urbanSTL

saltearth wrote:Ok, so now I am dating myself, but in the late 70's there was a Schnucks in the ground floor of the parking garage across from Macy's. The check lanes faced Olive and the store had a side entrance on 7th. There was a little carry out counter on the 7th Street side where one could pick up lunch (soup, sandwich, etc) before or after shopping. It just looked like a mini supermarket inside, largely frequented by the folks who lived downtown or workers who needed to grab something on their way home. I don't remember issues with homeless or run away shopping carts that you are all so afraid of. Coincidentally, the manager of the new Schnucks also worked there. When he managed the store on the Hill, he proactively met with the small grocers and market owners in an effort to collaboratively offer a good product to the members of the community. It is my impression that that is his goal for downtown, too. He is very excited about this next challenge, and did not have to take this job at this phase in his career.



I realize that everyone has their favorite and not so favorite grocery chains, but this is the one who has chosen to make the investment after very careful evaluation. The others have passed on it, so instead of griping about them, help them to make this venture a success. Why don't we try evaluating such things with a positive eye instead of so smartly discussing, 6-months before they open, all the mistakes you all anticipate they will make.

Wonderful



Give the old man a hammer and tell him to get knocking on this thing..



If it must be a SCHNUCKS get the damn thing started already..

saltearth wrote:The others have passed on it, so instead of griping about them, help them to make this venture a success. Why don't we try evaluating such things with a positive eye instead of so smartly discussing, 6-months before they open, all the mistakes you all anticipate they will make.

I don't have to "anticipate" any mistakes. I just have to look at the South Grand store and see the mistakes that the same company has made and continues to make. Why do you think Schnuck's shouldn't be held accountable for a situation that they helped create, a situation that has detracted from the great neighborhoods to the north along Grand?



Re: Others:



If this were Dierberg's opening a store downtown, I'd be more willing to cut them some slack, even though they have zero experience in the city (although I would argue that they know as much about urban groceries as Schnuck's - nothing), because at least all of their stores are clean, well-maintained, well-managed, appropriate for the neighborhood, and they sell quality food products.



Straub's was very close. If they were offered the incentive package that Schnuck's was, they would have opened a downtown store, and although it may not have been 28,000 sf, I'm quite sure it would have been better that whatever Schnuck's does.



How do we know Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, or CityMarket wouldn't have opened a store downtown, if offered the same incentive package? Did the city actually try, or did they just take the easy and most lucrative route and tap into the old boys network? I believe the very reason there is a Schnuck's opening soon downtown is to preempt the national "urban market" chains.

Regarding Schnucks and how they will handle downtown, is obvioulsy to be seen. But one thing we need to keep in mind, is downtown had to have the prescense of a fully functional grocery store to proceed in incouraging future development and incourage suburbanites to live downtown. And whether it be Schnucks or some other grocer they would have to have the resources to grow into the city scene. Only two people were willing to step up to the plate and that was City Grocer and Schnucks. In this case Schnucks won the deal. City Grocer, as I understand, was only opened to try to fill the grocery void downtown and really do not think Craig Heller really wanted to be in the grocer business but did so because someone had to and no was. And had Schnucks not jumped on the deal, Craig would have opened up a larger grocer in the Syndicate Building as he saw the absolute necessity to have a large grocery store downtown. Another thing, we do not want Schnucks to be all things to all people. Fullfilling the everyday grocery needs of downtowners with national brand names is all they have to do. This will allow smaller boutique type of stores to excel by offering unique items. As for security and curbing the interest of "those" people we prefer not to shop next to, there are tricks to the trade in what you offer and how much you charge. For example, selling pints is OK, you just need to make sure the price is higher. That way "those people" will shop at J Pauls on 4th street, as they do not care how they make a buck as long as it is a buck. The bottom line is we need a grocer in the innner part of downtown to make it happen. And for now Schnucks is it and we we need to run with this. As a downtown resident and busines owner, I feel very positive about the fact that we will finally have a real grocery store. Maybe someday we will even get an open air market like the Union Market back.

Am I missing something?? I go to the Schnucks at Hampton and Chippewa and always just thought of it as a grocery store...what the hell am I missing? Do they kill puppies in there or what?

FWIW, although I detest the design and layout of Loughborough Commons, the Schnucks there is quite nice. We do most of our grocery shopping there.



I understand some of the arguments jlblues is making but I think the downtown store will be just fine.



With all of the delayed and canceled projects in downtown recently, it's nice to know this is still going forward.

migueltejada wrote:^ why would they? They're more expensive than Schnucks, and with a huge pre-prepared foods section, cater to a different market.

You haven't lived here for a while, have you?

lamiaposta wrote:Maybe someday we will even get an open air market like the Union Market back.

Every time I went with my grandmother to go shopping at Famous and Stix, no stop was complete without a visit to Union Market. Yep, I feel old.



I also remember the half-hearted attempt to turn that building into a mini-Union Station- that didn't last very long. I'd love to see something like Union Market in downtown again. In the meantime, despite the concerns some have, I think Schnucks will be a great addition to downtown that will hopefully encourage other merchants to give it a shot (especially once the economy improves).

I'd be interested to know if Schnucks has any plans on any other urban grocery stores in the city, say a truly urban replacement store on grand (or probably more importantly, LINDELL!)...e.g. like the two story Kroger operated Fred Meyer store on Hawthorne in Portland (the surrounding neighborhood is less dense than tower grove south/east).







far from perfect, but like the hampton target, it splits parking between in this case a roof garage and a rear parking lot. unlike the hampton target, the structure is placed up to the sidewalk.



if Kroger can figure it out...

The Central Scrutinizer wrote:I assume you are keeping in mind that the Arsenal store is also an "urban grocery" and they seem to manage that one quite well.

So a well-managed store offsets a poorly-managed one?

^So which will the downtown store be? Do you believe that the long-term condition of any particular Schnuck's store is a result of the individual manager of that store, or do you think maybe it more accurately reflects the overall strategy and policies of the corporation? Which stores best exemplify the ability of Schnuck's to manage a grocery in an urban neighborhood, and adapt to the many challenges therof? Last, even if 2/3 of their stores in the city limits were well-managed (which I think is quite a stretch), that still leaves 1/3 that are not. Would you invest in any "urban grocer" with a similar track record?



In any case, I could write a thesis on the differences between the The Hill/Southwest Garden area and the areas served by the Lindell and South Grand Schnuck's stores, and the much different challenges these stores face. In brief though, The Hill is one of the lowest-density residential areas in the south half of the city, it has few multi-family residential structures - hence relatively few subsidized housing units, is relatively homogeneous from both a racial and economic standpoint, and is, and has historically been, inhabited by a very, um, let's say proactive, native population . In short, not that The Hill/Southwest Garden area isn't urban, but it has much more in common with, say, Shrewsbury or Maplewood, than it does with TGE/TGS, Benton Park West, Gravois Park, or CWE/Midtown. (Also, and this is purely conjecture, but I suspect that most of the free crazies tend to shy away from that particular stretch of Arsenal where Schnuck's is located. )



Of course neighborhood issues are the root of many of the problems at the South Grand and Lindell stores. These stores serve high-density neighborhoods with a very diverse set of demographics. But how well is Schnuck's managing those challenges? Have they adjusted their policies and their product mix to encourage the more responsible residents in the neighborhood to do their grocery shopping there, and to discourage others from doing their "grocery" shopping there and otherwise accumulating in the vicinity of the store? Or, do they simply throw up their hands and continue to pursue policies to maximize short-term revenue at the expense of the long-term health of the store and surrounding neighborhoods?



Now ask yourself this question: Which of the demographic sets served by the existing stores discussed above most accurately reflects the demographics of the area which would be served by a downtown grocery store?

jlblues wrote:^But that has nothing to do with my point - which you seem unable to grasp - that I do not believe the "Schnuck's boys" have any clue as to how to run a viable urban grocery store, and I question their level of commitment. So while any grocery store opening downtown would be a positive addition, it is not difficult to imagine how it could quickly turn into a negative.

Downtown STL Fan wrote:I might be more inclined to take you seriously if I had some understanding of your background. Do you have extensive experience in the grocery business? That you have an opinion and convey it with passion is undisputed, but I'm wondering what backs it up.

You certainly are an ardent defender of Schnuck's. Do you have extensive experience in the grocery business? I might be more inclined to take you seriously if I understood what stokes your fervor.

Excuse me for thinking the mission of this forum is as follows:



"Members should expect mostly positive news and information to be disseminated here. This board is primarily meant to accentuate the positive regarding St. Louis as well as a place to exchange information. This is not a complaint board and not the place to post your rants..."



Although I certaintly expect some negative opinion here, yours is so consistently negative on this topic and most others that it appears to fall into the "complaint board" category. I'd rather be a strong supporter of a new downtown business than diss them before then even open their doors. There are lots of eyes reading these posts and I just don't see that the constant negative harping accomplishes anything, so this is my last post to you on this topic.

Downtown STL Fan wrote:There are lots of eyes reading these posts...

Well I have no idea what "eyes" you think are reading this forum, that you apparently think are so clueless that they are under the false impression that everything will automatically just be perfect and wonderful at a new downtown Schnuck's grocery. Seriously, what are you smoking?

The Eyes wrote:Gosh Bob! I just read on the internets that someone thinks the new downtown Schnuck's may have some problems. Well, durnit, maybe we shouldn't build that new 50-story mixed-use tower downtown after all!

You want to be a cheerleader. I get that. Rah rah. But I'm more concerned about this project being done right. This is so very typical St. Louis. Deny there is a problem, and when someone dares point out the obvious, we close our eyes, cover our ears, yell NAH NAH NAH NAH, and wish them away. And then we end up with St. Louis Centre, or the Gateway Mall, or Laclede's Landing, or Union Station, and so on, and everyone stares around blankly and says, "Whappen?"



If those "eyes" have any ability to do something about it, maybe they should realize the many, many potential pitfalls with this store and take steps to prevent them before they are problems? It is called being proactive instead of reactive; something that doesn't happen much in this town.



And while we are at it, maybe some of those "eyes" can do something to get Schnuck's to clean up the South Grand store and some of their other city stores, instead of just watching them fester.

Downtown STL Fan wrote:...and I just don't see that the constant negative harping accomplishes anything,

No, unfortunately it probably doesn't accomplish anything. Everyone will ignore the warnings. Schnuck's will open, all of my concerns will prove true, the store will close in a couple of years, and then every other grocer will say, "Well Schnuck's couldn't make it work downtown, so why should we even consider it", and it will be another decade or more before anyone tries to open a grocery downtown.



Do you really not see the importance of making absolutely sure that Schnuck's considers more than just their bottom line with this store, or do you just want to give 'em a blank check because your brother-in-law Billy Bob said, "Them Schnuck's boys really knows what they doin'".



Not one person has even attempted to answer this question: Why, when Schnuck's can't manage the problems at it's South Grand store, does anyone believe it will be able to manage the same problems at it's downtown store?

Downtown STL Fan wrote:so this is my last post to you on this topic.

Polkadots and moonbeams baby!

so this is my last post to you on this topic.

Save our space and time and take your rants to PM together.



Thanks!



This thread will be cleaned up on Sunday 08/05/08

matguy70 wrote:

so this is my last post to you on this topic.

Save our space and time and take your rants to PM together.



Thanks!



This thread will be cleaned up on Sunday 08/05/08

Perhaps, comrade Guy, you can just take a black marker to the portions of posts which you find so offensive?

matguy70 wrote:

Quote:

so this is my last post to you on this topic.





Save our space and time and take your rants to PM together.



Thanks!



This thread will be cleaned up on Sunday 08/05/08



Jlblues wrote:

Quote:

Perhaps, comrade Guy, you can just take a black marker to the portions of posts which you find so offensive?

Look, I don't find any of the converstation offensive.



But when there are is an entire page of conversation between two posters bantering back and forth, it does get old and long and spacial. [Not to mention a complaint posted.]



That is what IM/PM is for. So use it.



If you don't like the rules here - get/make your own sandbox to play in.

I attended a focus group with 11 other downtown dwellers and workers on the new Schnucks concept a few weeks ago. We reviewed the drawings of the new store and listened to the concept. The new Schnucks store is not a grocery store, but rather a larger version of City Grocers. The footprint and services were almost identical, except larger with a small pharmacy.



Schnucks seems to be focusing on prepared food and catering and a large portion of the timeframe was spent on questioning the downtown workers on their breakfast, lunch and catering needs. Groceries seemed to be a necessary evil to maintain the Schuncks name. No one in the room was thrilled and at the end of the session the concept graded very poorly by all members of the group.



Bottom line - Schunks is probably stalling or revisiting its concept. In my opinion, they may tank the project. The comments from the group were brutally honest and may be too much for Schnucks to continue its plans for downtown. Even the sub sandwich that they unveiled was ordinary at best.



At the focus group meeting, it was evident that Schnucks's downtown concept was directed to downtown workers, not residents. Very late in the session, the subject of hours was addressed and we were all shocked that they were possibly not considering longer hours on weekends and evenings.



Everyone in the group associated the Schnucks name with groceries. The presented concept strayed from the Schnucks brand name and would not influence their buying decisions.



Several members begged for a tradional grocery store for downtown. We left thinking that this was not planned and would never happen.

gsp9993 wrote:I attended a focus group with 11 other downtown dwellers and workers on the new Schnucks concept a few weeks ago. We reviewed the drawings of the new store and listened to the concept. The new Schnucks store is not a grocery store, but rather a larger version of City Grocers. The footprint and services were almost identical, except larger with a small pharmacy.



Schnucks seems to be focusing on prepared food and catering and a large portion of the timeframe was spent on questioning the downtown workers on their breakfast, lunch and catering needs. Groceries seemed to be a necessary evil to maintain the Schuncks name. No one in the room was thrilled and at the end of the session the concept graded very poorly by all members of the group.



Bottom line - Schunks is probably stalling or revisiting its concept. In my opinion, they may tank the project. The comments from the group were brutally honest and may be too much for Schnucks to continue its plans for downtown. Even the sub sandwich that they unveiled was ordinary at best.

(edit)



It wouldnt bother me to see Schnucks/Desco plans fall apart even before they get started



Take back the tax credits if they dont follow through on a time deadline they gave to the city.



Their stallings and rethinking only delays the fact that downtown needs a grocer



City Grocer had a plan



Schnucks ruined it and misrepresented their intetentions and scared other developers interested in downtown instead of just making a profit,



for them it is about $$$, they wouldnt even consider it without incentives..



City Grocer had the downtown residents in mind, not profits



Schnucks SUCKS bigtime

^^ Thanks so much for the insite, this is very informative.

^ I happen to disagree... And why on earth do you have to type so big AND double space?





I think Schnucks is going about this in the right way... I applaud them in taking the extra steps to do these focus groups...better to have them scrap the idea now, than open a poor concept doomed to fail from the beginning.