urbanSTL

TG wrote:I'll believe it when I actually see it. They have been talking about this for too long for me to all of a sudden fall for another 'it's coming soon' story.



Another reason I am not all that excited about it is that several DT residents I have talked to mentioned driving there and using the free parking they will offer??? That pretty much defeats the purpose of having a grocer downtown to help increase foot traffic.

Sure, there will be some who drive there, but the more we can spur growth in and around Old Post Office square - both residentially and commercially - the more foot traffic the store will get.



At this point, we just need people to support the store, whether they walk there or drive there. If the store were to eventually go out of business, it would be very bad for downtown from a perception standpoint.

I have edited my comment above directed to TG. I am sorry if I offended TG by saying he "doesn't get it". TG is entitled to his own views towards this thread/subject.



I have also deleted user TG 's post here directed towards me.



With that being said, however, may I remind everyone not to use inflamatory language or mean spirited comments toward each other or, more importantly, towards a Moderator of these forums.



Please review the forum rules and regulations if any questions.

http://www.urbanstl.com/viewtopic.php?t=2036



*posting profanity and obscenities

Please do not post profanity, obscenities, or spiteful remarks - Messages which contain excessive and pointless swearing, or insults aimed at other people, or politically offensive language will be removed.

Friend of mine is supplying some materials for the buildout and he has been instructed to have said materials delivered in about 5 weeks. For his materials to be installed, there would need to be some construction already completed.

matguy70 wrote:With that being said, however, may I remind everyone not to use inflamatory language or mean spirited comments toward each other or, more importantly, towards a Moderator of these forums.

Heh, why is it more important to not to be mean to a moderator as opposed to a regular Joe or Josette? Aren't we all the same at the end of the day?



By the way, there's a new market going into the old Baseline space just east of Copia on Washington Ave. Anyone know more about this?

innov8ion wrote:By the way, there's a new market going into the old Baseline space just east of Copia on Washington Ave. Anyone know more about this?

I noticed they have a little sign up now - Washington Avenue Market. Here's a brief discussion on it from a few weeks back:



http://www.urbanstl.com/viewtopic.php?t ... t=baseline

innov8ion wrote:

matguy70 wrote:With that being said, however, may I remind everyone not to use inflamatory language or mean spirited comments toward each other or, more importantly, towards a Moderator of these forums.

Heh, why is it more important to not to be mean to a moderator as opposed to a regular Joe or Josette? Aren't we all the same at the end of the day?



By the way, there's a new market going into the old Baseline space just east of Copia on Washington Ave. Anyone know more about this?

Don't bite the hand that feeds you

^ nom nom nom. i was mainly teasin... sometimes tone doesn't translate easily over phosphorescent screens. just meant to say that everyone's feelings are of equal value.

Doug,

When I saw you posted in this thread, I knew exactly what you were gonna say. Then I read your post and I was right on. You are a broken record man.





"But we know it was done exclusively for Schnucks, not for the Old Post Office District."



Do you have anything to substantiate this? Or is this just what you WANT to believe.



"Why was Kevin McGowan's plan to put parking in the Century shot down by Steve Stogel? "

I was told the stress/load tests indicated the structure wouldn't support parking.





"The traditional model present in Loughborough Commons, placing big boxes near highways in order to capture commuters, WILL NOT WORK FOR DOWNTOWN. We need residents and they require a walkable retail as well as quality residential. A walkable downtown will not exist when we stress the automobile as the primary mode of transport."



Duh! at least we agree on something!



"We clearly destroyed a building of high merit with absolutely no positive results"

Would I have like the Century to escaped the wrecking ball, absolutely, but what's there aint all that bad. Maybe your should hold off on your judgement until the retail spaces are filled. (Assuming that ever happens)

Doug wrote:Perhaps I'm wrong, but I heard Stogel threatened to put McGowan out of business if he pursued the plan.



Broken record?



You mean my criticism or our repetition of bad policy?



What must come first?



If you can't connect then dots then that's your problem not mine.



The Garage is "not that bad" if you're comparing it to our uglier, far older garages, or the aesthetic innovation of an Earth City or North Park office building. But the standard was the marble clad Century Building. All arguments for demolition, that we needed another garage to spur OPO development, were and are clearly inane. The garage has done nothing to promote development. The streets are just as dead.



We need people to abandon their cars not historic buildings. Parking is not economic development.



There are many ways to get Downtown grocery services without the demolition of historic buildings. In fact we actually already had one via Craig Heller's City Grocers and perhaps with expansion, and economies of scale, unit prices could have dropped. Schnuck's could have built within an existing building or upon a vacant lot. I suppose when City Hall says go ahead and all of the other heads within the room approve, it's simply easier to go in other directions.



The moment we forget the Century and comply with these bad ideas coincides with the demolition of yet another building.



I'm sorry if you disagree but I'm not here to please you, but rather point out that we keep making the same mistakes continuously while the promised positive outcome never occurs.

Yes, a brokern record.

Doug, I am pretty sure that most everyone agrees with your sentiment about the Century Building. But this happened in 2004. What are you trying to convince people of at this point? That it was a bad idea? I don't think anyone on this board actually prefers the parking garage to the landmark that was there before it. The reason you keep getting bad reactions is that no one knows why you keep bringing it up at irrelevant times. I know that talking about this blemish in our past can be relevant in talking about the future. It might be a relevant memory to bring up the next time we talk about destroying another building. In fact, I think that we should actively remember how we feel about the Century (or the Ambassador or a variety of other buildings) the next time we as a city consider destroying a building. But this thread is about grocery stores? We can't really change what we've done, but if you want to remind us of what we've done, at least do it at a time when it makes sense--when it can be used in considering a new decision--not simply whenever you read something that reminds you of it.

^thank you

Yea Doug its over now. The Century Building is gone. Lets look towards the future and try to stop any further demolitions. Look at the positives instead of always focusing on negatives and you will realize that over the past few years St. Louis has been headed in the right direction (ONSL, Washington Ave, OPO, Great Rivers Greenways, Bike St. Louis etc).

I agree with you in theory however I would like to see DT succeed and as it stands now, we need this development to be a success. A boycott by a few 'cavemen' isn't gonna change anything.

Matt Drops The H wrote:

goat314 wrote:Yea Doug its over now. The Century Building is gone. Lets look towards the future and try to stop any further demolitions. Look at the positives instead of always focusing on negatives and you will realize that over the past few years St. Louis has been headed in the right direction (ONSL, Washington Ave, OPO, Great Rivers Greenways, Bike St. Louis etc).

It's not an issue to just "get over". It exemplifies everything wrong with St. Louis planning/politics: top down government with no urbanistic vision calling all the shots, rewarding those with connections, squandering historic resources, promoting autocentricism, bolstering the "only save the biggest and bestest landmarks" mindset towards preservation and urbanism, and adding another (in my opinion) unsightly and unneeded parking garage downtown.



If there were calls to boycott the garage and the subsequent Schnucks, I would believe that some sort of lesson had been learned. Yet people will comfortably park in this garage and shop at this Schnuck's. There is no lesson learned. Any money you contribute to this site is an endorsement of the policies that created it, in my opinion. And so many people both openly and tacitly endorse these methods.



St. Louisans always throw their hands up and say, "Oh well!" IF the garage were a colossal failure, on the other hand, proponents of sound urban planning might be able to turn the tide.



EDIT: My absolutely pitiful mood right now shines through with this post.

I think this misses the point of the criticism I am making which is: must we keep bringing this issue up HERE, AGAIN on this forum?? What you say is true. The demolition of the Century is extemely symbolic of the corruption, lack of vision, and short-term planning our city government has. I think, at this point, that this is a purely political issue that has lost its meaning in a forum of like-minded thinkers, who mostly agree with you. Start a website. Write a column. Reach out to people who don't consider what makes our city government that much more inept than other cities' governments and what, specifically, we need to reform in our policy. At the very least, start your own d*mn thread about it. But I am just sick of seeing the same topics rehashed over and over in threads where they don't belong, where nothing new is introduced, no soltuions are proposed, and all of it is couched in this cocky attitude that somehow implies that if we don't post about it ad nauseum, then we will all forget about it and therefore won't learn anything from it. Doug, if you are not taking any action besides complaining, what are you criticizing the members of this board for? What do you expect to get out of yet another post about it?

stlmike wrote:

Matt Drops The H wrote:

goat314 wrote:Yea Doug its over now. The Century Building is gone. Lets look towards the future and try to stop any further demolitions. Look at the positives instead of always focusing on negatives and you will realize that over the past few years St. Louis has been headed in the right direction (ONSL, Washington Ave, OPO, Great Rivers Greenways, Bike St. Louis etc).

It's not an issue to just "get over". It exemplifies everything wrong with St. Louis planning/politics: top down government with no urbanistic vision calling all the shots, rewarding those with connections, squandering historic resources, promoting autocentricism, bolstering the "only save the biggest and bestest landmarks" mindset towards preservation and urbanism, and adding another (in my opinion) unsightly and unneeded parking garage downtown.



If there were calls to boycott the garage and the subsequent Schnucks, I would believe that some sort of lesson had been learned. Yet people will comfortably park in this garage and shop at this Schnuck's. There is no lesson learned. Any money you contribute to this site is an endorsement of the policies that created it, in my opinion. And so many people both openly and tacitly endorse these methods.



St. Louisans always throw their hands up and say, "Oh well!" IF the garage were a colossal failure, on the other hand, proponents of sound urban planning might be able to turn the tide.



EDIT: My absolutely pitiful mood right now shines through with this post.

I think this misses the point of the criticism I am making which is: must we keep bringing this issue up HERE, AGAIN on this forum?? What you say is true. The demolition of the Century is extemely symbolic of the corruption, lack of vision, and short-term planning our city government has. I think, at this point, that this is a purely political issue that has lost its meaning in a forum of like-minded thinkers, who mostly agree with you. Start a website. Write a column. Reach out to people who don't consider what makes our city government that much more inept than other cities' governments and what, specifically, we need to reform in our policy. At the very least, start your own d*mn thread about it. But I am just sick of seeing the same topics rehashed over and over in threads where they don't belong, where nothing new is introduced, no soltuions are proposed, and all of it is couched in this cocky attitude that somehow implies that if we don't post about it ad nauseum, then we will all forget about it and therefore won't learn anything from it. Doug, if you are not taking any action besides complaining, what are you criticizing the members of this board for? What do you expect to get out of yet another post about it?

thanks mike... i couldn't have said it better.





[rant]I'm hearing a lot of b*tching on here because some people may want to drive to a grocery store. OTH! Overly critical and naive much? Ya I said it! Sometimes when you go to the store you wanna purchase more than you can carry. Sometimes when you go to the store it's 5 degrees out, or 98 and humid, and sometimes it's raining. What if a nearby resident wants to get a case a beer, a couple 12 packs of Dr. Pepper and a gallon a milk and OJ? What if one of the residents needs to stock up for get together with friends? Not every trip to store is a quick in and out people. Let's also discuss that this store will appeal to not just people living/working in the CBD. How about those near dt workers south of 40 (ABI, Ameren) on the landing (meto, Lumiere) west of Tucker (you try crossing Tucker during the afternoon rush), and about 90k other office workers who don't want to (after a longs days work (GASP)) walk 6 blocks to the Schnucks and another 6 blocks back to their vehicle or residence with 2 bags of groceries in tow? Are we also forgetting that this store may apeal to the residents of Soulard, LS, DT west, and the area north of the dome? Are you expecting them to walk too? How about those who are disabled or live in one of the many senior/assisted living residences? Would you want your mother or gma lugging her goods 6 blocks even in perfect weather? DT does need more street life, a lot more street life, but not every customer, every time, will want to or be able to walk. How about the single mother who needs to bring two kids to the store with her? You try to carry a little wiggle worm in one arm and your groceries in another.



I imagine most of you posting here complaining about parking at a grocery store are just kids who read stuff and books and think it sounds good so you regurgitate it here. I agree with a decent portion of stuff slathered all over these pages, but some of you kids just don't know a damn thing about the real world![/rant]







Doug,

You asked what I do to help the built environment. Well, I dunno man. I'm not an activist. I don't stand on the side of the road with a sign on my hand. You'll never see me picketing or joining a rally. That's just not me. I don't write my own blog or repeat the same posts about the Century building ad nauseum to a group of like minded folk. You know, I guess I don't do a whole lot to support the built environment. But what I do have going for me is a passion for this great city, I support local businesses with the people I love in the city I love, sport a pro city message wherever/whenever I can, and share my positive experiences with my exurban coworkers and other randoms. But I guess that doesn't qualify me to post in a thread about an urban grocery.