urbanSTL

Chalupas54 wrote:Also, the 800 room Hyatt skyscraper proposed for Dt Kansas City is dead.

It's not dead, the funding is not lined up yet.
http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... elays.html

Dwarf means insignificant in comparison, it's only a 19% difference yet STL nearly 30% larger in population. That is 150 vs 122 isn't dwarfing, 150 vs 15 would be. STL's per cap GMP is lower than almost all major league metros except a couple with high immigrant/retired population (Phoenix, Miami). GMP is not something for STL to boast about, and KC is only barely above avg.

Wow, hilarious.

ugh, semantics arguments are tiresome. i have to agree with earthling, though, that "dwarf" is an exaggeration. that said, i think people underestimate the changes occurring in St. Louis' economy. we had the 4th highest increase in college graduates per capita in the US between 2000 and 2014 (http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-an ... elt-cities), and the 2nd highest rate of new business formation in the US in 2014 (http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/st- ... -frontier/). i looked up St. Louis' new business formation rate as compared to KC earlier in the year (via Bureau of Labor Statistics) and it was significantly higher as of 1 or 2 years ago. can't recall where i posted that info but i'll leave it to you to verify. development-wise, the city hasn't seen the current level of investment in years; i'm pretty sure it's now surpassed pre-recession levels. in terms of construction, the category "new construction" doesn't encompass the hundreds of rehabs that the city is seeing from year to year, which are adding a substantial number of residential units—particularly downtown where large, vacant buildings were plentiful until recently. on top of that, actual "new" construction continues to ramp up. if the St. Louis metro could ever overcome its debilitating fragmentation it would be a force to reckon with.

When I look at STL and KC I see some good things going on in both and hopefully the two can work well together in advancing a more pro-urban future in Missouri in a difficult environment. But if we're to "judge" STL against KC in terms of development activity, etc., I'd say that we lagged behind our western peer along with almost everywhere else in the post-recession period but I think there is evidence that we're beginning to come into our own the past year or so... if some of these recent plans indeed get off the ground, things can get darn well exciting.

Outside of Indy and Columbus having some growth spurts at the expense of Great Lakes cites having issues, the Midwest isn't exactly hot in general. STL and KC hit high marks in certain areas but not broadly.

Migration is another interesting way of looking at population growth. This shows breakdown of birth/death rates, international/domestic migration per metro...

STL's small population growth is basically due to birth rate. There is a domestic outmigration and international inmigration isn't offsetting the losses. This is common with many rust belt cities...
https://www.recenter.tamu.edu/data/popu ... s%2C_MO-IL

KC had some domestic losses during the downturn and starting to return but still not like 90's and 2000s growth...
https://www.recenter.tamu.edu/data/popu ... y%2C_MO-KS

Indy/Columbus have been benefiting from Great Lakes significant losses, and helps to be state capitals. Minneapolis actually has domestic losses often but enough international inmigration to offset.

Methinks STL would be better off if the state capital moved there, donate Jackson County MO to KS and make KCMO the KS state capital. Not realistic I know but both cities would probably be better off if that could happen, and probably better state economies in general.

^ obviously the Rust Belt and Midwest have some population and demographic challenges, but otoh I don't think there is any doubt that its central cities are starting to find their stride again.... Cleveland, Cincy, Buffalo, Detroit, Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, Kansas City and Saint Louis all have significant action in their core and offer a quality of life that many cities that are growing faster simply can't offer. The challenges increasingly may be found in aging suburban areas with poor access to transportation and jobs.

earthling wrote:

Chalupas54 wrote:Also, the 800 room Hyatt skyscraper proposed for Dt Kansas City is dead.

It's not dead, the funding is not lined up yet.
http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... elays.html

Relative is in on the project. He says it will not get off the ground.

Chalupas54 wrote:

earthling wrote:Wow, hilarious.

I'm sorry but literally I don't get why you people in Kansas City are always trying to bash St Louis and demean us. It's pointless. Just accept that St Louis is in fact listed on the Global Power City index and Kansas City isn't. Not hard. You people annoy me. Sorry, you just do. Have fun in cowtown.

i don't think he/she was bashing anybody. he/she just responded to some exaggerated claims about STL vs KC from earlier in the thread. he/she may not even be in KC.

Chalupas54 wrote:I'm sorry but literally I don't get why you people in Kansas City are always trying to bash St Louis and demean us. It's pointless. Just accept that St Louis is in fact listed on the Global Power City index and Kansas City isn't. Not hard. You people annoy me. Sorry, you just do. Have fun in cowtown.

Look, I don't think anyone was trying to demean St. Louis. Some words were used that could be construed as derogatory to Kansas City: most specifically "dwarf." I get offended if someone suggests that Minneapolis or Seattle "dwarfs" St. Louis. Yeah, they're bigger, but they're not an order of magnitude bigger; only what I would characterize as a small percentage. A lot of this is a judgment call. It's subjective. We can say that the St. Louis area is objectively larger than the KC metro. No question here. We can say that the Kansas City area is growing faster. Again, not really controversial. But subjective words get people's hackles up sometimes. The whole Global Power jab is just that sort of subjective. Different folks have different measures, and they're not always terribly transparent. What makes Cleveland a Beta- World City and St. Louis Gamma+? This isn't clear. Where is the break point and why? Very very few people (by which I mean roughly none) would call St. Louis a world city in ordinary conversation. University educated folks in large swathes of East Asia have never heard of the place. (I speak from experience, sadly.) The same cannot be said of places that roll of the tongue as world cities; Rome, Hong Kong, Istanbul, Las Angeles . . . Urban dwellers the world over can instantly picture world cities. That's what makes them world cities. Yeah, if pressed everyone has seen the arch, but few people outside the west have the first clue where it is beyond "America." (Again, I speak from experience.)

Anyway, no one is running down St. Louis. A few people are asking that we not run down Kansas City. That is all. There is a difference.

Yeah an exaggeration was made and so I posted the sources that show otherwise, that's it. Am originally from STL BTW, lately live mostly in KC but winter in Florida, LA and sometimes Brooklyn (can work from anywhere). Still have family in STL and visit often. The insults towards KC are amusing though. Have traveled US/world many times over and find that STL has some pretty severe superior/inferior bipolarism compared to most places. But it's got some great bones to rehab. Nice to see Central Corridor picking up steam, looking good.

earthling wrote:Yeah an exaggeration was made and so I posted the sources that show otherwise, that's it. Am originally from STL BTW, lately live mostly in KC but winter in Florida, LA and sometimes Brooklyn (can work from anywhere). Still have family in STL and visit often. The insults towards KC are amusing though. Have traveled US/world many times over and find that STL has some pretty severe superior/inferior bipolarism compared to most places. But it's got some great bones to rehab. Nice to see Central Corridor picking up steam, looking good.

to be fair, though, i've seen plenty of anti-STL rhetoric from KC people as well. for the most part this thread has been pretty good.

It absolutely goes both ways, but it does us no good to continue it. We all get a little over-sensitive sometimes. We all say things carelessly. I hope that we all love St. Louis. With a little luck this goes without saying. That's why we're here. Well, Kansas City is also a fine town, with much to recommend it. And that was the original and should be the continued purpose of this thread, I think. Enough with the cross-state sniping. We're in this together.

I understand the controversy behind the word "dwarfs" from both perspectives. However, the context in which Chalupas54 used the word "dwarfs" was accurate. People need to realize that many words have more than one meaning or context.

Chalupas54 wrote, "The economic output of St Louis still dwarfs KC." That was an accurate statement.

St. Louis' GMP "exceeds", "tops" and "surpasses" KC's. That is a factual statement.

Hell yes.

I hate that guy.

I think his opinions on Kansas City are worthless, and his opinions about St. Louis are even more so.

Karma came back to bite ol' Yael. While I would not wish any person to lose his/her livelihood, this guy deserves to be silenced. What a goof! Let's hope he doesn't resurface. It would be hilarious if he tried to get a job in STL. He does seem to be obsessed with us.