Shopping carts downtown sounds like a horrible idea. The last thing we need are carts obstructing traffic or parking.
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Doug wrote:Shopping carts downtown sounds like a horrible idea. The last thing we need are carts obstructing traffic or parking.
Where did you get the idea there would be any?
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I don't think you'll see the same level of lazyness with carts here as you would in other areas where cars aren't a necessity. You'll have the odd one go astray, but I don't think they'll go missing by the dozens. If they put radio locks on them it'll stop the homeless from taking them.
Besides, it'll be really easy to find them if they do go missing. Just check the NLEC.
Besides, it'll be really easy to find them if they do go missing. Just check the NLEC.
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migueltejada wrote:I don't think you'll see the same level of lazyness with carts here as you would in other areas where cars aren't a necessity. You'll have the odd one go astray, but I don't think they'll go missing by the dozens. If they put radio locks on them it'll stop the homeless from taking them.
Besides, it'll be really easy to find them if they do go missing. Just check the NLEC.
They oughta go Aldi's style and make you put in a quarter to release it from the rack. I thought that was pretty annoying when I first went, but then just thought it was genius. If nothing else, the homeless might come and put the carts up to collect the quarter.
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^ The do the same thing here in inner-urban areas (dollar or 2 dollar coin). Problem is, for someone with no home, it's a very small price to pay for something mobile to carry your stuff in.
They'll need the radio locks.
They'll need the radio locks.
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migueltejada wrote:^ The do the same thing here in inner-urban areas (dollar or 2 dollar coin). Problem is, for someone with no home, it's a very small price to pay for something mobile to carry your stuff in.
They'll need the radio locks.
When I had occasion to shop at the Safeway in downtown Portland, the shopping carts were not allowed out the front door.
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Downtown STL Fan wrote:...does it mean you'd rather see them not come downtown and keep City Grocers as the only grocery store? I think the Schnuck's store will be a very positive addition to downtown and I guess we'll have to wait and see which of us is right in their thinking.
jlblues reponded:
Stop making stuff up. Nowhere did I say that Schnuck's wouldn't be a positive addition to downtown, or that I'd rather see them not come downtown. What I said was, that I see no evidence that Schnuck's understands the urban market, and many of their stores in the city are an embarassment.
My response:
Making stuff up? How can you seriously expect me to believe you think Schnuck's moving downtown is a positive addition when the only positive thing you have to say about them is that they're good at being a big fish in a small pond? I've seldom seen anyone spout off as negativesly as you and as far as Schnuck's goes, you seem to be obsessively negative.
I might be more inclined to take you seriously if I had some understanding of your background. Do you have extensive experience in the grocery business? That you have an opinion and convey it with passion is undisputed, but I'm wondering what backs it up.
^Have you shopped for groceries regularly at the South Grand and Lindell Schnuck's stores, and then also at Schnuck's stores in any suburb, over the last decade or so? Did you ever shop at the previous downtown Schnuck's store? If not, then you have no idea what I'm talking about, or why I feel I am completely justified in questioning their judgment and commitment when it comes to selling groceries inside the city limits.
And not that I care one whit whether or not you take me seriously, but I do happen to believe that any retail that opens downtown short of a cheap liquor store or a sex appliances store would probably be a positive addition, no matter who manages it, even if it only lasts 6 months. But that has nothing to do with my point - which you seem unable to grasp - that I do not believe the "Schnuck's boys" have any clue as to how to run a viable urban grocery store, and I question their level of commitment. So while any grocery store opening downtown would be a positive addition, it is not difficult to imagine how it could quickly turn into a negative.
What happens if there is so much scum hanging out in and around the store that downtown residents find it preferable to get in their car and drive elsewhere, and downtown workers simply avoid it? What happens if the quality and selection is so poor that anyone and everyone that can avoid the store, does so? What happens if the store turns out to be simply a scaled-down, yet more expensive, version of their suburban stores, so there is no reason for downtown workers to stop there on their way home? And what happens if Schnuck's actually comes up with a nearly perfect concept for a downtown grocery, but for a variety of reasons, it still isn't even close to being profitable the first couple years? Will they stick with it? Will they adapt? Will they actually listen to feedback? Or will they just apply the same policy of cutting costs to the bone, "deferring" maintenance, and selling single cans of beer and pints of liquor to maximize revenue, that they have at their other less-than-profitable city stores? If that happens, this store will go downhill fast, it could quickly become an embarrassment, and it could actually do more harm than good to the overall downtown renaissance.
And not that I care one whit whether or not you take me seriously, but I do happen to believe that any retail that opens downtown short of a cheap liquor store or a sex appliances store would probably be a positive addition, no matter who manages it, even if it only lasts 6 months. But that has nothing to do with my point - which you seem unable to grasp - that I do not believe the "Schnuck's boys" have any clue as to how to run a viable urban grocery store, and I question their level of commitment. So while any grocery store opening downtown would be a positive addition, it is not difficult to imagine how it could quickly turn into a negative.
What happens if there is so much scum hanging out in and around the store that downtown residents find it preferable to get in their car and drive elsewhere, and downtown workers simply avoid it? What happens if the quality and selection is so poor that anyone and everyone that can avoid the store, does so? What happens if the store turns out to be simply a scaled-down, yet more expensive, version of their suburban stores, so there is no reason for downtown workers to stop there on their way home? And what happens if Schnuck's actually comes up with a nearly perfect concept for a downtown grocery, but for a variety of reasons, it still isn't even close to being profitable the first couple years? Will they stick with it? Will they adapt? Will they actually listen to feedback? Or will they just apply the same policy of cutting costs to the bone, "deferring" maintenance, and selling single cans of beer and pints of liquor to maximize revenue, that they have at their other less-than-profitable city stores? If that happens, this store will go downhill fast, it could quickly become an embarrassment, and it could actually do more harm than good to the overall downtown renaissance.
You certainly are an ardent defender of Schnuck's. Do you have extensive experience in the grocery business? I might be more inclined to take you seriously if I understood what stokes your fervor.Downtown STL Fan wrote:I might be more inclined to take you seriously if I had some understanding of your background. Do you have extensive experience in the grocery business? That you have an opinion and convey it with passion is undisputed, but I'm wondering what backs it up.
Perhaps an analogy will clarify my concerns...?
If there was an announcement tomorrow that someone was going to open an upscale, urban, wine and cigar shop on Washington Avenue - think Brennan's in the CWE - designed to appeal to downtown loft residents and office workers, almost everyone on this forum would be ecstatic, right? We would all declare our support, would wish it the best, and would be that much more bullish on the future of downtown, right?
Now, certainly you would all be just as ecstatic, and would be just as optimistic, if that "someone" turned out to be Fred Teutenberg of Dirt Cheap fame? Afterall, Fred has made a fortune selling "wine" and tobacco products, so who are we to question his judgment? He clearly knows what he is doing, right?
If there was an announcement tomorrow that someone was going to open an upscale, urban, wine and cigar shop on Washington Avenue - think Brennan's in the CWE - designed to appeal to downtown loft residents and office workers, almost everyone on this forum would be ecstatic, right? We would all declare our support, would wish it the best, and would be that much more bullish on the future of downtown, right?
Now, certainly you would all be just as ecstatic, and would be just as optimistic, if that "someone" turned out to be Fred Teutenberg of Dirt Cheap fame? Afterall, Fred has made a fortune selling "wine" and tobacco products, so who are we to question his judgment? He clearly knows what he is doing, right?
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jlblues wrote:Now, certainly you would all be just as ecstatic, and would be just as optimistic, if that "someone" turned out to be Fred Teutenberg of Dirt Cheap fame? Afterall, Fred has made a fortune selling "wine" and tobacco products, so who are we to question his judgment? He clearly knows what he is doing, right?
I hear he's holding out for an anchor space in Ballpark Village.
ThreeOneFour wrote:jlblues wrote:Now, certainly you would all be just as ecstatic, and would be just as optimistic, if that "someone" turned out to be Fred Teutenberg of Dirt Cheap fame? Afterall, Fred has made a fortune selling "wine" and tobacco products, so who are we to question his judgment? He clearly knows what he is doing, right?
I hear he's holding out for an anchor space in Ballpark Village.
Remember, the more you drink, the better BPV looks!
-RBB
BACK TO NEWS/CONVERSATION REGARDING DOWNTOWN GROCERS.
Thank You.
Thank You.
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What happens if there is so much scum hanging out in and around the store that downtown residents find it preferable to get in their car and drive elsewhere, and downtown workers simply avoid it? What happens if the quality and selection is so poor that anyone and everyone that can avoid the store, does so? What happens if the store turns out to be simply a scaled-down, yet more expensive, version of their suburban stores, so there is no reason for downtown workers to stop there on their way home? And what happens if Schnuck's actually comes up with a nearly perfect concept for a downtown grocery, but for a variety of reasons, it still isn't even close to being profitable the first couple years? Will they stick with it? Will they adapt? Will they actually listen to feedback? Or will they just apply the same policy of cutting costs to the bone, "deferring" maintenance, and selling single cans of beer and pints of liquor to maximize revenue, that they have at their other less-than-profitable city stores? If that happens, this store will go downhill fast, it could quickly become an embarrassment, and it could actually do more harm than good to the overall downtown renaissance.
That's a lot of what-ifs, some of which are irrelevant:
Scum? Last I checked there are loitering laws, and I'd suspect the CID and SLPD would be on that pretty quickly. This is a highly visible are targeted area for re-development by City Hall (aka NOT the 7-11). I sincerely doubt the undesirables would be allowed to hang out there for long, if at all.
The store most likely WILL BE a scaled down, more expensive store - it has to be! It's a smaller space in a more expensive rental market. But you pay for convenience of doing your grocery shopping on your lunch break or on the wya back to your car, versus driving out of your way to the store on your way home, fighting parking, waiting in line, etc. This store, like all urban grocery stores, are going to do the majority of their business in-between the hours of 11-1 and 5-6pm. People will pay the small difference in price (provided it's just a small difference).
The last one is a very real concern, but this could be easily addressed, depending on what the lease agreement or permits are written into it. I'm not sure how US planning works for permits, but here, we can mandate store upkeep and other things, to the satisfaction of local government. I know that's a bit heavy handed for the US, but I figure the owner sure wouldn't want their property values dropping due to a crap tenant that doesn't provide maintenance and attracts bums, and would write provisions into the lease requiring certain things or risk losing their lease. I'd do that anyways, if I was a land owner.
Uhhhh, yeah...because the city has been so successful with that to date, at places such as St. Louis Centre, Washington Avenue, Union Station, Lucas Park, The Main Library, various Metro stations, and ummm...oh yeah, other Schnuck's stores. It is one thing to browse for a book next to a smelly homeless person. It's a whole different thing to have to visit the salad bar next to one. Besides, you know damn well the police in this city aren't going to do anything, especially if said scum has so much as 33 cents to spend on a donut, or...$1.50 for a cold 24-ounce malt liquor.migueltejada wrote:That's a lot of what-ifs, some of which are irrelevant:
Scum? Last I checked there are loitering laws, and I'd suspect the CID and SLPD would be on that pretty quickly. This is a highly visible are targeted area for re-development by City Hall (aka NOT the 7-11). I sincerely doubt the undesirables would be allowed to hang out there for long, if at all.
Schnuck's is paying around $3 million for buildout of the space, and they are leasing it for $9 a square foot. I don't think their prices for identical products will have to be significantly higher at the downtown store to realize the same margin, but I bet they will be.migueltejada wrote:The store most likely WILL BE a scaled down, more expensive store - it has to be! It's a smaller space in a more expensive rental market.
The garage is owned by the Missouri Development Finance Board, so, the state of Missouri. I'm not sure they care much about downtown property values, and even if they did, well, it's the state of Missouri. Retail property management isn't exactly their forte. And if they have hired, or will hire, someone to manage the retail space, I'm guessing that that someone is DESCO.migueltejada wrote:The last one is a very real concern, but this could be easily addressed, depending on what the lease agreement or permits are written into it. I'm not sure how US planning works for permits, but here, we can mandate store upkeep and other things, to the satisfaction of local government. I know that's a bit heavy handed for the US, but I figure the owner sure wouldn't want their property values dropping due to a crap tenant that doesn't provide maintenance and attracts bums, and would write provisions into the lease requiring certain things or risk losing their lease. I'd do that anyways, if I was a land owner.
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^ sounds to me that your problem then clearly isn't with schnucks at all, but rather the City of St. Louis itself? Homeless people are everywhere - why is that suddenly schnuck's fault? And what would you like them to do about it in the event a few manage to find their way into the store?
Seriously, if I replaced "schnucks" with "downtown", you'd sound little different from the suburbanites I suspect you disdain!
Seriously, if I replaced "schnucks" with "downtown", you'd sound little different from the suburbanites I suspect you disdain!
No, you are missing the point. I was responding to this comment.migueltejada wrote:^ sounds to me that your problem then clearly isn't with schnucks at all, but rather the City of St. Louis itself? <snip>
Seriously, if I replaced "schnucks" with "downtown", you'd sound little different from the suburbanites I suspect you disdain!
We know how the SLPD will respond (or, more accurately, not respond), but that isn't what this thread is about. When it comes to their property, it is ultimately the responsibility of Schnuck's and whoever is managing the garage. The question is how will they respond.Last I checked there are loitering laws, and I'd suspect the CID and SLPD would be on that pretty quickly. This is a highly visible are targeted area for re-development by City Hall (aka NOT the 7-11). I sincerely doubt the undesirables would be allowed to hang out there for long, if at all.
It isn't, but they are still going to have to deal with the issue. They can't just blame the police.migueltejada wrote:Homeless people are everywhere - why is that suddenly schnuck's fault?
Now this is a valid question. I think you are underestimating the problem though. It isn't going to be "a few" managing "to find their way into the store". It is a grocery store, not an upscale downtown restaurant, furniture store, or fashion boutique. If undesirables enter any of the latter, it is pretty obvious that they have no business there. But grocery stores, by their very nature, serve the entire community.migueltejada wrote:And what would you like them to do about it in the event a few manage to find their way into the store?
So, to whom you can and cannot refuse service, and who you can and cannot remove from your property, is a very fine line, on the other side of which lurks the ACLU, NAACP, and various other attention-seeking local and national personalities. It isn't difficult to imagine, for example, that Larry Rice might send forth his minions to besiege the store in the hopes of provoking a heavy-handed response, which he could then use for political leverage.
Of course, urban groceries all over the country have to deal with these issues, and worse. And most seem to do so successfully, in part, because they are committed to resolving the problem and they (and their team of lawyers) have significant experience doing so. Again, the Schnuck's management team's track record indicates to me that they are neither prepared, nor committed, to handling such issues.
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Wasn't there a Schnucks DT in the 80s? What was it like? Was there an issue with undesireables?
^Yes, just north of downtown.
The seventh and eigth circles of Hell. To be fair, that was just the liquor and snack food sections. The rest of the store wasn't as bad, more like the fifth circle.
And, yes.
The seventh and eigth circles of Hell. To be fair, that was just the liquor and snack food sections. The rest of the store wasn't as bad, more like the fifth circle.
And, yes.
jlblues wrote:Yes, just north of downtown. The lower planes of Hell. And, yes.
On Cass between 10th and 13th.
I want to say it closed in the late 90's. I seem to remember stopping in there once or twice before Rams game for tailgating stuff.
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DeBaliviere wrote:Wasn't there a small store on Olive, by Macy's?
Yes this one.... I know about the one on cass. I'm interested to hear more about this small store they had in the CBD.
Ok, so now I am dating myself, but in the late 70's there was a Schnucks in the ground floor of the parking garage across from Macy's. The check lanes faced Olive and the store had a side entrance on 7th. There was a little carry out counter on the 7th Street side where one could pick up lunch (soup, sandwich, etc) before or after shopping. It just looked like a mini supermarket inside, largely frequented by the folks who lived downtown or workers who needed to grab something on their way home. I don't remember issues with homeless or run away shopping carts that you are all so afraid of. Coincidentally, the manager of the new Schnucks also worked there. When he managed the store on the Hill, he proactively met with the small grocers and market owners in an effort to collaboratively offer a good product to the members of the community. It is my impression that that is his goal for downtown, too. He is very excited about this next challenge, and did not have to take this job at this phase in his career.
I realize that everyone has their favorite and not so favorite grocery chains, but this is the one who has chosen to make the investment after very careful evaluation. The others have passed on it, so instead of griping about them, help them to make this venture a success. Why don't we try evaluating such things with a positive eye instead of so smartly discussing, 6-months before they open, all the mistakes you all anticipate they will make.
I realize that everyone has their favorite and not so favorite grocery chains, but this is the one who has chosen to make the investment after very careful evaluation. The others have passed on it, so instead of griping about them, help them to make this venture a success. Why don't we try evaluating such things with a positive eye instead of so smartly discussing, 6-months before they open, all the mistakes you all anticipate they will make.
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I'm ready to give the DT Schnucks a chance. I like the Arsenal store and I do think the S. Grand one is improving (though it still has a ways to go)
and saltearth is right. When have the Dierbergs shown any kind of interest within the city limits?
and saltearth is right. When have the Dierbergs shown any kind of interest within the city limits?