urbanSTL

^ it's apples and oranges. KC is a modern streetcar and not a tourist trolley

Right. It's an actually trolley for only double the price. Think about that.

Still, kudos to Edwards. He didn't know it would cost more? Get real. He's a multi millionaire that has developed numerous projects. Did he know he could get it passed then spoon feed the cost overruns? Much easier to pull that move. I'd try it to continue to bolster my empire; because ultimately that's what this project does.

One thing that gets loss in all this, one of the weakest aspects of budgeting and planning on a lot of projects especially public infrastructure is that the effort and resources is weak when it comes to estimating not too mention the fact that the original budget estimates are typically on 10-20% design. In other words, the design is far from complete and rarely do you have all the site information and investigation done from geotechnical to utility relocation. Then the final designs are completed, site info & investigation might or might not be good and a reality check when bids go out versus what was really a budget number to begin with.

Also, I tend to think in my experience in construction is that Ameren & the likes are brutal in terms of utilities, scheduling and over inflating the cost items nor do you have any choice. In a lot of ways like bridge construction over a railroad right of way. A lot of dollars are built into a schedule where you are utterly dependent on a third party telling you when can perform work and for how long.

^ public utilities that are located in public right of way (which Ameren is or Laclede or MSD) do not get reimbursed for moving their lines when its a public project. Reason is they got to put their lines there for free but with the risk of having to move them whenever. Now yes Ameren will not relocate its lines in the summer time or Laclede in the winter during peak usage but a good project manager knows all of this.

imran wrote:

dbInSouthCity wrote:^ it's apples and oranges. KC is a modern streetcar and not a tourist trolley

So you would support the Loop Trolley if it had newer cars even if it cost over a 100 million? (I suspect not).

I would not. i would support a $200m streetcar from downtown through the central corridor.

My whole issue here isnt that this is over budget my issue is the way they tried to hide it...and how the funds got transferred from EastWest Gateway to FTA to avoid detection and nobody (from loop trolley) was going to say anything if they didnt have to.
Bigger question now is how did St.Charles and Franklin and Jefferson County reps at the East-West Gateway Board of Directors go along allocating $5.3M extra $ to this job...my best guess is they got something in return.

What a disaster! Guess we should stick to stadiums and highway expansions on the edges of the region.

ttricamo wrote:Also, I think calling this trolley 2.2 miles is complete smoke and mirrors. How much of that is spent rolling up and down the strip of the current "Loop" for pure theatrics? What is the actual usable mileage it covers? You would need that number to actually compare it to real street car development...which happens in EVERY other major city.

Let's also not forget that the majority of this streetcar line is single tracked and unknown ability to handle 10-minute headways.

quincunx wrote:What a disaster! Guess we should stick to stadiums and highway expansions on the edges of the region.

I don't follow the relationship between a the loop trolley trying to hide the true cost of their project and stadiums nor east west gateway policy on regional transportation system

Is this new news? I thought that's why they leased the ones from Portland.

Nice graphic of the Loop with the trolley tracks and stations illustrated:

^^^ I love how the 3 Loop Trolley stops in the Delmar Loop (other than the essential one at the far west end) are right at the footsteps of Blueberry Hill, Peacock Diner, and The Pageant. Hmmmm.

This reminds me of Ballpark Village/ Cordish putting mostly their own concepts in BPV which was largely funded by subsidy--- "hey, let's do something that supposedly transformative for St Louis so we can get all that subsidy money but let's do it for (mostly) our own benefit".

^Investment usually comes with the hope of some personal gain. With Joe Edwards, he has a track record of making investments that are of benefit to St. Louis. And that's important to him because St. Louis isn't just a place he does business in, it's where he lives.

And in those ways, Joe Edwards contrasts with Cordish, so much.

Does he have a vested interest in this? Yes. Does that make it a bad development? Not at all.

Anybody know exactly how close the tracks were built to the curb?

thought i saw a story on ch 2 that if a car parked and a trolley was coming down the driver wouldn't be able to open the door. whatever it is the survey company should give back the $ in charged for the survey work.

^If a car parked and a car was coming could the driver open their door? It's basically the same scenario.

I think the present scenario is you can open the door and the car coming most likely won't hit it since it isn't on a fixed track like the trolley. Clearance is probably about 1-2 feet right now, the trolley would be above 3-4 inches.

Should A person always checks to see if anything is coming? Yes. Do people do it always? Nope.