urbanSTL

Gosh, that looks cool. It's the kind of building that Doesn't Get Built in St. Louis But Gets Built Seemingly Everywhere Else.

A 25-year abatement seems like overkill in that location, but I would be flexible if I were on the BoA. You gotta reward people for taking a chance and being the first to build new office in decades. Tax the people who hop on the bandwagon later, when downtown is more desirable again and you have more leverage.

^An abatement isn't intended to be a reward though. It's intended to make an unviable (or minimally viable) development viable.
Somewhere along the line, we have morphed that into something else entirely.
Again, with over half of the property tax bill going to the public (and public charter) schools, which are a necessary component of a vibrant, growing city, we need to be careful we don't rob Peter to pay Paul.
When we abate these properties that don't necessarily need it, we are leaving dollars on the table which could be bettering the city in the most fundamental way. Education, and the opportunities it affords, are crucial to breaking the cycle of poverty.

St.Louis1764 wrote:More i think of this development i kind of wish they add at least several more floors as i think this location is another prime location for residential in fact i think this would be a great location to add a mix of office residential and retail as its close to the metro station

Actually, changing my thought and going the other way. Not smaller, but a nice 5-7 story sleek office building s rendered awith some ground floor retail fits in my opinion. I can see a nice mix of the old Cupples warehouses with couple nice infill projects with the same height more or less but the variation of design that some infill can offer.

Changing my mind in part because I rather see a tower on the east side of Busch Stadium. Get some stories on that development and now you got views into Busch stadium looking at home plate on one side and sweeping view of the Arch Grounds/Mississippi River on the other. Both can be office and BPV can fill in with a mix of residential/hotel towers along Clark.

Have we figured out what the 'new building' designation means? It almost feels like these renderings are incomplete?

andrewarkills wrote:^An abatement isn't intended to be a reward though. It's intended to make an unviable (or minimally viable) development viable.
Somewhere along the line, we have morphed that into something else entirely.
Again, with over half of the property tax bill going to the public (and public charter) schools, which are a necessary component of a vibrant, growing city, we need to be careful we don't rob Peter to pay Paul.
When we abate these properties that don't necessarily need it, we are leaving dollars on the table which could be bettering the city in the most fundamental way. Education, and the opportunities it affords, are crucial to breaking the cycle of poverty.

On the other hand, letting a property sit abandoned or undeveloped also nets zero revenue for the city, and sometimes negative revenue when maintenance costs are factored in--while at the same time reducing the value and desirability of the land around it.

That's why I'm totally nonplussed at the outrage over McKee's TIF and tax abatement money. The city has gotten nearly 0 revenue out of that property for the last couple of decades, while the blight has encouraged more blight in the surrounding areas. Maybe if we had TIFs 30 years ago in north city, that would all be productive property at this point, and the entire city fabric would be more solid. If McKee doesn't develop that property, I doubt there's anyone else that will come forward. No one has over the last 50 or so years.

I agree, although this is prime real estate, so I still don't think 25 years is justified. You might be able to talk me into 15-20...I think most people on this thread even seem fine with 15.

I'm also willing to be more flexible on this project not only because it's the first new DT office in decades, but because of the TOD effect. It will likely work to increase ridership on the Metro system.

Why subsidize this when AT&T building is empty? 1010 Market sells for a song and is mostly empty?

chaifetz10 wrote:

St.Louis1764 wrote:here are a few tech companies that may set up shop downtown google apple square twitter Facebook comcast charter amazon just to name a few

Not really a true representation of companies that might have interest in downtown offices though. You can't just list out random tech companies, especially a list that includes some with zero presence in STL and others that have recently announced plans elsewhere in the region (or have seen there corporate presence decline in the region).

I was only being spontaneous when typing company names i could think of plenty others that don't have no presence or little or a lot of presence here and just because a company may not have a significant presence or no presence doesn't mean they'll never set up shop here anything is possible the future is constantly changing.

Arch i agree with you Downtown is in near desperate need of some new modern office space be this project i think the time is now to pull the trigger specially with Clayton and Centene. If downtown wants to remain the epicenter of the region they better start acting now 300-400 well paying may be well worth it and hopefully this will become a domino effect.

^ Not sure what is the right number whether it be 10, 15 or 25 yr abatement but the reality is that both Clayton CBD and Cortex will have new ground broken for Class A space that will be available, whether it is Centene or Wexford. This is a good opportunity for city to get downtown some viable new Class A space from a reputable developer who also has a track record of brining in tenants. If anything, it keeps the status.

Did somebody say "cantilever"?

^ nice view of the elevated lanes!

btw, I don't know if it means much at all, but the board bill for incentives seems to have got stuck a bit as well as the one for the 1501 Washington boutique hotel while others such as the 170 Washington and Union Trust have already been passed.

It's definitely interesting. Thank you Alex. Have to see how that one evolves. Exciting spot.

Looks like this might be moving along. A tennet is lined up.

http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 151dd.html

So an existing downtown tenant is moving from its current location into the building which is tax abated. Isn't that a net loss as far as revenue?

"An existing downtown business is interested in moving its 310 jobs to the new $43.5 million, five-story office building planned for the parking lot just south of the Westin hotel. "

Asking for TIF money up to 20%? That seems ridiculous for space right next to the stadium. I'd say no, there is plenty of office space available downtown and especially if the major tenant is an existing one downtown

chaifetz10 wrote:Agreed. For an existing company that's too much. If it was an outside company they were bringing into the region, or a company looking to expand then I'd be more for it.

I'm holding off my opinion on more info. Article states that they company would bring in additional 280 jobs coming into the region Almost double the workforce and an employee count that downtown needs to see for reversal in fortunes..

My gut feeling it large national accounting company with expanding downtown IT presence believe looking for more space - KMGP if I got the letters right. I would say yes if that is the case. Also, just because their is space available means it is competitive Class A. Downtown could wait again for several decades with that mentality as Centene/Clayco fills up their extra space from a massive long term expansion on top of the another Clayton CBD office tower being proposed but held up by parking issue. Also in the same context, what incentives are guaranteed within the CORTEX footprint? I doubt if you will hear anyone complain if or when Microsoft announces 500 jobs being moved into the area on the 20th.

http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/ ... 151dd.html

An existing downtown business is interested in moving its 310 jobs to the new $43.5 million, five-story office building planned for the parking lot just south of the Westin hotel. And the business, which is already located downtown, could add up to 280 jobs in ensuing years, Koman representatives told the St. Louis Tax Increment Financing Commission Tuesday.

bprop wrote:So an existing downtown tenant is moving from its current location into the building which is tax abated. Isn't that a net loss as far as revenue?

"An existing downtown business is interested in moving its 310 jobs to the new $43.5 million, five-story office building planned for the parking lot just south of the Westin hotel. "

Reading through the actual TIF application, it says that the 310 existing jobs are in various sites in the city that would be consolidated in this building. In addition, there may be 280 additional jobs added there... not entirely sure if this bunch are existing jobs outside of the city that would be relocated or if these would be intended new jobs that would be created over time.

http://media.bizj.us/view/img/10198327/ ... if-app.pdf

Anyway, sounds like more details are definitely needed before this should get approved... there will be a public TIF Commission meeting in December on it.

dredger wrote: I'm holding off my opinion on more info. Article states that they company would bring in additional 280 jobs coming into the region Almost double the workforce and an employee count that downtown needs to see for reversal in fortunes..

More like

could add up to 280 jobs in ensuing years

Sorry to be a downer, but this sounds like a statement that's thrown in to sweeten the pot for the TIF. This is like saying "a retail strip mall, with possible residential, hotels, and a sports complex in the ensuing years." Let's not get burned by this kind of nonsense....again.

^ the language in the application is ambiguous, but it may be a straight-up consolidation of 310 city jobs and 280 outside jobs....

"The Project is expected to result in the consolidation of approximately 590 full-time jobs in the City, of which 280 are anticipated to be net new jobs to the City, and approximately 310 are anticipated to be retained jobs resulting from the consolidation of the prospective tenant's relocation."

If it's bringing those new jobs straight-away rather than shooting for hiring targets over time that would be a much more attractive position.

bprop, thanks for correction. I did start out with my qualification first. More info is needed but will also stand by my opinion that any new class A office space downtown will require some sort of incentives. Not sure where the best place to draw the line on how much is too much incentive or how best to offer it - TIF, tax abatements or just outright back the bonds as KC did for Power & Light.