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PostSep 05, 2015#651

Arch City, Framer, Urban Dilettante. You have all made very pertinent points that I have definitely taken into consideration.

Arch City, I respect your opinion and totally get where you are coming from. What Tef said, wasn't over my head and I agree with a lot of things said within the BLM movement. I'm just not lock and step in agreement with everything BLM says and I think we are doing ourselves a great disservice to not objectively look at all perspectives. I'm not denying that America is a society plagued with racial bias and discrimination, I'm just asking the question of whether Black America is also complicit in perpetuating the current racial paradigm. Again, if you go back to my commentary I asked, what is our new religion? What do we believe in now?

Framer, one of our greatest rights is "freedom of speech" and many Americans, of all colors, have sacrificed a great deal to retain that right. Many people tried to scare me out of releasing this article, out of fear that I would get criticized and harassed by people in the BLM movement. So far, I have gotten way more support from people of a diverse array of backgrounds than critics. As hard as it is to swallow for many of the BLM protesters, my more "conservative" thinking is way more prevalent in the Black community than what many non-blacks would think.

Urban Dilettante, Even during the initial Ferguson protests, I heard a lot of people say some very disparaging things about Michael Brown, the protesters, the rioting etc. and guess what? A majority of these people were Black people from NoCo, that felt that the Ferguson fiasco turned their community into a media circus. Does this make these people Donald Trump or Rush Limbaugh sympathizers? No way, but when people get established, get education, get a career, have something to live for, have dignity etc. they usually carry themselves in a different manner and develop a more conservative ideology.

PostSep 05, 2015#652

Arch City, I also find the juxtaposition of Tupac and MLK to be flawed. Although, I think Tupac was a brilliant poet, extraordinary entertainer, and great social commentator, his legacy is not comparable to MLK. We are talking about a reverend, scholar, civil rights activist, globally recognized humanitarian in MLK, Tupac self-identified as a thug, no matter how brilliant he may have had the potential to be. So that's why I asked if this was our new religion. Glorifying the tragic over the optimistic and hopeful. Has Afro-American leadership really devolved from MLK to Tupac?
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PostSep 05, 2015#653

goat314 wrote:Urban Dilettante, Even during the initial Ferguson protests, I heard a lot of people say some very disparaging things about Michael Brown, the protesters, the rioting etc. and guess what? A majority of these people were Black people from NoCo, that felt that the Ferguson fiasco turned their community into a media circus. Does this make these people Donald Trump or Rush Limbaugh sympathizers? No way, but when people get established, get education, get a career, have something to live for, have dignity etc. they usually carry themselves in a different manner and develop a more conservative ideology.
I totally agree. I'm just saying that, for those who haven't had access to an education or a career, or don't feel that they have anything to live for, saying "just be responsible, duh" doesn't accomplish anything. In those cases, what helps is to understand WHY they don't have access to an education or a career, or to understand WHY they feel like they have nothing to live for, and to help them change their circumstances. There will always be a few people (of all colors) who just don't want to take any responsibility for themselves, but I really don't believe that the entrenched poverty and associated problems in the St. Louis black community stem from just not wanting to take responsibility.
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PostSep 05, 2015#654

arch city wrote:Truthfully goat314, I'm bored. I could skillfully address many of your points, but I won't. It's certainly not because I can't, but it is because I'm bored.

All of what you've lamented here has been discussed ad nauseam on social media, network news, public forums - including this one, on university campuses and by the POTUS etc. etc. Yet, it's good for people to see that black people aren't monolithic.

I'm really bored though.

Let's talk action including hands-on and practical solutions.

Seriously...not to be smug, but we could discuss problems all day.

You have a problem with BLM, but where's your movement? Where's your 501 (c)3? Are you mentoring? Where's your counter? How are you uplifting? Empowering? Other than opinion, what are you doing that is fruitful and socially actionable?

What are you doing to be a (or the) difference maker? A Change Agent?


OMG.....I'm speechless. I've worked in the black community as a special education teacher for years, now I'm a mental health professional that works with undeserved kids and children with developmental disabilities, black, brown, and white. I'm currently in the process of becoming a Board Certified Behavioral Analyst and I have aspirations of getting my PhD in clinical psychology, so I can continue to serve under privileged communities that need mental health services.

I also live in the black community, have a black mate, take care of my black family, and drive a black car, wear black shades, and prefer my coffee black....is that blacklivesmatters enough for you?

PostSep 05, 2015#655

urban_dilettante wrote:
goat314 wrote:Urban Dilettante, Even during the initial Ferguson protests, I heard a lot of people say some very disparaging things about Michael Brown, the protesters, the rioting etc. and guess what? A majority of these people were Black people from NoCo, that felt that the Ferguson fiasco turned their community into a media circus. Does this make these people Donald Trump or Rush Limbaugh sympathizers? No way, but when people get established, get education, get a career, have something to live for, have dignity etc. they usually carry themselves in a different manner and develop a more conservative ideology.
I totally agree. I'm just saying that, for those who haven't had access to an education or a career, or don't feel that they have anything to live for, saying "just be responsible, duh" doesn't accomplish anything. In those cases, what helps is to understand WHY they don't have access to an education or a career, or to understand WHY they feel like they have nothing to live for, and to help them change their circumstances. There will always be a few people (of all colors) who just don't want to take any responsibility for themselves, but I really don't believe that the entrenched poverty and associated problems in the St. Louis black community stem from just not wanting to take responsibility.
Yeah, but at what point does personal accountability take over. Look I'm all for opportunity and I'm actually an advocate for free education, but the reality is many people do not take advantage of the opportunities they already have, whether that be from pure ignorance, lack of knowledge, self-pity, lack of determination, complacency etc. There are grants for college/trade schools etc. people take our student loans to pay for school, make the sacrifices necessary to change your condition. What exactly do blacklivesmatter think they are owed? Even if everybody was written a 250k check or we got all of these cop laws change, would that truly change the conditions of impoverished blacks in America? Is everybody going to be a winner then? Are some black people just lousy people? Are we allowed to say that?
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PostSep 05, 2015#656

goat314 wrote:Arch City, I also find the juxtaposition of Tupac and MLK to be flawed. Although, I think Tupac was a brilliant poet, extraordinary entertainer, and great social commentator, his legacy is not comparable to MLK. We are talking about a reverend, scholar, civil rights activist, globally recognized humanitarian in MLK, Tupac self-identified as a thug, no matter how brilliant he may have had the potential to be. So that's why I asked if this was our new religion. Glorifying the tragic over the optimistic and hopeful. Has Afro-American leadership really devolved from MLK to Tupac?
Really, goat314? Are you serious? Who said anything about comparable legacies?

Again, Tef only drew a link between the two men in order to convey that no matter how one marches with dignity wearing suits; or marches with fury and rage wearing bandanas and sagging pants the cause is the same and in their cases, the end result was the same. Death by assassination. I can tell you didn't look at the Tef video I linked.

Also, the religion thing doesn't work for me goat314. It's not making a connection for me. Black people are still some of the most religious Christians in America - to a fault. And if you truly saw the protesters, you would not be sweeping with such a broad broom. You know nothing about the religion of any those people marching.

And religion - especially in America - has been a ruse to control and discriminate against people. Fu*k religion!

No one ever suggested that Pac was perfect. No he didn't get the Nobel Peace Prize, but both men, as all HUMANS do, battled demons. Yes, even Dr. King battled demons. We all do. At the end of the day, and I am not his biggest fan, but Tupac Shakur was respected and revered all over the world by his peers. I mean ALL over the world. From Baltimore to Brazil to Los Angeles to Lagos.

There are people who would take Tupac over MLK anyday, just as they took Malcolm X, Huey Newton and Stokely Carmichael over MLK because they were more defiant and/or militant.

Also, you are wrong. Tupac didn't only identify himself as a thug. I'm not going to do a dissertation on Tupac, but term "Thug" or "Thug Life" promoted by Tupac had various meanings - including the original. It also meant overcoming against the odds as well as demonstrating support for your fellow boys and the unprivileged.

If someone said, "I'm a thug", it could have meant "I'm an overcomer". Or "We're thugs" meaning "I've got your back" or "I understand where you come from". In Hip Hop, declaring oneself as a thug wasn't always about criminal behavior. In essence, the different meanings were attempts to reclaim the word, but also acknowledge triumph as well as saying "***** the system."

Pac knew he was a complex, yet conflicted man.

PostSep 05, 2015#657

goat314 wrote:OMG.....I'm speechless. I've worked in the black community as a special education teacher for years, now I'm a mental health professional that works with undeserved kids and children with developmental disabilities, black, brown, and white. I'm currently in the process of becoming a Board Certified Behavioral Analyst and I have aspirations of getting my PhD in clinical psychology, so I can continue to serve under privileged communities that need mental health services.

I also live in the black community, have a black mate, take care of my black family, and drive a black car, wear black shades, and prefer my coffee black....is that blacklivesmatters enough for you?
Seriously, please understand that I'm not attacking you nor am I trying to be a hater, but all it seems you are saying is "I, I, I, me, me, me!"

I am not questioning your "blackness" either, because seriously, I don't care. To be clear I'm asking how are you making a difference outside of your job? Surely, black people are not a monolith, but if you (and not just you, but goon bitches like Peggy Hubbard) are going complain about BLM, what are you all doing to change the game other than going to work, church, laying up with your lovers and opinionating in video and in newspapers?

Just asking.

Again, I am happy that you were published, but I think if you are going to attack BLM, which isn't a perfect (yet, noble efforted) movement, you all have to be doing something more constructive to back up your argument. What is your social service delivery model or plan of action? I've posed the same question to complaining whites and others. What are you doing to change the current climate? You can't be in attack mode with your drawers down. It's foolish.

People scream about change, but are doing absolutely NOTHING to facilitate change.

So again, I ask, since you have some problems with BLM, where's your movement? Where's your 501(c)3? Are you mentoring black children? Where's your counter? How are you uplifting? Empowering? Other than opinion, what are you doing that is fruitful and socially actionable? What are you doing to be a (or the) difference maker? A Change Agent?

We all have jobs in our fields to pay the bills as well as college degrees. I have two degrees and a minor in the social sciences myself. My ultimate goal is to open a 501c3 - a private non-profit - once I retire. But I also volunteer at a community center helping children with their homework. I answer phones while people do the work. I make sack lunches for hungry children and the elderly at the center. I have donated to charitable/social causes such as Amnesty International, St. Jude; and I have donated to Heal St. Louis and other bootstrap programs and organizations throughout the years. I have participated in marches and rallies, tweeted Missouri's Governor, St. Louis' mayor, Claire McCaskill and tons of others about policies and ideas. I have contacted my state and local political reps/delegations to voice concerns over policy and laws etc. etc. etc.

With my two little dollars and cents, in essence, I am making a direct contribution - outside of my paid job - to change by interfacing with those in need, by giving to organizations as well as by communicating with policy-makers who have the capacity to make a greater difference. I'm not only complaining, but I am putting both time and money where my mouth is.

Action.
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PostSep 05, 2015#658

goat314 wrote:Yeah, but at what point does personal accountability take over. Look I'm all for opportunity and I'm actually an advocate for free education, but the reality is many people do not take advantage of the opportunities they already have, whether that be from pure ignorance, lack of knowledge, self-pity, lack of determination, complacency etc. There are grants for college/trade schools etc. people take our student loans to pay for school, make the sacrifices necessary to change your condition. What exactly do blacklivesmatter think they are owed? Even if everybody was written a 250k check or we got all of these cop laws change, would that truly change the conditions of impoverished blacks in America? Is everybody going to be a winner then? Are some black people just lousy people? Are we allowed to say that?
As a mental health professional, surely you understand the detriment that internalized racism, poverty, crime, hopelessness, depression, etc. can have on a person's self-worth and motivation. I'm not advocating for a lack of accountability, but I don't think it's realistic to expect those without hope to suddenly sprout a sense of accountability or motivation—it's a learned behavior. The circumstances producing that hopelessness and lack of self worth have to be addressed as well.

I think that BLM is forcing people to talk about the disparity in how black people are treated by law enforcement versus non-black people, and that should spawn a deeper conversation about why the underlying systematic poverty and crime exists in urban black communities to a much greater extent than urban non-black communities. Unfortunately people would rather ignore the base of the iceberg. It's a complicated set of issues so I don't think it's fair to expect a grass-roots movement like BLM to produce an exacting list of actionable items. And no, writing everyone a 250K check probably won't solve anything because people who have lived their lives in poverty often have never learned the fiscal skills to manage it. Changing "cop laws" to stop targeting poor black communities for minor offenses and throwing them farther into debt is a good fist step, though, towards changing the conditions of impoverished blacks in America. I already said that there will always be a few people of all colors who won't take responsibility, who won't be winners, who will just be lousy people. However, if you accept that black people are no more inherently predisposed to loser-ism than people of any other skin color, the predominance of poverty in the black urban community should suggest to you that there are social forces at work.
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PostSep 05, 2015#659

^ Urban Dilettante, I agree with everything you said. Unfortunately, the problem I see with black lives matters is that they are asking people outside of the black community to solve problems that the outside community simply has no interest or motivation to solve. I do acknowledge that most if not ALL Afro-Americans suffer from some sort of Post Traumatic Slave Disorder, whether its the way they perceive themselves, other black people, or life in general and this a serious issue and major detriment to our community and America as a whole. That is why I ask "what is our solution"? I'm the first to admit that I don't have all the answers and I'm far from an armchair intellectual. How do we evolve from the more emotional aspects of this protest and move into practical decision making. I'm actually a fan of the Ferguson Commission and think that there are some really good things in it, but are the protesters on the ground motivated to ensure that these recommendations get implemented or are they looking for immediate gratification? There eventually has to be recognition that blocking highways, "peaceful" protest, and twitter rants (which I'm also guilty of :D ) are not going to tackle these big issues and at some point personal responsibility will have to take over. In the words of the late great Michael Jackson "I'm looking at the man in the mirror".
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PostSep 06, 2015#660

Just some brief thoughts on the BLM discussion.... it's entirely too early to judge BLM, an inchoate, fledgling movement largely being led by young people in the age of twitter. Where it goes nobody knows, but it has had some pretty impressive impacts already, all things considered. If I'd place it in the Civil RIghts Movement of the 50s/60s. I'd say it would be akin to SNCC in the early days.

Also I find the discussion of MLK a bit lacking... first, I think we may be forgetting that he was a radical who helped bring great disruption to commerce and people's daily lives, at times for months on end. He brought sustained direct action and was in the streets; he had to be to affect change. Also, he evolved.... the MLK of 1968 was working on economic/dignity-for-black workers issues that could be said to be rather far removed from the more fundamental issues of hard core segregation he was addressing in 1955. Obviously it is easy to claim MLK would support this or that contemporary issue, but I believe there is evidence that he would have supported the premise of BLM while perhaps wanting to share some tactical advice. As I look at it, the "Black Lives Matter" signs of 2015 aren't too far removed from the "I Am A Man" signs of 1968.

Anyway, the movement as a whole and individual actors within it certainly aren't beyond criticism, but I think there is "something there" there that has forced society to wake up a bit and confront some difficult issues; hopefully we'll be a better region and nation as a result. And when I see someone like Rasheen Aldridge, I think the kids of Saint Louis are alright.
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PostSep 06, 2015#661

^ very well said.
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PostSep 06, 2015#662

goat314 wrote:^ Thanks guys.

Arch City, this is the type of discussion I wanted to spark. I just think the whole Black Lives Matters thing is a little lopsided. Yes, I think it is tragic that many of these young black people are losing their lives, but we also have individuals that have been killed while brandishing stolen weapons and then people make a big uproar over them, as if they were truly an asset to the community. I just don't believe in that. Do I think Darren Wilson had to kill Michael Brown? No....but do I think Michael Brown was an angel? No...Do I think he deserved to die? No....but do I think he engaged in actions that ultimately led to his own demise and put him in a situation to run into a hot head like Darren Wilson? MOST DEFINITELY. We can talk about racism, police brutality, sexism, homophobia etc. etc. etc. all day, but at some point people have to be responsible for their own actions, because at the end of the day the only person you can really control and change is oneself.
I think the lack of trust in police is a big part of the problem. The police have proven multiple times that they'll lie in reports about shooting victims brandishing a weapon at them with video proof that no such thing occurred. So when police say these victims did something to prompt the shooting, why should that have any impact whatsoever on our views of the event?

Furthermore, if blacks are punished more severely than whites for transgressions, that's a problem. If black drug dealers are being imprisoned twice as long as white offenders for the same crime, it's not sufficient to say "they're dealing drugs, they have no right to complain!" There's an injustice that needs to be addressed.
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PostSep 07, 2015#663

roger wyoming II wrote:Just some brief thoughts on the BLM discussion.... it's entirely too early to judge BLM, an inchoate, fledgling movement largely being led by young people in the age of twitter. Where it goes nobody knows, but it has had some pretty impressive impacts already, all things considered. If I'd place it in the Civil RIghts Movement of the 50s/60s. I'd say it would be akin to SNCC in the early days.

Also I find the discussion of MLK a bit lacking... first, I think we may be forgetting that he was a radical who helped bring great disruption to commerce and people's daily lives, at times for months on end. He brought sustained direct action and was in the streets; he had to be to affect change. Also, he evolved.... the MLK of 1968 was working on economic/dignity-for-black workers issues that could be said to be rather far removed from the more fundamental issues of hard core segregation he was addressing in 1955. Obviously it is easy to claim MLK would support this or that contemporary issue, but I believe there is evidence that he would have supported the premise of BLM while perhaps wanting to share some tactical advice. As I look at it, the "Black Lives Matter" signs of 2015 aren't too far removed from the "I Am A Man" signs of 1968.

Anyway, the movement as a whole and individual actors within it certainly aren't beyond criticism, but I think there is "something there" there that has forced society to wake up a bit and confront some difficult issues; hopefully we'll be a better region and nation as a result. And when I see someone like Rasheen Aldridge, I think the kids of Saint Louis are alright.
I think you make good points. On Page 70 (last comment) I wrote in a nutshell about how Dr. King was considered to be a "troublemaker" by some whites and even some blacks; and how he was labeled a "communist" by his white and government detractors.

Labeling Dr. King a "communist" - just as the case with President Barack Obama now - was (and is) a simplier way of characterizing them radicals by some. Anyone who pushes for radical social and political reforms by going against the norm and status quo in this country tends to get labeled a "communist" or troublemakers in this country. Yes, King was a radical albeit a low-key, intellectual and deeply-spiritual one. But don't confuse "spiritual" with religion.

Further, Dr. King and other civil rights marchers of that movement were not met with tanks and ARs left over from overseas wars unlike what we saw in Ferguson. They were met with bombs, fires, shootings, lynchings, police batons and water hoses. And these were actions taken against "agitators" - who by all accounts were PEACEFUL protesters - many who were fashionably dressed - for that era. At the end of the day, all of it was violence. Cops in Ferguson pointed/trained weapons, shot at and arrested people who were not causing problems. Point is, responding forces neither cared about marcher's dignity when they wore suits nor while they were wearing saggy pants. Which is why Tef said, (paraphrasing) "In the eyes of some, Harriet Tubman is no different than Nicki Minaj".

With that said, most movements - in recent history especially - have been met with blowback and violence. Vietnam War Protest Movement, Occupy Wall Street Movement, The Tea Party Movement, Black Panther Party Movement, Gay Liberation Movement all have had violence and blowback so it's no surprise that BLM is having its blowback and scrutiny moments now. Most movements do.

Let's keep in mind, however, there's a difference between real BLM activism on the ground versus people who just "show up and show out" because they are simply pissed off. These types have shown up during every movement. See Tea Party shenanigans video below.

In the case of BLM, some may carry the BLM signs simply because they're caught up in their emotions and really do believe "Black Lives Matter". I've seen people of all creeds and colors carrying BLM signs. Meanwhile others like Deray McKesson and Tef Poe (with his Hands Up United, Inc.) are actually immersed in deeper activism (i.e. "the work"). In essence, they are deeper in the trenches than most who show up to block a highway or carry a sign.

BLM certainly was a hastily-formed movement. Most movements are formed with urgency. Then they evolve. BLM is evolving. They released a policy platform in late August and the media are finally jumping on it.

Today, Melissa Harris-Perry, discussed aspects of BLM's policy platform, called Campaign Zero, on MSNBC.



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PostSep 07, 2015#664

NY Times has a piece today recognizing reforms going on in Ferguson. Nice to see.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/07/opini ... yt&emc=rss
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PostAug 10, 2022#665

It's been eight years since #Ferguson.  How are we doing?
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PostAug 10, 2022#666

quincunx wrote: ↑
Aug 10, 2022
It's been eight years since #Ferguson the murder of Michael Brown.  How are we doing?
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PostAug 11, 2022#667

StlToday - Messenger: St. Louis case is a big step in ending the money grabs in municipal courts

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/col ... da333.html

PostMar 01, 2024#668

Stl PR - People jailed in Ferguson could receive money from a $4.5 million class-action suit


https://www.stlpr.org/government-politi ... ction-suit

NBC News - Ferguson, Missouri, agrees to pay $4.5 million to settle ‘debtors’ prison’ lawsuit


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-cour ... rcna141117
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