urbanSTL

I also agree that Schnucks is going about this the right way.



If you look at "niche" grocers in this country - those like Whole Foods, City Grocers (downtown), Trader Joes, and Straubs Markets - they are heavily geared/designed towards the "prepared" food items, catering and specialty items. They are not geared around just groceries. Most of these stores are found in or around urban centers and carry other groceries (like City Groers does) to keep supply available for their customers as well... but their main focus is "prepared" and "specialty" food items.



I think Schnucks is probably the best name in STL to enter the downtown arena BECAUSE of the name and most see that a "big" STL name is taking interest and opening downtown!



Let's not make assumptions that Schnucks is "tanking" this project just because you or a survey group didn't like what was being brought into their new store concept. Schnucks is committed to this store and has been for awhile. If it is a larger version of City Grocers - great! Schnucks didn't stop City Grocers from expanding nor have they curved City Grocers business (as of yet). AND YES, Schnucks is a business ... businesses make money and that is what businnesses are in business to do. City Grocers isn't on the corner for the good of servicing residents... they have to make a profit too... every company does. That's business. Whether you like Schnucks or not, they are a business - whether you think they are servicing their customers or not (or the way you want them to service you) is another story. But it seems like they are making the steps in providing a store to be profitable and servicable for the market it is going to serve. They are spending 7.56 million dollars on this store... not a small drop in the bucket to open without insight. It is doing just that because it is a BUSINESS!

citywatcher wrote:


City Grocer had the downtown residents in mind, not profits



Schnucks SUCKS bigtime

City Grocer did have the residents in mind.... Getting residents to buy condos for sale by City Grocer pioneer Craig Heller...

touche.



So true!



and, in addition, City Grocers wouldn't still be there today if they weren't making $$$

^You don't need to post six times. We get it.



The post was probably combined because you are supposed to go back and edit posts with more info like that, not post again. That rule is not enforced much, but it must have been in this case.

gsp9993 - I sent you an email (PM) when I edited it and added it onto your first post made just minutes before.





Posting Members:



This is exactly how rumors start. These forums are not for hearsay, false accusations or rumors. If there is factual information and news regarding a project on these threads - post it.

gsp's expectations of urban groceries are not in line with reality. matguy's analysis is correct. when it comes to urban renewal, a little maturity goes a long way.

^Huh? From the posts I read, which may have been altered I dunno, he seems to simply be expecting to be able to buy actual groceries at the downtown Schnuck's grocery store. Are you suggesting that that is unrealistic?



gsp9993, did anyone ask, or did they say anything, in your focus group about beer and liquor sales? I haven't been able to get a definitive answer from Schnuck's, and apparently - from someone in a (I'm guessing) different focus group - the people running the focus group refused to comment on whether they would be selling single cans and bottles of beer, wine coolers, etc., or bottles of liquor smaller than a fifth.



Just curious, but why is everyone so focused on just downtown residents and office workers? You do realize that there are quite a few people living north, south, and west of downtown, for whom this would be the closest grocery store? If parking is free, and the store is open after 5 PM, why wouldn't Soulard and Lafayette Square residents, for example, patronize this store, rather than driving out to the Lindell store or elsewhere? This is all assuming, of course, that it will actually be a grocery store.

Hey Blues...

Does City Grocers sell alcohol at all? I think wine is sold there - but any other? I don't think so - but not sure.



I kind of like the states that sell liquor (any type) in designated package stores and I think they reap some benefits off of them too... not sure.



I think Schnucks will probably keep it upscale like Whole Foods, Trader Joes, etc... when it comes to liquor.

matguy70 wrote:Hey Blues...

Does City Grocers sell alcohol at all? I think wine is sold there - but any other? I don't think so - but not sure.

Yes, they have six-packs of bottles, single beer bottles (only premium beer as far as I can recall), lots of wine, and a rack or two of liquor and mixers. I don't recall ever seeing any single cans of beer or bottles of liquor smaller than a fifth - if they do have smaller bottles of liquor, I'm guessing they are out of sight, under the counter, and they choose to whom they sell them.

matguy70 wrote:I think Schnucks will probably keep it upscale like Whole Foods, Trader Joes, etc... when it comes to liquor.

Why do you think that?

So City Grocers hasn't really had a huge problem with liquor sales.

(at least I haven't heard or seen any - as I shop there always).



I think that the key word here is keeping the store "upscale".

^You are both stating the obvious. However, you can still do at least 95% of your grocery shopping at Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, Jewel, Potash Bros., Klein's, Ralph's, Shaw's, Safeway, City Market, and any other urban grocer. And locally, Straub's seems to do a pretty good job of creating such a store. These small footprint, urban stores may have a lot of prepared foods and specialty items, and they may do catering, but the "focus" is still on groceries. And if you need a measurement of that "focus", just look at the square footage devoted to the former versus that devoted to the latter. I guarantee groceries win every time.



In any case, wasn't Schnuck's granted financial assistance and tax incentives so they could open a downtown grocery store, not a delicatessen with a salad bar and a few essentials? There are plenty of places downtown to buy lunch and dinner, but there are no places for residents to do the bulk of their grocery shopping, and that is always near the top of the list of things residents say downtown lacks, hence the incentives. Now people on this urban forum are actually suggesting that it is unrealistic to expect that downtown can support a full-service grocery store, even with incentives? :-s



So the fundamental question is this: Does Schnuck's believe downtown can support a full-service grocery store, with assistance and incentives, or not? If that is not what they are planning, then maybe they shouldn't get incentives.

I know what you're talking about. and I think there are easier and cheaper places to get those now around downtown than hiking into the CBD to get it. I SERIOUSLY don't think that is going to be an issue.

and it would be a change in policy for them to do otherwise.

This entire store concept is a "change in policy".



and I don't think Schnucks is planning a deli/salad bar store here. I spoke to Schnucks (who BTW actually called me back on my phoen the same day) about the store. The store is still on schedule to open in the Spring and will feature a full line of groceries, just not as many of brand varities that other [Schuncks] stores offer. Think Straubs and Trade Joes.

jlblues wrote:^Huh? From the posts I read, which may have been altered I dunno, he seems to simply be expecting to be able to buy actual groceries at the downtown Schnuck's grocery store. Are you suggesting that that is unrealistic?

Yes, an urban grocery. To buy groceries. A 20k sq/ft store can't offer the depth of a traditional store, but it will still offer the basics.

jlblues wrote:gsp9993, did anyone ask, or did they say anything, in your focus group about beer and liquor sales? I haven't been able to get a definitive answer from Schnuck's, and apparently - from someone in a (I'm guessing) different focus group - the people running the focus group refused to comment on whether they would be selling single cans and bottles of beer, wine coolers, etc., or bottles of liquor smaller than a fifth.

Hopefully the answer to that is no.

^From Schnuck's own press release:

Today, leaders of Schnuck Markets, Inc. announced plans to build a new, small urban food store and specialty market to serve residents and commuters in the heart of downtown St. Louis. The new store, to be located on the lower level of the Ninth Street Garage, at the corner of 9th and Olive Streets (63101), could open in late 2008 or early 2009.

Schnuck said this store will be a uniquely-designed fresh food market that will include a pharmacy for customers’ prescription and over-the-counter medicine needs. “We’re hoping to build a two-level store, and the configuration of the space will allow for the creation of a cosmopolitan and urban feel along with amenities you won’t find anywhere else in St. Louis,” he said.



According to Schnuck, the store’s lower level will include approximately 20,800 square feet of fresh and specialty foods including natural and organics. “Our customers will be able to do their complete food shopping in the new store,” he said.



Additionally, it will include a floral shop, Kaldi’s Coffee bar, service meat and seafood departments and several prepared food stations including a salad bar, Asian hot-food bar, barbecue bar, pizza station, chef’s grill and a made-to-order sandwich shop. Overhead, a 6,303-square-foot mezzanine will hold an extensive wine department with a tapas tasting area and seating space.

http://www.schnucks.com/pressreleases/20080220-a.html



A) The store is a little over 27,000 sf. That is almost thrice the size of Tesco's Fresh & Easy, twice the size of the average Trader Joe's, and is on the lower end of the size range of Whole Paycheck.



2) Gsp's observations are completely consistent with the quotes above. There appears to be a much, much greater emphasis on the office worker/lunch crowd than on groceries. Note that Schnuck's never refers to the store as a "grocery" store, only the politicians do. Schnuck's calls it a "food store and specialty market". And then there is this quote, “Our customers will be able to do their complete food shopping in the new store,” he said.



Most of the things listed, such as a floral shop, coffee shop, made-to-order sandwiches, chef's grill, prepared Asian food, pizza, barbecue, etc. are things that already exist in abundance downtown. The pharmacy is great, and the seafood and meat departments could be great (hopefully it won't just be all prepared, ready-to-cook stuff). But what downtown really needs is a place where residents can buy frozen orange juice, toilet paper, baking powder, glass cleaner, olive oil, light bulbs, coffee filters, tomato paste, a can opener, butter, dishwasher detergent, dried pasta, aluminum foil, frozen peas, canned soup, batteries, etc.

jlblues wrote:A) The store is a little over 27,000 sf. That is twice the size of the average Trader Joe's.

Excellent! It will be great to have an urban grocer in downtown St. Louis that is twice the size of the average Trader Joe's. Just imagine all the groceries and services they can offer....

jlblues wrote:2) Gsp's observations are completely consistent with the quotes above. There appears to be a much, much greater emphasis on the office worker/lunch crowd than on groceries. Note that Schnuck's never refers to the store as a "grocery" store, only the politicians do. Schnuck's calls it a "food store and specialty market". And then there is this quote, “Our customers will be able to do their complete food shopping in the new store,” he said.

GSP appears confused in stating, "The new Schnucks store is not a grocery store, but rather a larger version of City Grocers. The footprint and services were almost identical, except larger with a small pharmacy."



If City Grocers is an urban grocer and Schnuck's is a larger version of City Grocers (4x larger, in fact), wouldn't Schnucks also be an urban grocery store? I fail to understand the logic.



I have no clue what the heck he's saying so I'll defer to Schnuck's actual plans which have been provided. Perhaps GSP is missing the obvious distinction between urban grocers and traditional grocery stores. I'm sorry, but it's not possible to fit a 55k sq foot operation inside a 27k sq ft one.

jlblues wrote:....but what downtown really needs is a place where residents can buy toilet paper, baking powder, olive oil, dishwasher detergent, tomato paste, a can opener, butter, light bulbs, dried pasta, aluminum foil, frozen peas, canned soup, batteries, etc.

Of course. City Grocers sells most of this now. Seeing as Schnuck's is 4x larger, it should stand to reason that Schnuck's will be able to market an even greater variety of items.

^ You forgot to label someone an idiot.

innov8ion wrote:GSP appears confused in stating, "The new Schnucks store is not a grocery store, but rather a larger version of City Grocers. The footprint and services were almost identical, except larger with a small pharmacy."



If City Grocers is an urban grocer and Schnuck's is a larger version of City Grocers, wouldn't Schnucks also be an urban grocer?

I see why you are so confused. You think because the words "city" and "grocers" are in the name, then City Grocers must be an urban grocer. It is not, and I don't believe Gsp ever referred to them as such. City Grocers is a small market with a deli counter. If they had expanded into the Syndicate, then they might have been able to provide more items that you would expect to find on a typical grocery shopping list, but they are far from that now.

innov8ion wrote:I'm sorry, but it's not possible to fit a 55k sq foot operation inside a 27k sq ft

Nope and noone ever said anything like that. But it makes it really hard to squeeze any kind of grocery operation into 27,000 sf when half that space is taken up with tapas tasting areas, chef's grills, and flower, coffee, and sandwich shops.

innov8ion wrote:

jlblues wrote:But what downtown really needs is a place where residents can buy frozen orange juice, toilet paper, baking powder, glass cleaner, olive oil, light bulbs, coffee filters, tomato paste, a can opener, butter, dishwasher detergent, dried pasta, aluminum foil, frozen peas, canned soup, batteries, etc.

Of course. What makes you think they're not?

Schnuck's own press releases, other quotes and statements about the store plans in the media, information gleaned from the focus group Q&A sessions, and my knowledge of the retail concept they are trying to copy.



If downtown and surrounding area residents want these kinds of things in this new store, they had better make their wishes known to Schnuck's, and soon, because that does not appear to be what they intend.

^^ Have you thought that economics may be dictating floor space utilization? Perhaps we couldn't be talking about a Schnuck's downtown without a greater emphasis on higher margin services.



I think we're both curious to see the floor plan. In the end, hopefully there will be a good mix of groceries and useful services.