This sucks, but hopefully the Culinaria's novelty factor is beginning to wear off, and things will fall back into a normal balance. Planet Sub still seems pretty busy, but the slowdown at Espresso Mod and Balada's is pretty noticeable - those places need our support!
Did we ever learn the reason for the Pasta House's demise? Was it declining business or is one of the OPO's other tenants taking the space?
kleancut wrote:ok epic fail might of been extreme..
but why would a big retail company like old navy want to plant them selves in this, when four retail shops just hit town within these past 2 months.
By "hit town" you mean closed?
Old Navy is interested because they believe downtown residents, and those nearby, want inexpensive, trendy clothing. There are not other options. Culinaria certainly steals from other businesses - competing directly, but other businesses would not. Think Best Buy - there's no local competition for what they sell - at least not downtown....
I love having Culinaria downtown for groceries, and I like having more options for quick bites, but seriously, if these places are being hurt by Culinaria, then that should say something about their product. Don't get me wrong, Culinaria is not bad, but I would not eat there unless I had another reason to be there already (picking up Rx's, groceries, etc.). Maybe downtown office workers just prefer bland food? If people are choosing Culinaria over EspressoMod/Planet Sub/Baladas then it is time for them to rethink their value proposition. Blaming Culinaria will do no good.
Hit Town as in it doesnt matter if they closed or moved. they arent downtown.
Keep in mind us little guys who are surviving have winter coming around.
When winter comes around, that also means conventions nearly drop 75%. On top of, business owners joke that people arent hungry when its cold. People stay in.
Id love to have a big company such as Old Navy come here. Im tired of sending St Louis vistors to Macys..=\
STL63101 wrote:Every restaurant (of the fast foodish type) within 4 or 5 blocks of Culinaria has been affected noticeably by the opening of Culinaria. This is quite evident in the weekday lunch business. Just ask any of them. Those that were doing well (just a few of them) are now scraping and cutting back, those that were on the edge are suffering pretty badly. It is sad, that we are probably going to lose at least 2 or 3 of them by the end of the year...
such an accurate statement.
BL211 wrote:Off the top of my head...
The owner of Baladas was on camera and said his business is down 50%.
The owner of Espresso Mod was quoted as saying his losses were similar.
A representative of Planet Sub said their sales were down either 50% or 15% (I couldn't make out which).
I think the owner's main beef (pardon the pun) is that public money was used to finance part of this project and thus unfairly compete against their stores.
gopher wrote:I think the owner's main beef (pardon the pun) is that public money was used to finance part of this project and thus unfairly compete against their stores.
Damned if we do and damned if we don't.
Yep. Because there's plenty of public money to go around and more public money to help the damaged retailers with most certainly solve the problem. [/sarcasm]
gopher wrote:I think the owner's main beef (pardon the pun) is that public money was used to finance part of this project and thus unfairly compete against their stores.
Damned if we do and damned if we don't.
I won't disagree that independent businesses are at a disadvantage, but public money also went to rehabbing nearly all buildings on Wash Ave and downtown. And public money has gone to streetscape improvements. In the end it's a difficult and delicate balance to provide enough unique shops to be appealing while also catering to the masses.
Wasn't public money used to finance many/most of the downtown projects? Correct me if I am wrong, but the businesses in the Paul Brown have benefitted from public money as did the Pasta House. I hate to see these businesses closing, and it goes against the feeling that downtown is continuing to get better, but I do not think that Culinaria is to blame on this. The same thing could have happened if a bland cafeteria with relatively low prices opened up. I think that Planet Subs has some of the best sandwiches downtown and I cannot imagine eating one from Culinaria after going to PS.
On a somewhat related note, I find it interesting that small restaurants in Creve Coeur seem to do well, despite there being a plethora of grocery stores with their medicore lunch food around. Maybe it is just the novelty of Culinaria [fingers crossed].
gopher wrote:I think the owner's main beef (pardon the pun) is that public money was used to finance part of this project and thus unfairly compete against their stores.
Damned if we do and damned if we don't.
I won't disagree that independent businesses are at a disadvantage, but public money also went to rehabbing nearly all buildings on Wash Ave and downtown. And public money has gone to streetscape improvements. In the end it's a difficult and delicate balance to provide enough unique shops to be appealing while also catering to the masses.
Public money even went to certain small retailers through city programs aimed at attracting more businesses downtown.
I think we realize that this issue is rife with emotion and is a difficult one. From a pragmatic perspective, we also understand that nothing exists in a vacuum. B*tching may serve as a means of catharsis but it has yet to ever solve a single problem that I know of. Placing blame on Culinaria will not keep these great business afloat. Individual strategies must be rehoned and executed -- the free market will take care of the rest.
In the end, I think we have to ask ourselves what the other alternatives were. Would we have been better if Culinaria never arrived? I don't think so.
BL211 wrote:I watched the report last night on KMOV and I agree that the situation is certainly not fair and I sympathize with the owners of the affected businesses
I'm curious... has anyone seen any advertising or marketing efforts from any of these businesses? Things are changing fast everywhere and you can't expect anything to stay the same (at least) without some additional effort.
I need to clarify I didn't mean to imply that the business mentioned in the story are not advertising or taking action. I only meant that I haven't seen it personally.
Inno, you say free market, but the problem that is being brought forward here is that this is not a "free market" situation. Culinaria received a significant amount of subsidy to open their grocery/restaurant. If it were an even playing field where everyone opens with the same scale of subsidy, then that would be different. None of the restaurants that are complaining received ANY subsidy, except for City Gourmet (who has not been part of this discussion by the way) For the last 5 years, restaurants were excluded from any subsidy or forgivable loan program (this is fact, not supposition) There are restaurants such as Kitchen K and Mosaic, as well as I believe, 10th St. Italian that received some subsidy or forgivable loan at the time of their opening, but that program excluded restaurants pretty early on and the shifted it focus to retail operations only.
^ Exactly. Your post does a good job of showing that a pure "free market" does not exist and hasn't for some time. I wish people would just stop referring to the concept; it's nothing but theoretical and consequently does not hold much relevance to any discussion about current issues because it ignores the underlying organization of our economic system.
STL63101 wrote:Inno, you say free market, but the problem that is being brought forward here is that this is not a "free market" situation. Culinaria received a significant amount of subsidy to open their grocery/restaurant. If it were an even playing field where everyone opens with the same scale of subsidy, then that would be different. None of the restaurants that are complaining received ANY subsidy, except for City Gourmet (who has not been part of this discussion by the way) For the last 5 years, restaurants were excluded from any subsidy or forgivable loan program (this is fact, not supposition) There are restaurants such as Kitchen K and Mosaic, as well as I believe, 10th St. Italian that received some subsidy or forgivable loan at the time of their opening, but that program excluded restaurants pretty early on and the shifted it focus to retail operations only.
But I do think that it's worth noting the amount of subsidies involved with all (as far as I know) new retail storefronts downtown. Even without direct subsidies small businesses only exist downtown due to very substantial subsides - whether that be tax credits to build lofts, etc. It would be interesting to see what the "scale" of subsidies actually are. Do you calculate based on square footage? Amount of tax revenue generated?
The restaurants that are hurting right now would be best served by increasing their marketing efforts and working on improvements to menu, service, etc.
The restaurants that are hurting right now would be best served by increasing their marketing efforts and working on improvements to menu, service, etc.
Amen!
I, too, am a small business company owner in STL - and we HAVE plenty of competition in the market from across the metro not just the neighborhood... to retain your business you must consistently maintain a level of service, quality, and excellent marketing.
I could b**** and b**** about how several of my competitors have been given unfair advantages in some cases over us - but what good is that - you fight for your market and customers. How about having some of your employees on the streets around Old post office Square with samples, coupns, free drink offer, etc... How about better signage, walking buisnesses and workers with information, flyers, excellent website presence, referal programs, etc..... These are EASY and CHEAP means of marketing that can be done CONSISTENTLY day after day to draw in the business. Even if you get 10 customers walking into your store and buying your product because of your "offer" or coupon... you have won... especially if you are offering a GOOD product - they will come back and they will bring someone or tell a friend. REFERRAL programs are excellent. Again - this is EASY and inexpensive marketing and I don't see ANY of it being done around OPO Square! If you close up shop because your competition "beat" you - you don't "blame" the competition! Competetion is part of business, and if someone is doing it better than you - well....
In regards to getting "hand outs" and subsidies - almost EVERY downtown building has got em ... as for companies - they are out there in many ways if you look - as for free trade - welcome to America!
sorry to be such a grouch - but come on! If you want to be a successful business - you can't whine and complain about the competition - make your company THEIR competition.!
innov8ion wrote:I think we realize that this issue is rife with emotion and is a difficult one. From a pragmatic perspective, we also understand that nothing exists in a vacuum. B*tching may serve as a means of catharsis but it has yet to ever solve a single problem that I know of. Placing blame on Culinaria will not keep these great business afloat. Individual strategies must be rehoned and executed -- the free market will take care of the rest.
In the end, I think we have to ask ourselves what the other alternatives were. Would we have been better if Culinaria never arrived? I don't think so.
DeBaliviere wrote:The restaurants that are hurting right now would be best served by increasing their marketing efforts and working on improvements to menu, service, etc.
Exactly. I want to see these businesses do well. But blaming Culinaria isn't the answer.
STL63101 wrote:Inno, you say free market, but the problem that is being brought forward here is that this is not a "free market" situation. Culinaria received a significant amount of subsidy to open their grocery/restaurant. If it were an even playing field where everyone opens with the same scale of subsidy, then that would be different. None of the restaurants that are complaining received ANY subsidy, except for City Gourmet (who has not been part of this discussion by the way) For the last 5 years, restaurants were excluded from any subsidy or forgivable loan program (this is fact, not supposition) There are restaurants such as Kitchen K and Mosaic, as well as I believe, 10th St. Italian that received some subsidy or forgivable loan at the time of their opening, but that program excluded restaurants pretty early on and the shifted it focus to retail operations only.
John Dalton, owner of Baladas, is a salt of the earth kind of guy. He's hilarious, thoughtful and wicked smart. I randomly had drinks with kleancut a month or two ago at Nara Cafe and had a blast. We're talking about businesses run by wonderful people that most of us that know them care about...
With that said, what could be done? Perhaps tie the subsidy to a restriction on prepared foods? Was that plausible? If you were king, how would you have dealt with this situation? (Not conducting the deal to bring Culinaria downtown is probably the wrong answer.)
I'm on day number 3 of having lunch only at downtown non-chain places. Hopefully a few more weeks of this and I will have atoned for the sins of having eaten at Culinaria.
Culinaria was Slay promoting his friends -- as with the destruction of the Century Building.
It wasn't free market competition. It was huge corporate interests capturing elected officials, using state power (tax credits, threatening competition as with McGowan/Heller) to stymie and end competition. Obviously this happens with politics in the fight over resources determining who gets what, but we should consider the impact of such egregiously hedonistic decisions and resulting inane outcomes that render Downtown ultimately less diverse thereby less attractive.
A 24/7 City requires diverse choice -- a mixture of uses. The impact of Culinaria has limited choice and decreased economic diversity.
Like I said before, Culinaria was a huge mistake. With the closing of Espresso Mod, having been Downtown for 4 years and the eventual decline of City Gourmet, it's omnipresent we've made a mistake ever undermining Downtown's diversity and sense of place. Downtown cannot thrive as a monoculture. Seeking to import Chesterfield at the expense of our small businesses will destroy the identity of Downtown which attracts and encourages residency.
Now I shouldn't only blame Slay, as we have this underlying fetish of trying to attract large corporations under the misguided front of luring suburbanites (as if they will live here simply disregarding our plethora of parking and decades of being behind the ball on residential development Downtown). This occurred with Real Estate Row as Pride of St. Louis Corporation ousted the small businesses residing in those buildings in order to promote their own office buildings -- under the argument that it was economic development promoting the City, attracting new corporations keeping us competitive with suburbia. It didn't and many firms which were here for decades left entirely ironically to the suburbs.
But ultimately what attracts worthwhile corporations -- and ultimately residents -- would be diversity, not parking garages, bland single use office buildings, and re-packaged chain stores trying and failing to appear unique. Culinaria is Schnucks. It has no soul. It wasn't entrepreneurial taking a risk on Downtown as Craig Heller did more than a decade ago. It has no unique identity, a story to tell, it adds nothing to the collective diversity and place of Downtown. Small businesses do this and their authenticity and scarcity of experience -- like our historic buildings -- attracts because you can't get them everywhere. Employees and corporations from out of town, those we need, don't want a bland Downtown with a surplus of parking and singular economic choice. Downtown devolves into essentially a hybrid; neither a strict office park nor a dense central business district or neighborhood. It falls into neither category with the insufficient critical mass to form an urban residential community, while lacks the true idyllic suburban office park environment categorized by seas of parking, minuscule malnourished foliage, and limited minority presence. Those who want strict urban or suburban really find neither.
We must decide what we want to be because we can't chose both and expect to grow. We can't claim to promote residency then demolish adaptable historic buildings, erect parking garages where condos should be, and drive out businesses which residents would and did support because of their high value due to scarcity. St. Louis, if it wants an actual Downtown with life, must then categorically thrown out the old model of excessive parking and promote that which provides the 24/7 environment -- what critics have been saying we needed for decades. It's insane. I'm essentially reiterating arguments made in 1975. Why should this even be up for debate!
If Culinaria puts all competition out of business they have market power controlling price -- thus undermining the original arguments for inviting them Downtown (that City Grocers was too expensive). If the City creates political barriers protecting their monopoly over the Downtown market then the situation exacerbates. This was a bad economic decision for consumers and the City, but we all seem to believe Room 200's effective issue framing.
This is an epic fail. We had an organic Downtown developing which offered an experience that my exurban mother commented, and really anyone with capacity understands, didn't exist in our Region. We destroyed our comparative advantage, architectural history and the opportunity for more residents and a lively Old Post Office District, for the careerist ambitions of a Mayor who desires to be another Richard J. Daley. Four consecutive mayoral terms should not come at such a high price which we cannot suffer.
