urbanSTL

Doug wrote:This is an epic fail. We had an organic Downtown developing which offered an experience that my exurban mother commented, and really anyone with capacity understands, didn't exist in our Region. We destroyed our comparative advantage, architectural history and the opportunity for more residents and a lively Old Post Office District, for the careerist ambitions of a Mayor who desires to be another Richard J. Daley. Four consecutive mayoral terms should not come at such a high price which we cannot suffer.

^ Do you really believe everything you say? Or is much of it for the dramatic l0lz? Just wondering...

If Culinaria puts all competition out of business they have market power controlling price -- thus undermining the original arguments for inviting them Downtown

I love this attitude that business are so eager to move downtown that we have to invite them to do so. As though there's a waiting list.

bprop wrote:

If Culinaria puts all competition out of business they have market power controlling price -- thus undermining the original arguments for inviting them Downtown

I love this attitude that business are so eager to move downtown that we have to invite them to do so. As though there's a waiting list.

the only waiting list that i know of, is the one to get outta downtown.

[my comments remain the same as my long post one page before this]



"compete, market and promote - the winner is the one that does it best - period"

^I agree. Instead of some of the business owners complaining about how Schnucks stole there customers they also need to look in the mirror and ask themselves what they could do better?

matguy70 wrote:"compete, market and promote - the winner is the one that does it best - period"

That is inevitable. However, it should at least be acknowledged that larger businesses have certain advantages over smaller ones when it comes to marketing and promotion. For instance, a larger business has people working in specialized roles and can afford someone (or even an entire department) to do marketing full time. A smaller business on the other hand may only have a couple employees (or even really just one person) who not only fills the marketing and promotion role, but also has to run every other aspect of the business.



I'm not saying anything specific should necessarily be done about this, but the advantages and disadvantages of each competitor should at least be acknowledged. Even if both have really good marketing and promotion ideas, one side is inevitably going to have more resources to implement those ideas.

^+1



as e-business owners, its so easy to post "improve, go cheaper, better this, better that"



the most common i hear is go cheaper. how the hell can little guys go cheaper. WE CANT!! WE'D BE WORKING FOR FREE! Schnucks can be cheap for obvious reasons. If anything we'd jack prices! I already know of three places that upped prices ever since downtown doomsday

Downtown2007 wrote:^I agree. Instead of some of the business owners complaining about how Schnucks stole there customers they also need to look in the mirror and ask themselves what they could do better?

oh good thing you posted. i did know what in the hell to do.

kleancut,

Pray tell me, along with dissuading people in promoting downtown, how do your comments provide any constructive value? Your comments seem to be more about how "not" to do things and how everything that hapenns downtown is bad than seeing our downtown trying to do something different.



We have seen the population (EDUCATED at that) increase.

We have seen new conceptual stores open up.

We have seen a stable tax base being set up

We have seen Billions of $$$ of investment



Let's talk about the positives shall we? It might even make you feel better.

kleancut wrote:^+1



as e-business owners, its so easy to post "improve, go cheaper, better this, better that"



the most common i hear is go cheaper. how the hell can little guys go cheaper. WE CANT!! WE'D BE WORKING FOR FREE! Schnucks can be cheap for obvious reasons. If anything we'd jack prices! I already know of three places that upped prices ever since downtown doomsday

Downtown2007 wrote:^I agree. Instead of some of the business owners complaining about how Schnucks stole there customers they also need to look in the mirror and ask themselves what they could do better?

oh good thing you posted. i did know what in the hell to do.

I am not trying to rip you apart. I actually like your store and plan to frequent it in the future. I am just saying that Schnucks didnt open out of nowhere. It has been know for 3 years they were going to open up a location downtown and its the small business owners responsibility to plan for future competition in the market place.

Doug wrote:

innov8ion wrote:

Doug wrote:This is an epic fail. We had an organic Downtown developing which offered an experience that my exurban mother commented, and really anyone with capacity understands, didn't exist in our Region. We destroyed our comparative advantage, architectural history and the opportunity for more residents and a lively Old Post Office District, for the careerist ambitions of a Mayor who desires to be another Richard J. Daley. Four consecutive mayoral terms should not come at such a high price which we cannot suffer.

^ Do you really believe everything you say? Or is much of it for the dramatic l0lz? Just wondering...

You mean, let me understand this cause, ya know maybe it's me, I'm a little f***ed up maybe, but I'm funny how, I mean funny like I'm a clown, I amuse you? I make you laugh, I'm here to *****' amuse you? What do you mean funny, funny how? How am I funny?

You're smart and sensitive. But sometimes you can be a little overdramatic.

kleancut wrote:the only waiting list that i know of, is the one to get outta downtown.

With all due respect, please get a grip.

^ You think Culinaria has stymied the development of a residential neighborhood? First, downtown is mixed use. Second, having a respected market downtown is a strategic move. Third, think longer term. The market will cause make some adjustments in the near term, but we will be better off in the long run. Fourth, you may want towers in its place but Post Office Plaza is fine.



Much of your anger seems misguided.

Doug, people often criticize you solely because of your normal comments that follow your usual personal beliefs. But seriously? I don't even know where to begin on your last comment. Allow me to be the second one in a single page to ask you, seriously, do you really believe the stuff that comes out of your mouth (fingers, in this case)?



Don't you think you may be a little premature in your judgment of Culinaria and the OPO in general?



Do you think that people's expectations were for 5,000 people to immediately move downtown AS SOON as culinaria opened?



Maybe look at it as a viable downtown staple that is necessary for FUTURE growth of an actual downtown population?



Wait and see how this area transforms when Roberts Tower begins to be occupied? Wait to see what comes into the Syndicate retail space? Wait to see what happens once this economy that has temporarily stalled downtown development gives way and the arcade and alexia are finished?



Do you really see no difference in downtown from 1995 to now?



I'll stop for the sake of everyone else.

Grover wrote:I'd probably be fired up if Schnuck's wasn't a very successful local businesses. Spending money at Schnuck's keeps money in St. Louis - unlike a Target or Walmart.

Tsk, tsk. Don't you remember that St. Louis isn't progressive because our major grocery chains are local and originated as mom-and-pop general stores?



(I know I shouldn't keep bringing that up- I just see locally-based chains as a strength, not a weakness.)

ThreeOneFour wrote:

Grover wrote:I'd probably be fired up if Schnuck's wasn't a very successful local businesses. Spending money at Schnuck's keeps money in St. Louis - unlike a Target or Walmart.

Tsk, tsk. Don't you remember that St. Louis isn't progressive because our major grocery chains are local and originated as mom-and-pop general stores?

It's too bad you weren't in STL back in the 80s, when we had Kroger and Price Chopper. It was like freaking Berkley up in here.

Doug wrote:Monied interests ignoring reality determining what downtown needs -- at the expense of historic buildings and existing businesses -- conjoin Real Estate Row to the Demolition of the Century Building and Culinaria.

I think this comment begs the question: "What is reality?" Additionally, are there alternative realities and if so, why do some people choose to live in them?

Doug wrote:You know what attracts more residents? Local businesses that don't exist in suburbia or anywhere else across the country. You know what keeps them away? Shuttered store fronts and excessive parking promoting and enforcing the perception that Downtown is dead devoid of life.

If certain niches are met in a given area, that opens the doors for other forms of retail or services to flourish. Unless, of course, the success of downtown hinges on being a mecca of coffee shops and grocery stores. You know, like maybe a hardware store could be nice. Or electronics...

Doug wrote:


You know what really keeps revenue in St. Louis City[/i]? Espresso Mod, City Grocers expanding into the Syndicate, residential in the Century Building, a new grocery store on Washington Avenue, and some new construction on the block where Louis Sullivan's Victoria Building once stood. You know what attracts more residents? Local businesses that don't exist in suburbia or anywhere else across the country. You know what keeps them away? Shuttered store fronts and excessive parking promoting and enforcing the perception that Downtown is dead devoid of life. Dead streets also further the stigma that it's dangerous. With Culinaria we got unneeded parking, the closure of surrounding unique businesses, and the loss of an irreplaceable building only for Mayor Slay's proclamations that Downtown is back. If not for Mayor Slay, and the cabal he represents, the OPO District would be in much better condition -- it was well on its way before he obstructed that progress.

You know what got my revenue to St. Louis City? A low-priced condo next door to a full-service grocery store. A variety of stores, restaurants, and parks all within walking distance. Sorry, Doug, but the St. Louis you have in your imagination will never come to fruition. I agree that mistakes have been made (Real Estate Row, Century Building, etc.), but we cannot spend all of our time crying about these mistakes; we have to move on and fight new battles. As innov8ion wrote, you are obviously very intelligent and passionate, but it is a real turn-off to hear the same arguments over and over. If you do not think that the 10,000 downtown residents are an improvement over what was there in 1990, then I don't think that you will ever be satisfied. Is it perfect? Of course not! And we need to work to preserve the buildings we have left. But not everything is about evil capitalists trying to crush the little guy. If you took a poll, I think that you would find that, while Culinaria has hurt downtown in some respects, it has helped to an infinitely greater amount.

Doug wrote:
The same goes for Real Estate Row. If not for Mayor Schoemehl and Pride of St. Louis Corporation -- aka bankers, CEO's, the owners of surrounding buildings -- we would still have the irreplaceable National Register resources which housed firms that existed in the City for decades -- some before World War Two. If not for them we would, instead of having the Millennium Park wannabe Citygarden, benefit from two blocks of urban historic buildings which contain businesses and residential that generates activity 24/7.

Y'know what? I like Citygarden. I don't see it as a "wannabe" Millenium Park any more than I see St. Louis as a "wannabe" Chicago. It's not, and we're not.

Doug wrote:
My criticism does not seek to deny progress Downtown, but rather point out that our repetition of mistakes, which were proven failures, undermines all efforts to date. We will never have a residential district worthy of the designation with the continued proliferation of parking, the demolition of our historic economic resources, construction of plazas and parks where density once existed and should yet again, and finally preferential treatment granted towards politically favored businesses and interests at the expense of others -- who have actual merit.

You are right, those failed. But this is the best downtown has been in 30 years. I honestly am not sure that we have the critical mass of residents to sustain all possible downturns/issues, but every time I hear about a project being restarted I feel ever more confident that we are on track not to "bring downtown back" but to "bring downtown into the future". There is a distinction between romanticizing the past and attempting to recreate it, and looking towards the future and how we can integrate the past.



I agree with you about the density issue. Unlike you, I am not concerned because I believe that, as the last of the historical buildings are rehabbed (cheaper than building new as you surely know), new buildings will be built on those parking lots. As property values increase (due to increased demand), the possibility that the privately-owned parks and plazas will be converted into buildings increases. Assuming that all goes well (and I am not assuming that, for the record), we will eventually have little to know surface lots and all of the garages will have street-level retail. Ok, I know you are going to take issue with that. I can't help but to be condescending on this one: we are a car-nation. That is not going to change in the next 30 years, at least. I live downtown but work in the county. My fiance is in the same boat. We need two cars. We need to park. The 80,000 employees downtown (who support the locally-owned restaurants and shops in addition to Culinaria, I might add) have to get down there somehow, and for many the metro is not an [attractive] option. It's time to get real and quit whining about garages. If they tear a building down to build one, that is a problem. But if they have to have four levels of a garage built in a building that will house apartments, a hotel, or condos, well, that is the support it takes. And if an empty lot becomes a garage, hey, at least it makes it look more dense.



Doug, I love your passion and your immense knowledge of St. Louis history. I hope that you will direct them both towards the future.

DeBaliviere wrote:This is just anecdotal, of course, but I've visited City Gourmet several times in the last few weeks, and it seems like there has always been a pretty steady stream of customers there, even at weird times. It's not Culinaria traffic, but at least people haven't completely given up on City Gourmet. I may have to stop in at lunchtime to see how busy it is.

City Gourmet, at least at lunch, offers unique things that Culinaria does not. I have been hitting the stir fry at least twice a week. There are a few in my office who can't get enough of the burrito thing. I'd eat at City Gourmet any day over Culinaria.