wrote:I'm curious about the geographic comparison of STL and KC. How does Country Club Plaza compare to Clayton? How far from each respective Downtown? Comparative densities? How would our Central Corridor (Downtown to Clayton) look overlaid on a map of KC? Does KC have a comparable CWE/Midtown area? Do they have a medical complex similar to Wash U/BJC?
With that said, it's hard to compare Country Club Plaza to any district in St. Louis (CWE or Clayton) because all of those districts have uniqueness's and differences about them. Direct comparisons will certainly have numerous caveats.
For example, KC's Central Corridor includes their downtown airport whereas St. Louis' downtown airport is just across the river in Cahokia, Illinois. Country Club Plaza has an elegant shopping district in the heart of the CCP district. Clayton has Maryland Ave, but it pales in comparison. The Galleria, which sits right on the city line in Richmond Heights, provides upscale shopping in the area.
Here's how I gauge things:
Downtowns = Comparable. Although St. Louis' downtown is more connected to its riverfront.
Country Club Plaza = Mid County (Clayton, Richmond Heights, Brentwood Boulevard, Hanley)
Central West End = I really don't think there's anything "comparable" in Kansas City. The CWE is really eclectic.
Midtown St. Louis = Crown Center in KC and Midtown in STL are about the same. However, Crown Center is more business-and-tourist oriented while Midtown/Grand Center in St. Louis leans more residential, institutional and arts oriented.
Overland Park = Chesterfield Valley (Town & Country, Creve Coeur, Des Peres, Chesterfield). However, there's likely no height restrictions in Overland Park like there are in Chesterfield.
Personally, I don't know if KC's Central Corridor is more leafy. It didn't seem like it to me when I have visited.roger wyoming II wrote:^ I think as a whole KC's central corridor is more leafy and less dense than ours.
I know streets like Olive (below Grand Ave), Locust, Washington Avenue (above Jefferson Ave), Delmar, Chouteau and other cross streets in Midtown could use more trees along them. The burgeoning CORTEX could use more trees too, but I think that is happening as new development comes on line there.
And wasn't Franny supposed to have a goal of planting 6,000 trees in the city? What's the status with that?
Below is Central Corridor leafiness in St. Louis.
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I'd say that's pretty accurate.
But I would say that Crown Center doesn't feel like midtown at all to me. And it doesn't feel like midtown ... because Kansas City's midtown is further south.
Westport and the 39th street district are both far more midtown-related than Crown Center, which is almost more a part of Crossroads, which is a part of downtown's southern half. It is definitely disjointed from the rest of downtown, though. There is a sizeable gap of probably 1.5 miles between Crown Center and Town Pavilion.
I don't know. It's hard to compare St. Louis and Kansas City. St. Louis' most dense population runs east and west, while Kansas City's most dense population runs north and south.
But I would say that Crown Center doesn't feel like midtown at all to me. And it doesn't feel like midtown ... because Kansas City's midtown is further south.
Westport and the 39th street district are both far more midtown-related than Crown Center, which is almost more a part of Crossroads, which is a part of downtown's southern half. It is definitely disjointed from the rest of downtown, though. There is a sizeable gap of probably 1.5 miles between Crown Center and Town Pavilion.
I don't know. It's hard to compare St. Louis and Kansas City. St. Louis' most dense population runs east and west, while Kansas City's most dense population runs north and south.
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It was easier in the paper map days, before heavy computer monitors and auto-rotating ipad screens.KansasCitian wrote: It's hard to compare St. Louis and Kansas City. St. Louis' most dense population runs east and west, while Kansas City's most dense population runs north and south.
Yeah, I was attempting to compare high-rise districts that have mixed-use components that draw people. The closet I was able to do was Midtown/Grand Center and Crown Plaza.KansasCitian wrote:I'd say that's pretty accurate.
But I would say that Crown Center doesn't feel like midtown at all to me. And it doesn't feel like midtown ... because Kansas City's midtown is further south.
Westport and the 39th street district are both far more midtown-related than Crown Center, which is almost more a part of Crossroads, which is a part of downtown's southern half. It is definitely disjointed from the rest of downtown, though. There is a sizeable gap of probably 1.5 miles between Crown Center and Town Pavilion.
Nonetheless, I agree. It's hard to compare because of all the caveats.
The difference between the two corridors?
Roads.
I-64 splits the central corridor of St. Louis, whereas the primary north-south connector highway in KC, Highway 71, is a significant distance to the east. The other north south highway, I-35, quickly moves south into Kansas and goes away. Because of this, people driving through KC use streets and boulevards lined with businesses and homes, whereas most people will choose to use the highway to make a similar trek in St. Louis.
This causes St. Louis to feel less connected and accessible. If Highway 40/I-64 had been built as a boulevard instead of an interstate St. Louis would have a significantly different feel.
I'd add that Forest Park, while being a world class amenity, creates an additional barrier between downtown and Clayton, causing the distance between the two to feel even greater. Also, if you dropped the Galleria in downtown Clayton you would get a larger version of KC's Plaza, but since those two amenities/areas are separate, STL spreads out even more.
However, if it comes down to choosing individual districts, I'd probably choose St. Louis's offerings over KC, but because KC's primo areas are closer together, things flow more easily.
Roads.
I-64 splits the central corridor of St. Louis, whereas the primary north-south connector highway in KC, Highway 71, is a significant distance to the east. The other north south highway, I-35, quickly moves south into Kansas and goes away. Because of this, people driving through KC use streets and boulevards lined with businesses and homes, whereas most people will choose to use the highway to make a similar trek in St. Louis.
This causes St. Louis to feel less connected and accessible. If Highway 40/I-64 had been built as a boulevard instead of an interstate St. Louis would have a significantly different feel.
I'd add that Forest Park, while being a world class amenity, creates an additional barrier between downtown and Clayton, causing the distance between the two to feel even greater. Also, if you dropped the Galleria in downtown Clayton you would get a larger version of KC's Plaza, but since those two amenities/areas are separate, STL spreads out even more.
However, if it comes down to choosing individual districts, I'd probably choose St. Louis's offerings over KC, but because KC's primo areas are closer together, things flow more easily.
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It is indeed the Downtown West to Forest Park area and the roadside character of their primary throughways I have in mind.... in KC you hit the greened up Crown Center/Penn Valley area soon after leaving downtown and then you have the parkways. Here, 64 is an elevated and ugly abomination and Chouteau/Manchester, Market. Olive, Delmar etc. are all pretty bleak as well. Tons of greyscape. Lindell past Grand is pretty nice around SLU but takes awhile to get there. But even things like Delmar are sad well beyond Grand. And Downtown West is just, well, sad.arch city wrote:Personally, I don't know if KC's Central Corridor is more leafy. It didn't seem like it to me when I have visited.roger wyoming II wrote:^ I think as a whole KC's central corridor is more leafy and less dense than ours.
I know streets like Olive (below Grand Ave), Locust, Washington Avenue (above Jefferson Ave), Delmar, Chouteau and other cross streets in Midtown could use more trees along them. The burgeoning CORTEX could use more trees too, but I think that is happening as new development comes on line there.
And wasn't Franny supposed to have a goal of planting 6,000 trees in the city? What's the status with that?
Below is Central Corridor leafiness in St. Louis.
I wasn't aware of Slay's goal but we definitely need a big push with streetscapes and trees/landscaping. It would be nice to have Jack Taylor pay for thousands.... he supported some awesomely large number nationally a few years back.
KC Biz has an interesting look at potential development surrounding the new convention center hotel that includes the potential for more decking over the south loop...
http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... l?page=all
"...Decking over the south end of the loop also would create better pedestrian connectivity between locations inside the loop and the Crossroads Arts District to the south.
But City Manager Troy Schulte said the cost of decking over the loop has been estimated at $30 million a block, so that probably won't happen anytime soon.
Nevertheless, Kerr said he thinks land south of the loop will become the priciest real estate in the downtown area due to the shortage of sites inside the loop and developments such as the downtown streetcar line, the new Hyatt and a new $90 million location for the University of Missouri-Kansas City's Conservatory of Music and Dance...."
There also is another article about how the Rams stadium is eating into the ability of other projects to land Brownfields credits, including $$ pulled from the Commerce Tower redevelopment...
Commerce Tower project gets 'Rammed,' catches TIF break
http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... m-tif.html
http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... l?page=all
"...Decking over the south end of the loop also would create better pedestrian connectivity between locations inside the loop and the Crossroads Arts District to the south.
But City Manager Troy Schulte said the cost of decking over the loop has been estimated at $30 million a block, so that probably won't happen anytime soon.
Nevertheless, Kerr said he thinks land south of the loop will become the priciest real estate in the downtown area due to the shortage of sites inside the loop and developments such as the downtown streetcar line, the new Hyatt and a new $90 million location for the University of Missouri-Kansas City's Conservatory of Music and Dance...."
There also is another article about how the Rams stadium is eating into the ability of other projects to land Brownfields credits, including $$ pulled from the Commerce Tower redevelopment...
Commerce Tower project gets 'Rammed,' catches TIF break
http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... m-tif.html
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realclear, that's a good post.
I think Kansas City's nice spots are almost all in a line. So a lot of the time, Kansas City drivers will use the boulevards around town to get around.
But seriously, you can almost draw a straight line through the River Market, Central Business District/Power & Light, Crossroads, Crown Center, Midtown, Westport, Country Club Plaza, Brookside/Crestwood areas, and then Waldo.
A few areas are off of that line, like the 18th & Vine Jazz District, but most importantly, Swope Park.
That's one of the things I believe St. Louis has over Kansas City. Forest Park is so much a part of St. Louis city and Clayton. Sure, you have to drive around it and that's sort of annoying, but it's a very welcome backyard of sorts for St. Louis.
Swope Park in Kansas City is, as far as I am concerned, out of the way of Kansas City's urban core. It's in Kansas City proper, but it's miles upon miles from downtown. It's south of the Country Club Plaza and that's already nearly five miles away. It doesn't have that same backyard feel that Forest Park has.
I think Kansas City's nice spots are almost all in a line. So a lot of the time, Kansas City drivers will use the boulevards around town to get around.
But seriously, you can almost draw a straight line through the River Market, Central Business District/Power & Light, Crossroads, Crown Center, Midtown, Westport, Country Club Plaza, Brookside/Crestwood areas, and then Waldo.
A few areas are off of that line, like the 18th & Vine Jazz District, but most importantly, Swope Park.
That's one of the things I believe St. Louis has over Kansas City. Forest Park is so much a part of St. Louis city and Clayton. Sure, you have to drive around it and that's sort of annoying, but it's a very welcome backyard of sorts for St. Louis.
Swope Park in Kansas City is, as far as I am concerned, out of the way of Kansas City's urban core. It's in Kansas City proper, but it's miles upon miles from downtown. It's south of the Country Club Plaza and that's already nearly five miles away. It doesn't have that same backyard feel that Forest Park has.
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Interesting read on NextCity about KC indebting itself to Cordish and when to say when re development incentives, including a few words from our St. Louis-bashing pal Yael T. Abouhalkah:
http://nextcity.org/features/view/kansa ... -companies
http://nextcity.org/features/view/kansa ... -companies
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^ That's a good article; I think blz may have posted it on the BPV thread.
I certainly would like for Saint Louis to be able to back more quality projects with bridge funding, etc., particularly for the remaining historics, but I'd be open to some more subsidies for Cordish (or others) to build residential. But not the backing of bonds.
I certainly would like for Saint Louis to be able to back more quality projects with bridge funding, etc., particularly for the remaining historics, but I'd be open to some more subsidies for Cordish (or others) to build residential. But not the backing of bonds.
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That skyline is in for some major changes in the next 5 years. Future Cordish towers and the new convention center hotel will add 3-4 more plus some other modern glass towers that are in the works.
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Nice project in KC's Midtown.... rehab of the Missouri Gas Energy building into 100 units along with new construction of several buildings (commercial, apartments and townhomes) on the huge surface lot.
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The total project should deliver about 500 residents plus the two-story commercial building.
http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/b ... along.html
The article also notes that the building was under lease through this fall but the employees already have moved to Saint Louis after MGE's purchase by Laclede Gas.
The total project should deliver about 500 residents plus the two-story commercial building.
http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/b ... along.html
The article also notes that the building was under lease through this fall but the employees already have moved to Saint Louis after MGE's purchase by Laclede Gas.
As with our downtown, KC is having quite a bit of action with hotel developments. The new convention center hotel is the most prominent, but the conversion of this vacant historic office building to a Hotel Indigo looks pretty cool:
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http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... wn-kc.html
Top three floors will be market-rate apartments.
http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... wn-kc.html
Top three floors will be market-rate apartments.
Applebee's headquarters moved to Kansas City from Lenexa, Kan., in 2011, after receiving a $12.9 million incentive package. Today, they announced that the headquarters is moving to California.
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 1605a.html
http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 1605a.html
^That's messed up.
I wonder if Yael T. Abouhalkah will write about it in The Star?
Meanwhile, St. Louis-based Hardees still could be moving to Nashville.
I wonder if Yael T. Abouhalkah will write about it in The Star?
Meanwhile, St. Louis-based Hardees still could be moving to Nashville.
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One Light about to begin move-ins. Photo tour:
http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... nears.html
Two Light up next:
Benjamin said the complex should be 90 percent leased by the time renters start moving in on Nov. 28. The exceptionally high demand — he said 3,000 people are on a waiting list for a spot in Cordish’s towers — for the first tower has accelerated building plans for Two Light, a $105 million high-rise luxury apartment building to be built after One Light opens, as well as the remaining towers the Baltimore-based developer has planned near the entertainment district.
http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... nears.html
Two Light up next:
Benjamin said the complex should be 90 percent leased by the time renters start moving in on Nov. 28. The exceptionally high demand — he said 3,000 people are on a waiting list for a spot in Cordish’s towers — for the first tower has accelerated building plans for Two Light, a $105 million high-rise luxury apartment building to be built after One Light opens, as well as the remaining towers the Baltimore-based developer has planned near the entertainment district.