All we need now is a Hyperloop test track.
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I don't think I'm as negative on this project as the rest of you.
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I'm not negative on it. I like the zooline railroad!Presbyterian wrote:I don't think I'm as negative on this project as the rest of you.
Biggest takeaway from the NY Times article is that some regional ATL leaders are already calling it out as a colossal waste of money. So basically, people are just always going to $itch no matter what money is spent on. Mass transit was one of the modes of spending that has been cited as something better that pro sports, yet here's an example of that being snuffed also. There's no winning in the game of pleasing the masses.
As far as the Loop Trolley itself, I don't think there's much of a downside. Even if the "ridership" doesn't hit projections or is slow. At worst, you've enhanced the neighborhood and tangibly increased the punch (especially among tourists) for the MO History Museum and Loop. A family coming to STL for the first time who can read and learn about the streetcars at the museum, then ride one into the Loop to Blueberry Hill has much more of a story then driving over to the Loop. This also enhances and improves safety for pedestrians and residents in DeBaliviere Place who wish to use the Loop. Not everyone has a bike or wants to walk if it's cold, snowy, ridiculously hot, etc. Then there's the potential for continued additional tracks if it does become a success or potentially stimulate development along DeBaliviere.
As far as the Loop Trolley itself, I don't think there's much of a downside. Even if the "ridership" doesn't hit projections or is slow. At worst, you've enhanced the neighborhood and tangibly increased the punch (especially among tourists) for the MO History Museum and Loop. A family coming to STL for the first time who can read and learn about the streetcars at the museum, then ride one into the Loop to Blueberry Hill has much more of a story then driving over to the Loop. This also enhances and improves safety for pedestrians and residents in DeBaliviere Place who wish to use the Loop. Not everyone has a bike or wants to walk if it's cold, snowy, ridiculously hot, etc. Then there's the potential for continued additional tracks if it does become a success or potentially stimulate development along DeBaliviere.
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^ Agreed about the Loop Trolley. Also, I read the NYT article as Atlanta's equivalent of the Show-Me Institute calling it a waste of money. I thought the article was pretty much junk and way too premature on whether paid fares will lead to disaster.
^^The comment about walking (or riding a bike) in cold or snowy weather rings true after this week. The snow hadn't come yet, but I was dropped off in the Loop last weekend, and when the Pin-up Bowl was too crowded, we decided to head over to Blueberry Hill. That's not a long walk, but let me tell you, it was a cold one.
I don't know how frequent the service times are, and I'm still unclear on how they're going to price the thing. But if there was any convenient way to hope on the trolley for a few blocks and keep my body temperature up, I'd surely have done so.
I know that's not a year round concern, but ya know what, there are going to be other times when it's hot as heck outside and the and the same train (NPI) thought applies. Maybe it won't be convenient enough to matter... but maybe it will.
I don't know how frequent the service times are, and I'm still unclear on how they're going to price the thing. But if there was any convenient way to hope on the trolley for a few blocks and keep my body temperature up, I'd surely have done so.
I know that's not a year round concern, but ya know what, there are going to be other times when it's hot as heck outside and the and the same train (NPI) thought applies. Maybe it won't be convenient enough to matter... but maybe it will.
Surveyors and system operators in St. Louis nor Kansas City obviously didn't consider cars when designing tracks.
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Blog Commentary: TKC BREAKING AND EXCLUSIVE NEWS!!! KANSAS CITY TOY TRAIN STREETCAR LINES TOO SMALL FOR MOST CARS!!!
Make sure to read some of the comments. Some of them sound like some St. Louisans. I guess it's just Missourah. LOL!
Blog Commentary: TKC BREAKING AND EXCLUSIVE NEWS!!! KANSAS CITY TOY TRAIN STREETCAR LINES TOO SMALL FOR MOST CARS!!!
Make sure to read some of the comments. Some of them sound like some St. Louisans. I guess it's just Missourah. LOL!
More photos from KC Streetcar testing.
See, the Delmar Loop Trolley in St. Louis is not alone when it comes to having a few issues.
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See, the Delmar Loop Trolley in St. Louis is not alone when it comes to having a few issues.
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^^
priceless.Anonymous said...
Ongoing war against cars, plain and simple.
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It does seem like their parking lane is not wide enough. Why go to the trouble of building the lane if you're pretty sure most cars won't fit?
People are human. Having cars and trains share the same lane of travel, without physical separation, is in general a very bad idea.
You made an obvious statement, followed by an opinion. And the latter does not flow from the former. Care to elaborate? Sharing the street seems to work fine in many places around the world.Randy wrote:People are human. Having cars and trains share the same lane of travel, without physical separation, is in general a very bad idea.
^ In general I agree with Randy. I have a number of draft blog posts wherein I was going to argue for 75%+ dedicated right-of-way for the St. Louis Streetcar. Since I accidentally deleted my drafts a few months ago, this link will have to do.
Most importantly, almost every one of the major streetcar projects proposed has refused to separate trains from automobile traffic for the majority of the routes, despite the fact that doing so usually requires little more than different types of paint, camera enforcement, and a few barriers, all of which can be installed at minimal cost.
This means that streetcars will be stuck in the same traffic as everyone else, making speed improvements impossible. The lack of dedicated street right-of-way for streetcars likely stems from a sense that it would be politically difficult to promote removing lanes from automobilists and providing them to transit users. Yet the vast majority of traffic lanes, after all, are off-limits to trains; why is it so crazy to imagine a few dedicated to streetcars?
WUSTL - New bike route helps cyclists avoid Loop Trolley tracks
https://source.wustl.edu/2016/02/new-bi ... ey-tracks/
https://source.wustl.edu/2016/02/new-bi ... ey-tracks/
^ I would check out KC Streetcar's Facebook page and see all of the issues they are having with testing:
The big problem I see happening on Delmar (which will continue to exacerbate with development), is vehicular and pedestrian traffic, especially around Skinker @ Delmar, delaying the trolley schedule considerably and making it pretty much useless as a transit option.
I am not sure why US cities are so convinced that it is a good idea to have streetcar tracks share pavement with cars. It's just not a good idea.
- Cars, delivery trucks, etc. stopping/standing/parking on top of the tracks
- Cars (especially large SUVs) parked a little too far into the street, making it too dangerous for the streetcar to pass
The big problem I see happening on Delmar (which will continue to exacerbate with development), is vehicular and pedestrian traffic, especially around Skinker @ Delmar, delaying the trolley schedule considerably and making it pretty much useless as a transit option.
I am not sure why US cities are so convinced that it is a good idea to have streetcar tracks share pavement with cars. It's just not a good idea.
^ I think part of it is just reality of yesterday vs today, whether it be larger SUV's now or how many more had to use transit a while back when the auto was not financially viable for a lot of working people and those differences not being accounted for in today's design and placement. What you see with the loop trolley and KC seems like a lack to details and attention with some of the design or maybe just outright local politics.
Due you plan on street parking & streetcar tracks based on average vehicle size or largest SUV in the market? Does street width constraints mean that you should eliminate parking when presenting design or design accommodate local stakeholders who want street parking to & will make sure it remains in place? In other words, you know the design is flawed but stakeholders are in denial of what some of the outcomes until it is up and running as in the case of the KC streetcar.
In addition most contractors, being someone who works for one, will most of the time be glad to build to spec and turn around & give a price on a change order or mod on a contract in hand. I doubt many contractors will go out of their way to check to see if the design had given enough room for street parking between the tracks & sidewalks because it doesn't impact construction nor is there any contractual incentive to check an engineers design work.
Due you plan on street parking & streetcar tracks based on average vehicle size or largest SUV in the market? Does street width constraints mean that you should eliminate parking when presenting design or design accommodate local stakeholders who want street parking to & will make sure it remains in place? In other words, you know the design is flawed but stakeholders are in denial of what some of the outcomes until it is up and running as in the case of the KC streetcar.
In addition most contractors, being someone who works for one, will most of the time be glad to build to spec and turn around & give a price on a change order or mod on a contract in hand. I doubt many contractors will go out of their way to check to see if the design had given enough room for street parking between the tracks & sidewalks because it doesn't impact construction nor is there any contractual incentive to check an engineers design work.
KC streetcar collides with Mercedes
Mar 2, 2016, 8:33am CST
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A Mercedes owner learned the hard way that it's vital to park inside the white lines along Main Street in Kansas City, KSHB reports.
A southbound Kansas City streetcar hit the illegally parked Mercedes at 20th and Main streets Tuesday afternoon during scheduled testing. The Mercedes was parked several feet away from the curb and well outside the white lines that run parallel to the streetcar tracks. The streetcar had minor damage but was still operational. No injuries were reported.
Through social media, public service announcements and signage, the Kansas City Streetcar Authority Inc. has worked to educate the public about the importance of parking inside the white lines. Vehicles parked outside the lines are susceptible to being hit by the streetcar.
Read More
Mar 2, 2016, 8:33am CST
A Mercedes owner learned the hard way that it's vital to park inside the white lines along Main Street in Kansas City, KSHB reports.
A southbound Kansas City streetcar hit the illegally parked Mercedes at 20th and Main streets Tuesday afternoon during scheduled testing. The Mercedes was parked several feet away from the curb and well outside the white lines that run parallel to the streetcar tracks. The streetcar had minor damage but was still operational. No injuries were reported.
Through social media, public service announcements and signage, the Kansas City Streetcar Authority Inc. has worked to educate the public about the importance of parking inside the white lines. Vehicles parked outside the lines are susceptible to being hit by the streetcar.
Read More
VIDEO
(of illegally parked cars on tracks during KC Streetcar testing)
(of illegally parked cars on tracks during KC Streetcar testing)
^ This is kind of the rail/transit sharing the car lane is the bike lane equivalent of sharrows. Completely silly and does not scale with traffic at all. Hopefully if St. Louis Streetcar gets going again we can avoid the same mistakes.
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I don't think the trolley not looping around History museum is not a bad thing. Actually think the trolley would be better served if it extended past the museum through Forest Park with stop at Zoo ending up either in Hampton Ave/Highland/Forest Park Community college or back around to FPSE
Lindell at DeBaliviere
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Delmar at DeBaliviere
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It appears crosswalks are missing on the north side of Pershing at DeBaliviere, the west side of DeBaliviere at Delmar, and the east side of Goodfellow at Delmar.
Delmar at DeBaliviere
It appears crosswalks are missing on the north side of Pershing at DeBaliviere, the west side of DeBaliviere at Delmar, and the east side of Goodfellow at Delmar.
They said on KSDK tonight the reason for the shift towards the curb is for the left turn lane from WB Delmar onto Skinker.quincunx wrote:Was there a reason given as to why the tracks were built close to the curb east of Skinker? They shift away from the curb by the RAC. Why aren't they that far away all the way to Skinker?
