ok, my post was a bit harsh- to each his own... I just think Kinman is a joke and as someone who knows the history of CCC, I think it's sad someone like him is now leading it. He is NOT helping the improvement of downtown and in a way seems to have become a fancier version of Larry Rice or perhaps he thinks he's the new Percy Green.
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Jumping the barriers and anointing the stones with holy oil was a bit...uh...much.roger wyoming II wrote:^ What happened? All I heard about yesterday was of the peaceful protest at the fed courthouse.
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It's all good. I completely agree with your take on CCC. I feel bad for those who belong to the congregation but don't go along with the direction preferred by some in the church's leadership.jcity wrote:ok, my post was a bit harsh- to each his own... I just think Kinman is a joke and as someone who knows the history of CCC, I think it's sad someone like him is now leading it. He is NOT helping the improvement of downtown and in a way seems to have become a fancier version of Larry Rice or perhaps he thinks he's the new Percy Green.
^Raw Story - Two criminologists dispel some myths about Ferguson to explain what's behind the protests
Hey guys check out the article I wrote in the St. Louis American about who we make martyrs and personal responsibility.
http://www.stlamerican.com/news/columni ... AE.twitter
http://www.stlamerican.com/news/columni ... AE.twitter
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^Very thought-provoking.
Especially:
Especially:
If someone can be remembered as a “martyr” in the African-American community when they are killed doing wrong, then what has become of the new “religion” in our community?
Thanks, I just wanted to provide a perspective that was different than the majority of what is out there now. Feel free to re-tweet and share, I'm trying to evangelize the religion of "personal responsibility" and "clean living" as a penicillin for many ill, maybe not all but many.stlhistory wrote:^Very thought-provoking.
Especially:If someone can be remembered as a “martyr” in the African-American community when they are killed doing wrong, then what has become of the new “religion” in our community?
Excellent piece, Goat. I hope your message gets around. Honest, rational discussion is becoming hard to find, just when we need it the most.
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goat, did you already move to Florida? curious why there.... I think if I were ever to move to the South I'd probably pick Atlanta.
^ I'm most familiar with Florida and that's where I'm getting my masters degree and got my job offer. Not a big fan of Atlanta.
I do too, share it, tweet it, discuss it. I'm trying to start a serious debate. Some people even wanted to invite me back to St. Louis to debate the issue.framer wrote:Excellent piece, Goat. I hope your message gets around. Honest, rational discussion is becoming hard to find, just when we need it the most.
Congratulations, goat314!
I think it is great when some people can have their opinions published in an established and reputable newspaper such as the St. Louis American.
With that said, I don't agree in totality with your opinion nor with engirdling religion or politics solely around the word martyr.
The definition you present in your opinion is only one aspect of martyr's meaning.
I think it is great when some people can have their opinions published in an established and reputable newspaper such as the St. Louis American.
With that said, I don't agree in totality with your opinion nor with engirdling religion or politics solely around the word martyr.
The definition you present in your opinion is only one aspect of martyr's meaning.
Here is a broader definition of martyr:
Also found in: Idioms, Encyclopedia, Wikipedia.
mar·tyr (mär′tər)
n.
1. One who chooses to suffer death rather than renounce religious principles.
2. One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief, cause, or principle.
3.
a. One who endures great suffering: a martyr to arthritis.
b. One who makes a great show of suffering in order to arouse sympathy.
tr.v. mar·tyred, mar·tyr·ing, mar·tyrs
1. To make a martyr of, especially to put to death for devotion to religious beliefs.
2. To inflict great pain on; torment.
mar•tyr (ˈmɑr tər)
n.
1. a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.
2. a person who is put to death or suffers on behalf of a cause.
3. a person who undergoes severe or constant suffering.
v.t.
4. to make a martyr of, esp. by putting to death.
5. to torment; torture.
Source
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Nice article, goat! Or should I say, Josh... 
Perhaps "martyr" is the wrong word to describe some of those being killed. However, I think the spirit behind using the word "martyr" (even if it's the wrong word) is to point out that, as you mentioned, black people suffer disproportionate police targeting. Then when someone like Sandra Bland commits a non-serious crime and turns up dead, the fact that she wasn't sufficiently deferential is used as an excuse to dismiss what happened to her.
Perhaps "martyr" is the wrong word to describe some of those being killed. However, I think the spirit behind using the word "martyr" (even if it's the wrong word) is to point out that, as you mentioned, black people suffer disproportionate police targeting. Then when someone like Sandra Bland commits a non-serious crime and turns up dead, the fact that she wasn't sufficiently deferential is used as an excuse to dismiss what happened to her.
Keep in mind too that Martin Luther King and other now-respected Civil Rights-era leaders were vilified by whites - and even some blacks - although their protests were "graceful", non-violent and they were wearing suits. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was considered to be a troublemaker and a communist simply because he advocated for equality. He was also placed on FBI head J Edgar Hoover's Secret Enemies watchlist.
Additionally, when you look at what has happened over the last year, some CHANGE has come to St. Louis and Missouri.
Although there still exists some business-as-usual shenanigans, some new laws are now on the books because those in power were forced to listen. There's a new police shooting Civilian Oversight review board. The discussion of funding body cams has come up again. I don't have time to list all of the changes in local and states laws, procedures and protocols, the many new non-profits designed to educate and empower or the intense discourse that has happened since the unrest in Ferguson.
Needless to say, there would have been none of it without the social disruption - which was sometimes violent - on a scale St. Louis has never seen in her history.
Check out this video. Tef Poe on MSNBC discussing "respectability politics" and Black Lives Matter demonstrations.
As Tef said at the end, "Martin Luther King is just as dead as Tupac Shakur."
http://player.theplatform.com/p/7wvmTC/ ... ity_150902#
Additionally, when you look at what has happened over the last year, some CHANGE has come to St. Louis and Missouri.
Although there still exists some business-as-usual shenanigans, some new laws are now on the books because those in power were forced to listen. There's a new police shooting Civilian Oversight review board. The discussion of funding body cams has come up again. I don't have time to list all of the changes in local and states laws, procedures and protocols, the many new non-profits designed to educate and empower or the intense discourse that has happened since the unrest in Ferguson.
Needless to say, there would have been none of it without the social disruption - which was sometimes violent - on a scale St. Louis has never seen in her history.
Check out this video. Tef Poe on MSNBC discussing "respectability politics" and Black Lives Matter demonstrations.
As Tef said at the end, "Martin Luther King is just as dead as Tupac Shakur."
http://player.theplatform.com/p/7wvmTC/ ... ity_150902#
^ Thanks guys.
Arch City, this is the type of discussion I wanted to spark. I just think the whole Black Lives Matters thing is a little lopsided. Yes, I think it is tragic that many of these young black people are losing their lives, but we also have individuals that have been killed while brandishing stolen weapons and then people make a big uproar over them, as if they were truly an asset to the community. I just don't believe in that. Do I think Darren Wilson had to kill Michael Brown? No....but do I think Michael Brown was an angel? No...Do I think he deserved to die? No....but do I think he engaged in actions that ultimately led to his own demise and put him in a situation to run into a hot head like Darren Wilson? MOST DEFINITELY. We can talk about racism, police brutality, sexism, homophobia etc. etc. etc. all day, but at some point people have to be responsible for their own actions, because at the end of the day the only person you can really control and change is oneself.
Arch City, this is the type of discussion I wanted to spark. I just think the whole Black Lives Matters thing is a little lopsided. Yes, I think it is tragic that many of these young black people are losing their lives, but we also have individuals that have been killed while brandishing stolen weapons and then people make a big uproar over them, as if they were truly an asset to the community. I just don't believe in that. Do I think Darren Wilson had to kill Michael Brown? No....but do I think Michael Brown was an angel? No...Do I think he deserved to die? No....but do I think he engaged in actions that ultimately led to his own demise and put him in a situation to run into a hot head like Darren Wilson? MOST DEFINITELY. We can talk about racism, police brutality, sexism, homophobia etc. etc. etc. all day, but at some point people have to be responsible for their own actions, because at the end of the day the only person you can really control and change is oneself.
Yes MLK is dead, but he is respected the world over, because he died for a cause bigger than himself and had the moral authority. The masses of black people were in poverty, barred from public institutions, and subjugated to second class before the Civil Rights Acts of the 60s. The reason respectability politics is palpable for dare I say "the silent majority of black America" is because the burden of poverty and anguish is rather limited to a much smaller segment of the black community than it was just 50, 30, or even 15 years ago. There is a lot of talk about lack of opportunity in Black America, but the fact is ignored that African Americans, particularly women, are the fastest growing educated demographic in America and murder rates in even the roughest urban neighborhoods are actually downward trajectory despite recent spikes. The reason Black Lives Matter is not gaining steam, is because the vast majority of law abiding black people have never been subjected to police brutality, not saying a black man is not more likely than a white man in America, but saying that I know very few people personally that have been "jacked up" by the police for no reason and I know a lot of black people, hell I'M BLACK. I just think we need to inject some different ideas into the conversation. For the record, I'm probably more conservative than a lot of people on this board.arch city wrote:Keep in mind too that Martin Luther King and other now-respected Civil Rights-era leaders were vilified by whites - and even some blacks - although their protests were "graceful", non-violent and they were wearing suits. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was considered to be a troublemaker and a communist simply because he advocated for equality. He was also placed on FBI head J Edgar Hoover's Secret Enemies watchlist.
Additionally, when you look at what has happened over the last year, some CHANGE has come to St. Louis and Missouri.
Although there is exist some business-as-usual shenanigans, some new laws are now on the books because those in power were forced to listen. I don't have time to list all of the changes in local and states laws, procedures and protocols, the many new non-profits designed to educate and empower or the intense discourse that has happened since the unrest in Ferguson.
Needless to say, there would have been none of it without the social disruption - which was sometimes violent - on a scale St. Louis has never seen in her history.
Check out this video. Tef Poe on MSNBC discussing "respectability politics" and Black Lives Matter demonstrations.
As Tef said at the end, "Martin Luther King is just as dead as Tupac Shakur."
http://player.theplatform.com/p/7wvmTC/ ... ity_150902#
Truthfully goat314, I'm bored. I could skillfully address many of your points, but I won't. It's certainly not because I can't, but it is because I'm bored.
All of what you've lamented here has been discussed ad nauseam on social media, network news, public forums - including this one, on university campuses and by the POTUS etc. etc. Yet, it's good for people to see that black people aren't monolithic.
I'm really bored though.
Let's talk action including hands-on and practical solutions.
Seriously...not to be smug, but we could discuss problems all day.
You have a problem with BLM, but where's your movement? Where's your 501 (c)3? Are you mentoring? Where's your counter? How are you uplifting? Empowering? Other than opinion, what are you doing that is fruitful and socially actionable?
What are you doing to be a (or the) difference maker? A Change Agent?
All of what you've lamented here has been discussed ad nauseam on social media, network news, public forums - including this one, on university campuses and by the POTUS etc. etc. Yet, it's good for people to see that black people aren't monolithic.
I'm really bored though.
Let's talk action including hands-on and practical solutions.
Seriously...not to be smug, but we could discuss problems all day.
You have a problem with BLM, but where's your movement? Where's your 501 (c)3? Are you mentoring? Where's your counter? How are you uplifting? Empowering? Other than opinion, what are you doing that is fruitful and socially actionable?
What are you doing to be a (or the) difference maker? A Change Agent?
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Engirdling?arch city wrote:With that said, I don't agree in totality with your opinion nor with engirdling religion or politics solely around the word martyr.
(whips out online dictionary)
en·gir·dle (ĕn-gûr′dl)
tr.v. en·gir·dled, en·gir·dling, en·gir·dles
To encircle or surround with or as if with a girdle.
I'm a gonna try to start using this word!
Also goat314, to back track a little.....I think Tef's comment of,
Many believe there was a government conspiracy to assassinate Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. just as many believe there was a conspiracy by the government to kill Tupac Shakur.
So no matter how reverent MLK - with his peaceful marches and suits - became to his early detractors or how irreverent Tupac Shakur was in some people's eyes, both are still dead.
Tupac's aunt, Assata Shakur, who was a leading figure in the 70s Black Liberation Army (BLA), was accused/convicted of killing one cop and wounding another on the New Jersey Turnpike. She escaped prison and fled to Cuba where she still resides.
Before his death, Tupac himself was vehemently against the police and the United States government and expressed it in his music while at the same time having a growing influence on poverty-stricken and ghetto youth.
Some have speculated that Tupac was murdered because of his growing influence on black and brown youth and his death was vengence because of his aunt's cop murder. It is widely believed the East coast-West coast beef between rappers was constructed as a cover for his murder. Like King's assassination, Tupac's murder has never been solved. Dead is dead.
Point is, every movement or civil rights group that has ever existed in the United States has faced scrutiny and scorn. BLM is no different.
So regardless of how you march or protest, you can still end up dead because you challenged "the establishment". Pants up or pants down you're still vunerable and could face fatal consequences. MLK and likely Tupac proves so.
......seems to have gone over your head. No offense intended."Martin Luther King is just as dead as Tupac"
Many believe there was a government conspiracy to assassinate Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. just as many believe there was a conspiracy by the government to kill Tupac Shakur.
So no matter how reverent MLK - with his peaceful marches and suits - became to his early detractors or how irreverent Tupac Shakur was in some people's eyes, both are still dead.
Tupac's aunt, Assata Shakur, who was a leading figure in the 70s Black Liberation Army (BLA), was accused/convicted of killing one cop and wounding another on the New Jersey Turnpike. She escaped prison and fled to Cuba where she still resides.
Before his death, Tupac himself was vehemently against the police and the United States government and expressed it in his music while at the same time having a growing influence on poverty-stricken and ghetto youth.
Some have speculated that Tupac was murdered because of his growing influence on black and brown youth and his death was vengence because of his aunt's cop murder. It is widely believed the East coast-West coast beef between rappers was constructed as a cover for his murder. Like King's assassination, Tupac's murder has never been solved. Dead is dead.
Point is, every movement or civil rights group that has ever existed in the United States has faced scrutiny and scorn. BLM is no different.
So regardless of how you march or protest, you can still end up dead because you challenged "the establishment". Pants up or pants down you're still vunerable and could face fatal consequences. MLK and likely Tupac proves so.
I'd really like to share your piece, Goat, but honestly, as a white guy, I just don't feel that it's my place to do it. For example:goat314 wrote:I do too, share it, tweet it, discuss it. I'm trying to start a serious debate. Some people even wanted to invite me back to St. Louis to debate the issue.framer wrote:Excellent piece, Goat. I hope your message gets around. Honest, rational discussion is becoming hard to find, just when we need it the most.
Most of my Facebook friends are the knee-jerk liberal types, and I always get shouted-down whenever I'm not in lock-step with the accepted point of view (i.e., the cops are always wrong, and black people are always the victim). White liberals are appalled any time a white guy dares criticize black people, for any reason. We run the risk of being cast as racist bigots who "just don't get it", when all we're really trying to do is to continue "the conversation".
It's frustrating, and I'm uncomfortable saying this even in an anonymous online forum, but it seems to me that white people simply aren't welcome in this debate.
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^ no offense, framer—and I'm a white guy too—but I don't think you and I really do "get it" and I think it's pretty audacious to suppose that we do. i also don't think that being black necessarily implies that one "gets it" depending on their socioeconomic background. the problem that I see with the "conversation" that you're talking about is that it's not really a conversation. conversations involve listening, processing, and responding instead of just chastising, which is the case, as i see it, with the equally knee-jerk "just be more responsible, duh." in reality there's much more nuance.