^ If they can differentiate, all the best to them. Clearly there would have to be some evolution of City Grocer's / Straub's for them to not be in direct competition with and to complement Schnuck's on the same block. Should be interesting to see how things play out.
I'd suggest being bold. Competition improves the performance of players/participants in a market.
Anyone visited a Dean and Deluca market?
I'd bet that no matter how hard Schnucks may try, they will not be able to offer single site in-store kitchens and highly skilled food prep (meat cutters, bakers, etc...). They will probably target a wider segment--which is good for the DT area as a whole.
GC could continue to mine more deeply the middle and upper income customers and those at all levels that desire very high quality food and food preparation. Even just an extensive wine and cheese shoppe could set them completely apart.
Anyone visited a Dean and Deluca market?
I'd bet that no matter how hard Schnucks may try, they will not be able to offer single site in-store kitchens and highly skilled food prep (meat cutters, bakers, etc...). They will probably target a wider segment--which is good for the DT area as a whole.
GC could continue to mine more deeply the middle and upper income customers and those at all levels that desire very high quality food and food preparation. Even just an extensive wine and cheese shoppe could set them completely apart.
True true true. The new question for downtown, with Schnucks moving in, is no longer "where do you buy your groceries?" It is now, "where do you buy fine wine, beer, liquor, cheese, meat, and prepared foods?" Also, IMO, Schnucks' butcher, while relatively extensive, cannot compete with a straubs, whole foods, G&W, for quality and variety. Downtown niche market anyone?
- 5
I don't really see City Grocers as a grocery store, but as a glorified lunch place. I think most of their revenue comes from prepared food. One of the cashiers told me once that SBC employees are their main source of business.
If they stick with their strength, which is high-quality prepared food, and keep some inventory of select groceries, I think they can compete fine with Schnucks. However, if they try to compete with Schnucks at the grocery game, I think they will get beat.
City Grocers should abandon plans to expand into the Syndicate, stay where they are now, and market their would-be space in the Syndicate to another retailer. This would lower their risk in competing against Schnucks and allow them to continue in their strength as a niche destination for prepared foods.
Finally, I would like to echo previous comments that Schnucks will do only OK for the first couple of years. I do not believe that many downtown office workers will do grocery shopping there, and the downtown population is not enough to support an entire store by itself.
However, if they are smart they will follow City Grocers' idea and install a big pharmacy / convenience store component. Walgreens is too dumb to recognize the underserved market in downtown and tap into it by building a pedestrian friendly store. Instead, they insist on building a store with a drivethru on the fringe of downtown, too far for anyone to walk to. Therefore, more power to anyone else who steps up in their stead and provides a convenience store in the core of downtown, within a short walk of all the hotels.
I would like to finally say that Schnucks deserves props for doing this. It's great news for downtown. I just hope that City Grocers finds a way to differentiate itself and stay in business.
If they stick with their strength, which is high-quality prepared food, and keep some inventory of select groceries, I think they can compete fine with Schnucks. However, if they try to compete with Schnucks at the grocery game, I think they will get beat.
City Grocers should abandon plans to expand into the Syndicate, stay where they are now, and market their would-be space in the Syndicate to another retailer. This would lower their risk in competing against Schnucks and allow them to continue in their strength as a niche destination for prepared foods.
Finally, I would like to echo previous comments that Schnucks will do only OK for the first couple of years. I do not believe that many downtown office workers will do grocery shopping there, and the downtown population is not enough to support an entire store by itself.
However, if they are smart they will follow City Grocers' idea and install a big pharmacy / convenience store component. Walgreens is too dumb to recognize the underserved market in downtown and tap into it by building a pedestrian friendly store. Instead, they insist on building a store with a drivethru on the fringe of downtown, too far for anyone to walk to. Therefore, more power to anyone else who steps up in their stead and provides a convenience store in the core of downtown, within a short walk of all the hotels.
I would like to finally say that Schnucks deserves props for doing this. It's great news for downtown. I just hope that City Grocers finds a way to differentiate itself and stay in business.
Moms deli and LeGrands TomBoy both survive and they're not more than 6 blocks from each other. Not to mention there is a schnucks and a Shop'n'save very close by. I agree City Grocers can survive if they continue and even magnify their focus towards prepared foods.
- 516
citypulsestl wrote:I don't really see City Grocers as a grocery store, but as a glorified lunch place. I think most of their revenue comes from prepared food.
I think you're right. I've been there at various times throughout the day on both weekdays and weekends and I can't say I've really ever seen anyone do grocery shopping there. Most people are either buying prepared foods, beer/wine & snacks, or the one or two missing ingredients they need for that night's dinner.
Hopefully they can still survive on prepared food + alcohol if people head to Schnucks to buy some fresh mushrooms for tonights spaghetti sauce.
Yes...the type of grocer that offers six types of fresh pate, four types of chicken salad, 24 types of canned olives, etc... CG has the concept down, they just need the expansion and a serious upgrade (it's tacky).
I'd think the market for prepared dinners would be huge. To Your Doorstep in Soulard seems to be doing well.
I'd think the market for prepared dinners would be huge. To Your Doorstep in Soulard seems to be doing well.
Hmm,
I think the comment about a the meat selection at schnucks is an interesting one. They have many things, but I too have often found the quality to be low. Makes you wonder whether a top notch meat market could do well downtown. If done well (ie. an Annie Gunns/ Smoke House combo) with a store that sells meats and some grocery supplies next to a resturant using said meats could be a winner in the right area downtown. It could and would thrive on office workers and dinners, and probably could get a healthy number of tourists looking to by meat or bbq stuff plus any downtown residents looking to get better meats and the like than Schnucks sells.
I think the comment about a the meat selection at schnucks is an interesting one. They have many things, but I too have often found the quality to be low. Makes you wonder whether a top notch meat market could do well downtown. If done well (ie. an Annie Gunns/ Smoke House combo) with a store that sells meats and some grocery supplies next to a resturant using said meats could be a winner in the right area downtown. It could and would thrive on office workers and dinners, and probably could get a healthy number of tourists looking to by meat or bbq stuff plus any downtown residents looking to get better meats and the like than Schnucks sells.
A quality butcher component is, for me, something that I go out of my way for. It also adds flexibility in the sandwich/prepared food department for the store. While I will do my basic grocery shopping at a downtown Schnucks on the way home from work, I would walk back by CG and pick up meat or other higher-end items like olives or cheese or liquor (although I think their liquor prices are a little too blatantly inflated at the moment). That, to me is an essential component of urban living. Variety and proximity in the shopping landscape. "I like to get this here, and that there, and they have the best whatever, and oh man, the sandwiches here are great" Etc etc.
JMedwick wrote:Hmm,
I think the comment about a the meat selection at schnucks is an interesting one. They have many things, but I too have often found the quality to be low. Makes you wonder whether a top notch meat market could do well downtown. If done well (ie. an Annie Gunns/ Smoke House combo) with a store that sells meats and some grocery supplies next to a resturant using said meats could be a winner in the right area downtown. It could and would thrive on office workers and dinners, and probably could get a healthy number of tourists looking to by meat or bbq stuff plus any downtown residents looking to get better meats and the like than Schnucks sells.
Maybe CG should partner with Kenrick's? The catering and butcher business could be a great angle. I drive the 20 minutes to Kenricks to get their good stuff. Anyone with easy access to 55 should check them out.
I won't mention the name, but I will absolutely never purchase again meat from one of the top chains in the region. One too many times, I've noticed it has been tampered with and I've had to throw it out. Only small meat counters and meat from out of the case for me.
bprop wrote:innov8ion wrote:
I have it on inside news that City Grocer's will not stay in that area and compete with Schnuck's.
No, City Grocers won't be there per se, but Schnucks will have competition.
Well I was a little outdated. As of a couple weeks ago, CG was going to be a Straubs, but Straubs backed out after Schnucks made their news official. However the manager from Straubs (as reported in another post) is on board now. City Grocers is staying where they are, and scaling back on groceries to do some basic 'provisions' and beef up lunch, prepared foods, and so on.
On the other hand, we have another option that opens next week:
http://www.localharvestgrocery.com/
Local Harvest Grocery
3148 Morgan Ford
St. Louis, MO
Our grand opening is scheduled for June 1, 2007.
We will stock high quality, foods from the St. Louis region including meats, produce, cheese, eggs, grains and more. We will also have sustainably produced goods from outside the St. Louis region, including olive oils, canned goods, natural cleaners and organic produce not grown locally.
Initially we will also be serving prepared foods, including sandwiches, fruit/vegetable juices and smoothies. We will sell locally produced baked goods, as well, and brew locally roasted coffee.
Please keep checking back for more details!
http://www.localharvestgrocery.com/
Local Harvest Grocery
3148 Morgan Ford
St. Louis, MO
Our grand opening is scheduled for June 1, 2007.
We will stock high quality, foods from the St. Louis region including meats, produce, cheese, eggs, grains and more. We will also have sustainably produced goods from outside the St. Louis region, including olive oils, canned goods, natural cleaners and organic produce not grown locally.
Initially we will also be serving prepared foods, including sandwiches, fruit/vegetable juices and smoothies. We will sell locally produced baked goods, as well, and brew locally roasted coffee.
Please keep checking back for more details!
Grover wrote:Cool - BTW, I think it's "Morganford" and not "Morgan Ford"
We've had this discussion before. I can't find the link to the particular topic though. I don't think the city actually knows. I've seen it spelled both ways: Morgan Ford and Morganford.
On Schnucks' website there is no press release about the downtown store.
http://www.schnucks.com/pressreleases/
There's an easy way to contact Schnucks.
http://www.schnucks.com/consumersline.html
http://www.schnucks.com/pressreleases/
There's an easy way to contact Schnucks.
http://www.schnucks.com/consumersline.html
Just got this email from Schnucks.
Interesting.
Thanks so much for your message. Although there has been a lot of speculation within the media, the leaders of Schnuck Markets, Inc., have not announced plans for a downtown Schnucks store.
Our CEO, Scott Schnuck, maintains that we are always interested in opportunities to serve more St. Louis customers but there is no agreement to announce.
Interesting.
Wait, What? How many times is this grocery store going to happen/not happen? Several times now it has gone from "rumor" to "speculation" to "done-deal" to "where's the announcement" to "somebody jumped the gun." I just don't get how this has gotten so f...ed up?
I wasn't trying to stir anything up, I initially went to their website to see if they had any information about how big the Frontenac location is, and how that might translate to a downtown store. That's what led me to send them a message since nothing was on their website.
Look this isn't about who's right and who's wrong. It just seems that the downtown Schnucks is being handled very strangely.
Look this isn't about who's right and who's wrong. It just seems that the downtown Schnucks is being handled very strangely.
BTW: I was in the Frontennac store over the weekend and tried to pace off the dimensions. I very roughly had around 240 feet by 130 feet which is 31000 sq ft. That might give us a hint of what a possible downtown store might be like.
Back to topic: I'm wondering whether Schnucks might resurrect some variation on the "Schnucks Express" footprint that failed in Affton, but I bet would be much more appropriate for a downtown enviroment. That one was 17,000 sf.
- 6,775
bonwich wrote:Back to topic: I'm wondering whether Schnucks might resurrect some variation on the "Schnucks Express" footprint that failed in Affton, but I bet would be much more appropriate for a downtown enviroment. That one was 17,000 sf.
Possibly. Although, IIRC, they were sort of "forced" into opening that, weren't they?
Here's the information from the St. Louis County property tax website for the Frontennac location.
So it's close to 30000 sq ft. It looks like that store might be an indication of what a downtown location might look like. That's if the store gets built.
Line Sect From To Year Built Length x Width = Area Perim Use Type Wall Height Ext. Wall Construction
1 01 01 01 _ x _ = 29478 741 DISCOUNT STORE/MKT 16 Brick Veneer Wood Frame/Joist/Beam
So it's close to 30000 sq ft. It looks like that store might be an indication of what a downtown location might look like. That's if the store gets built.
It's hard to tell from the clips I can find from that time. Schnucks was under some political pressure because they'd bought out National, but there was also a trend at that time for downsized retail stores from everyone from Office Max to Wal-Mart. I can't fully see Schnucks throwing together an entire small-store concept just to appease one small sector of the region.
- 6,775
bonwich wrote:It's hard to tell from the clips I can find from that time. Schnucks was under some political pressure because they'd bought out National, but there was also a trend at that time for downsized retail stores from everyone from Office Max to Wal-Mart. I can't fully see Schnucks throwing together an entire small-store concept just to appease one small sector of the region.
If I recall correctly, when Schnuck's moved a little farther out Gravois into their new store, the "new" National (led by that crook - Gibson?) wanted to lease the old store. Schnuck's said no. I think the government got involved (as part of the ruling that allowed the buyout) and basically said you have to rent it to someone, you can't just leave it empty. So they opened that Schnuck's Express, even thought there was a full sized Schnuck's a literal stones throw away. Predictably, it didn't last long.