urbanSTL

So Olive will still not be open to through traffic? I see now that this plan is still not accomplishing much except for connecting the gaslight square area better. Olive needs to be completely open.

most residents in gaslight square (myself actually not included) feel like if Olive is open, we will have a tremendous problem with speeding traffic, crime and safety. (read back a few pages to see the debate). as a result of several meetings, olive will remain closed. i do feel this plan works much better than the barriers that were randomly placed in the middle of a two block development, though.



so unfortunately, olive will remain closed.

If barriers are just being relocated, not removed, then it sounds like the CWE is just annexing Gaslight Square into its gated oasis. IOW, now the eastern limits to the gated-CWE will be Sarah instead of Whittier.

The easy solution: Allow truck traffic on Lindell, and get rid of all barriers.

Sigh. One step forward, two steps back. Will they never learn?

I got a note in my mailbox last night re: the barricades. Alderman Kennedy is encouraging residents to have one more meeting to make sure there is a consensus regarding the new barricade positions. Here's a snippet from the note:



"...while the 4200 block will be united with our neighbors on the 4100 block, only the 4200 block will get through traffic. All of the other blocks will experience less or no through traffic. I commented to Alderman Kennedy that the proposed idea could put our block in the same situation we faced before the current barricades were installed. His response: "Could be.""



There is a meeting scheduled on Thursday, July 20 at 7:30PM. I can't imagine we will come to a consensus, but I think it's critical for those of us who want the barriers to come down to voice our opinions. Send me a PM if you'd like more details.

through to where? the 4100 block??



they are moaning and groaning about speeding traffic in their alleys too.

gee, i wonder what caused that problem.



this is getting ridiculous. 4200 olive is the only block pitching a fit.

My two cents on the barriers:



One of the greatest benefits of a truly urban environment is the ability to NOT need to drive your car. One way this is possible is by hailing a cab and having it take you where you're going. Blocking off the grid system disrupts this type of activity by: (i) forcing a cab taking you home to travel blocks out of the way to bring you back to your little urban cul-du-sac, and (ii) discouraging an open cab from ever happening down your block. StL isn't there yet, but there are encouraging signs. And then they block off Olive.

(ii) discouraging an open cab from ever happening down your block. StL isn't there yet, but there are encouraging signs. And then they block off Olive.

I really can't see the barriers having any impact on catching a cab. This section of Olive doesn't have the density to warrant open cabs looking for passengers. Even in much higher-density neighborhoods in larger cities, it's not uncommon to have to walk to a major street (i.e. Lindell, Kingshighway). But I do agree with your first point - it would be nice to not have to drive blocks out of the way...

it's not uncommon to have to walk to a major street

Agreed. I guess I think of Olive as a "major" street, but maybe its not once you get past SLU. Still, if thru traffic is still speeding down a street that is not major, I think blocking it off is a little extreme. First, stop signs at every intersection. When that doesn't work I would even consider (but still hate) small speed bumps before closing it off entirely. Have such alternatives been considered? Speed bumps can work in urban residential neighborhoods that are often used as a cut-thru (e.g., Roscoe St. in Chicago).

When that doesn't work I would even consider (but still hate) small speed bumps before closing it off entirely. Have such alternatives been considered?

Yes, we considered speed bumps. I agree they would be a huge improvement over barricades. But we were were told by Alderman Kennedy that speed bumps weren't an option because Olive is a public street. The reason streets like McPherson (in front of Metro High School) can have speed bumps is that they're private streets.

I brought it up before, but I'll reiterate. I think the best way to slow traffic and beautify the area at the same time would be to install roundabouts. They force you to slow and (IMO) add a good 'pedestrian square' feel to an intersection. Barricades add nothing positive to a neighborhood, divide the area, and cause more problems than they're worth. Also, they look like trash bins left in the middle of the road; certainly nothing I'd want in my neighborhood.

^Yes, a roundabout seems to be the answer here. It might be a small one, and they may need to snip at the sidewalks a bit, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work.

We've also suggested roundabouts, but were told the intersection wasn't large enough. I even brought up using small ones, but the alderman quickly shot down the idea. Does anyone know the minimum size of an intersection that can support the smallest possible roundabout?

I don't know the minimum size, but check ot the area around park just west of tucker. There are some tiny yet effective roundabout intersections around there.

One of the main things considered when building a roundabout is if that there must be a minimum turning radius for fire trucks to make it through. I don't know what the minimum for that would be, but the roundabout at 141 and Woods Mill measures roughly 147 feet in diameter.

But firetrucks are completly blocked right now.



Just put a ghetto barrier in the middle of the intersection with stop signs. I've seen it elsewhere in St. Louis

I am happy to see movement toward a comprehensive evaluation of traffic flow in the Gaslight Square area. From the very beginning, the 4200 block residents (including myself) have stated that safety was the key issue to why we asked it to be blocked almost a year ago. Now, times have changed. More construction has been completed so less construction traffic, etc. Also, we have more neighbors and it is nice to make the area more inconclusive. Actually, the proposal looks very logical with many respects. I was surprised to see that the barriers by Schnucks are proposed to be removed to connect us to Lindell. Barriers along Sarah at Washington, Olive, and Westminster will cut us off a bit from the east but we can navigate around to access key streets. Therefore, the only reason to come into our community will be if we live here or if someone is going to the retail located in the corner of Whittier/Olive. By opening Lindell by Schnucks the main traffic artery will be Boyle to Olive to Whittier to Lindell (by Schnucks) including the Schnucks trucks. This will place a higher traffic burden on the 4200 block and result more than likely toward the same safety issues that we had originally. So, its not surprising that the 4200 block is absolutely opposed to opening the block to major thru traffic. However, I am sure we would be favor of moving them to Boyle in efforts to promote unity and inclusion within the community. Unfortunately, this idea was not shared during the most recent meeting at city hall because the Gaslight HOA was not aware of the meeting where this proposal was debated. It looks like we are moving forward and that is very positive.

stlcardsfan wrote:Therefore, the only reason to come into our community will be if we live here or if someone is going to the retail located in the corner of Whittier/Olive.

I think we need to focus less on making GS an "exclusive" community, and more on opening it up to surrounding neighborhoods. We're living in the city, and I'd like to feel connected to the rest of the city. I want our neighborhood to be vibrant, not like a desolate, exclusive subdivision in the suburbs.

stlcardsfan wrote:So, its not surprising that the 4200 block is absolutely opposed to opening the block to major thru traffic. However, I am sure we would be favor of moving them to Boyle in efforts to promote unity and inclusion within the community.

I, as a 4200 block resident, would not be in favor of placing barricades at Boyle. In fact, I think this is the worst proposition yet. So much money was spent on the grand entrance to GS at Olive & Boyle - it doesn't make sense to block it off.



I don't understand why some are so opposed to having traffic on our street. We have nice bump-outs in place to provide pedestrians a buffer from street traffic. I, personally, feel much more safe with more people around.

Unfortunately you are missing the key point. Its absolutely not an issue of being an exclusive community rather than an issue of safety. The police department can provide you with impressive data regarding the difference the barricades have made. Having more people around doesn't equate to safety. Also, limiting through traffic on Olive (while enhancing traffic as a community via Whittier, etc) will absolutely not result in a desolate area.



It is possible to place a barricade in the form of an ornamental gate or someother barrier in the recessed area associated with the two half walls located on Olive. This doesn't distract from the main entrance at all and will ensure safety. Bump-outs have proven in the past to be ineffective.



Why is there little discussion about blocking Sarah at Washington, Westminster or McPherson at Boyle... but so much attention to blocking on the 4200 block. If the community doesn't want the areas to be blocked then we should eliminate all barricades. However, when the proposal is to shift the majority of traffic along one particular block than it is no wonder opposition will be present. A direct route from Boyle to Whittier to Lindell will most definitely change the landscape of the community but it will effect 4200 quite a bit. Do we really want the GS area to become the route for Schnucks trucks again? The folks on McPherson can tell you all about that and they are seeking to barricade their street. Is there opposition to it? I haven't heard any. Will that make them exclusive? No, I don't think so.

I completely agree with Zezus.

I completely DISagree with cardsfan!

Don't necessarilly believe all the police stats. They are effective briefly, but all it does is shuffle it around, and it finds it's way back anyway. The best solution would in fact be opening all of the streets so that traffic isn't concentrated on one street. Combine that with curb bump outs and maybe some roundabouts and that should help to control any speeding. Just closing yourself off is not the solution. And activity can help to deter crime.



And the Schnucks claim is possibly true, but why are the trucks on those streets in the first place? Commercial traffic is not allowed on residential streets, but technically not allowed on Lindell either. The solution to that would be move the truck traffic to Lindell, a street that is certainly big enough to handle it, and talk to the manager of the store and the corporate office to let them know that their trucks are not welcome on residential streets, and will be ticketed when they violate the law. A solution can easily be found. (Really, how many trucks are we actually talking about?)



It's great to see people move into the city, but they have to expect living there to be like living in an urban area, not a suburban cul de sac.

I agree with Zezuz, too. After all, this is the city. Please don't bring the nonsense of suburban elitism to our city by cutting off streets, ANY streets, for any reason. If you don't like what goes on day to day with living in the city (traffic, delivery trucks, non-resisents passing by, etc.), perhaps you should re-evaluate if the city is truley where you belong. I hate to be so blunt, but there isn't any other way I can relay that this is obvious to a true ubanite.

No one has yet responded to the question of why so much discussion is centered on the 4200 block rather than the other proposed blockades. This proposal is comprehensive of the entire area but the neighbors wish to add more blockades rather than remove existing ones. In fact, the proposal basically cuts off access from downtown into our community and vice versa unless you come via Lindell or Delmar. So, please don't argue that the 4200 block is touting "elitism" and trying to separate the community. it appears the community as a whole has already proposed worse by blocking Sarah at Washington, Olive, Westminster, etc.



I have lived in urban areas for years. The sort of issues I am discussing are beyond what is expected in an urban city. It would be fine if traffic wasn't specifically diverted onto a particular street but could be diffused throughout. Quite frankly, look at the entire central west end. Unfortunately, others have created the blockades and it is most unusual and confining, yet I can't change that. What I can voice concern over is diverting unusually high volumes of traffic on the very block that I live. Why should the other streets be upset when most of their streets will be blocked and be nice and quiet.



Frankly, I am happy that the proposal seems to be so positive for my neighbors on adjacent blocks. It seems like everyone is getting something they want EXCEPT 4200 block. Think about it a moment. The original issue started because of initially high volumes of traffic and crime on the 4200 block months and months ago when the initial construction was taking place and most neighbors weren't moved into the adjacent blocks. We were told this was our only temporary option to make the place safe. So we went forward with a 6 month stop-gap with the idea that we could re-evaluate after that point. So, the 6 months are up and we have heard the ideas of other neighbors. Now, the proposed plan is to block every other street except 4200 and worse yet... lets divert all of the traffic along that route so it becomes a nice artery. How crazy is that idea.



My preference is to remove ALL barricades but I know that will not happen. Therefore, I would be silly not to then focus on my own block to make sure the families on our street don't get the worse end of the deal. I voice concern on this discussion board because frankly the ideas generated here seem so extreme at times and don't often take into the logic of the opposing ideas. People seem quick to belittle our concerns and assume we are just elite or you can read the other names that have been posted. Honestly, we are just average people trying to support a family and live life to the fullest. When you start meeting the neighbors and hearing their stories than it becomes very real and personal.

MattnSTL wrote:The best solution would in fact be opening all of the streets so that traffic isn't concentrated on one street.

I have said it. Opening all the streets would solve the heavy traffic on Olive problem. If people went in thinking that Olive was a quiet residential street, they were fooled by the fact that it was closed during construction and the home tour. When I was working in one of the homes still under construction after the street had been opened, I still did not feel that traffic warranted anything like barriers. I don't know anything about crime problems since I don't live there, but in my educated opinion this situation is being overblown.