Is there a better forum channel to discuss terrorism at UrbanSTL? Urbanism Elsewhere - The World?And lastly, I fear the Crime Thread has been hijacked by political discussion. So, if the mods would care to move this conversation so that posts more relevant to the topic, such as Gary's link to a discussion on statistical studies, can receive more attention, I would be in favor.
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"Grrr walkable suburbs!leeharveyawesome wrote:Maybe "walkable suburbs" where you live Haverscam isn't the number one target yet but yeah I think ISIS is a problem. Its a desert, prehistoric cult that kills homosexuals and women and non-believers. It is written. They just haven't got to your "walkable suburb" yet.
"[/quote]I used to live in a " walkable suburb". Too boring and safe for me just like the non-walkable suburbs. I think it fits you quite well though Haverscam. You are so smug!
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6 homicides in the city yesterday + overnight and another on Saturday for a total of 7 this July 4th weekend. I believe that is more than Chicago had.
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We? I don't do squat to keep them in poverty. I pay taxes to support all the social programs that are supposed to help "them" out of poverty. Has it worked Haverscam?MarkHaversham wrote:We do an especially good job of keeping them in poverty.
And just because you're poor doesn't mean you're inherently violent.
These are soulless pieces of sh*t who have no respect for life. This city is a fugging wreck right now and there is zero outrage because people are too politically correct to focus their anger at the thug pieces of sh*t who kill at will....what a joke...
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Like ISIS, I don't think there's a whole lot we can do to stop these shootings. Desperate people committing desperate acts. It's like we have our own mini version of ISIS running the streets of St. Louis. And like the politicians in DC debating how to deal with ISIS, there are plenty of local talking heads going on and on about crime in STL, but little changes.
Actually, there IS something that can be done. Throw anyone in jail who is guilty of a gun crime, and KEEP THEM THERE!Northside Neighbor wrote:Like ISIS, I don't think there's a whole lot we can do to stop these shootings.
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What do they call it, the "closure rate" or something like that (the rate at which crime cases are solved/closed).
I believe something like 1/2 of the murders in STL go unsolved. So forget about throwing them in jail. Most of them aren't even arrested.
I believe something like 1/2 of the murders in STL go unsolved. So forget about throwing them in jail. Most of them aren't even arrested.
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I can't follow the logic that there's too much crime because everyone loves violent thugs too much. If anything it's quite the opposite; most people view certain demographics as nothing but violent animals, rather than as people. In reality, I suspect that thoughtless brutality describes a small minority even within the criminal community. But nobody likes to think of criminals as people like themselves.sirshankalot wrote:We? I don't do squat to keep them in poverty. I pay taxes to support all the social programs that are supposed to help "them" out of poverty. Has it worked Haverscam?MarkHaversham wrote:We do an especially good job of keeping them in poverty.
And just because you're poor doesn't mean you're inherently violent.
These are soulless pieces of sh*t who have no respect for life. This city is a fugging wreck right now and there is zero outrage because people are too politically correct to focus their anger at the thug pieces of sh*t who kill at will....what a joke...
We can reduce the amount of desperation.Northside Neighbor wrote:Like ISIS, I don't think there's a whole lot we can do to stop these shootings. Desperate people committing desperate acts. It's like we have our own mini version of ISIS running the streets of St. Louis. And like the politicians in DC debating how to deal with ISIS, there are plenty of local talking heads going on and on about crime in STL, but little changes.
Here's the frustrating reality for police. I think these points are obvious, but I feel like it needs to be included in this conversation.
1) For a multitude of complex reasons, it's a fact that the majority of this city's and this country's violent crime takes place in poor, black neighborhoods.
2) In response to this violence, police focus their efforts on those neighborhoods because they're cops and that's where the crime/threat of crime is.
3) Because the cops focus their efforts on where the crime is, the cops are then often accused of being racist and unjust thugs because a disproportionate amount of their run-ins are with poor, black people.
4) Partly due to point number three, and partly due to a fear of reprisal, when a crime is committed in these neighborhoods many of the innocent bystanders/witnesses refuse to cooperate with police.
5) Because it is difficult for police to get the cooperation necessary to bring offenders to justice, those offenders are often free to continue to terrorize the community with more crimes and the cycle starts all over again.
Is effective policing the sole solution to America's urban crime problem? No. Is it a big part of a complex solution that includes multiple complex components (jobs, education, families)? Yes.
1) For a multitude of complex reasons, it's a fact that the majority of this city's and this country's violent crime takes place in poor, black neighborhoods.
2) In response to this violence, police focus their efforts on those neighborhoods because they're cops and that's where the crime/threat of crime is.
3) Because the cops focus their efforts on where the crime is, the cops are then often accused of being racist and unjust thugs because a disproportionate amount of their run-ins are with poor, black people.
4) Partly due to point number three, and partly due to a fear of reprisal, when a crime is committed in these neighborhoods many of the innocent bystanders/witnesses refuse to cooperate with police.
5) Because it is difficult for police to get the cooperation necessary to bring offenders to justice, those offenders are often free to continue to terrorize the community with more crimes and the cycle starts all over again.
Is effective policing the sole solution to America's urban crime problem? No. Is it a big part of a complex solution that includes multiple complex components (jobs, education, families)? Yes.
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Okay, I'll bite.We can reduce the amount of desperation.
How? Top three ways?
Cops can't prevent crime. Look at Chicago: great police department, horrible murder rate.Is effective policing the sole solution to America's urban crime problem? No. Is it a big part of a complex solution that includes multiple complex components (jobs, education, families)? Yes.
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Northside Neighbor wrote:What do they call it, the "closure rate" or something like that (the rate at which crime cases are solved/closed).
I believe something like 1/2 of the murders in STL go unsolved. So forget about throwing them in jail. Most of them aren't even arrested.
Does Northside Neighbor have any ideas/ suggestions on how to combat violent crime?
Are you working with the police to limit crime in your ward? What are you seeing is effective/ineffective?
I think they call it the "clear rate"Northside Neighbor wrote:What do they call it, the "closure rate" or something like that (the rate at which crime cases are solved/closed).
Too many fireworks last night. Especially of a high caliber.
KMOV - 23 dumpster fires reported overnight in City of St. Louis
http://www.kmov.com/story/32375099/23-d ... -overnight
KMOV - 23 dumpster fires reported overnight in City of St. Louis
http://www.kmov.com/story/32375099/23-d ... -overnight
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Seriously - I think the best way to combat crime is to take steps to avoid being a victim. And most of those are using simple common sense:Does Northside Neighbor have any ideas/ suggestions on how to combat violent crime?
Are you working with the police to limit crime in your ward? What are you seeing is effective/ineffective?
Don't get involved in the drug/prostitution/gambling trades. Avoid walking alone at night. Keep a dog in the house. Walk a dog. Keep valuables out of view. Don't have a gun in the house.
Practice these things and your likelihood of being a victim of violent crime will drop substantially. Any neighborhood, any ward.
On the other hand....
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... 5145c.html
...when you're dealing with hardened criminals like those shown in the video above, I don't think any sort of "program"/social service/etc would make a difference. My hunch is that the victims of this crime violated at least one of the maxims I suggested above.
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I think expecting people to get dogs is a bit much. Many people already have dogs they can't effectively care for due to being out of the house all the time.
Northside, I think your point on the drug/prostitution/gambling hits on the point as well as bringing up a point that I just don't understand after being on west coast a few years. The violent crime in St Louis is brutal and public to the point that to me it is really about people and gangs who know each other settling scores or robbing from each other or trying to control the prostitution market by simply murdering. Simply more effective with high powered weapons. To me, the part I don't understand is that their is a very small group where someone else's life is literally meaningless.
Yes, segregation plays a part. However, at same time, the same business of drugs/prostitution/gambling is prevalent in all major cities such as Oakland. But Oakland has a third of the murders so far in 2016 and a violent crime rate less then St. Louis. Go down the bay and it drops in half again in San Jose. I would say Oakland has its fair share of segregation, homelessness and very tough neighborhoods to pretty well to do hillside neighborhoods.
But I do think St. Louis police really have to think in terms of what Oakland & San Jose is doing if they are not trying already.
http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts ... akland-see
Oakland officials say the downward trend in homicides and violent crime can be attributed to its Ceasefire program, where Oakland police have engaged residents to help identify and arrest people disproportionately responsible for the back-and-forth violence that plagues certain neighborhoods.
"Violent crime isn't down by accident," said Capt. Ersie Joyner, who heads the program. "It's down by design."
With 28 homicides so far in 2016 through June, Oakland is on pace to see its lowest annual total in nearly half a century; homicides have numbered more than 80 since 1968. Since Friday, there have been threemore homicides in the city. Compared with the same point last year, homicides are down 30 percent and shootings have decreased 15 percent.
"I'd almost call it a relentless focus on reducing crime in Oakland," acting Assistant Chief David Downing said. "The one thing I've learned when the crime goes down we are going to take credit for it, absolutely. Because when it goes back up we are going to get that, too."
San Jose police and the city's lauded Mayor's Gang Prevention Task Force have used similarly focused policing to halve the number of gang-motivated killings compared with four years ago.
Yes, segregation plays a part. However, at same time, the same business of drugs/prostitution/gambling is prevalent in all major cities such as Oakland. But Oakland has a third of the murders so far in 2016 and a violent crime rate less then St. Louis. Go down the bay and it drops in half again in San Jose. I would say Oakland has its fair share of segregation, homelessness and very tough neighborhoods to pretty well to do hillside neighborhoods.
But I do think St. Louis police really have to think in terms of what Oakland & San Jose is doing if they are not trying already.
http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts ... akland-see
Oakland officials say the downward trend in homicides and violent crime can be attributed to its Ceasefire program, where Oakland police have engaged residents to help identify and arrest people disproportionately responsible for the back-and-forth violence that plagues certain neighborhoods.
"Violent crime isn't down by accident," said Capt. Ersie Joyner, who heads the program. "It's down by design."
With 28 homicides so far in 2016 through June, Oakland is on pace to see its lowest annual total in nearly half a century; homicides have numbered more than 80 since 1968. Since Friday, there have been threemore homicides in the city. Compared with the same point last year, homicides are down 30 percent and shootings have decreased 15 percent.
"I'd almost call it a relentless focus on reducing crime in Oakland," acting Assistant Chief David Downing said. "The one thing I've learned when the crime goes down we are going to take credit for it, absolutely. Because when it goes back up we are going to get that, too."
San Jose police and the city's lauded Mayor's Gang Prevention Task Force have used similarly focused policing to halve the number of gang-motivated killings compared with four years ago.
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If you can't have a dog, don't get a dog. Do the other stuff: don't make yourself a high percentage crime target.I think expecting people to get dogs is a bit much. Many people already have dogs they can't effectively care for due to being out of the house all the time.
Yes, segregation plays a part. However, at same time, the same business of drugs/prostitution/gambling is prevalent in all major cities such as Oakland. But Oakland has a third of the murders so far in 2016 and a violent crime rate less then St. Louis. Go down the bay and it drops in half again in San Jose. I would say Oakland has its fair share of segregation, homelessness and very tough neighborhoods to pretty well to do hillside neighborhoods.
Off the top of my head, I would bet that STL is maybe 2X as poverty stricken as Oakland and San Jose. Oakland is rapidly gentrifying. Formerly rough areas are being transformed by young affluent people buying homes and changing the demographics of the neighborhoods.
A better comparison would be Richmond, CA v. StL.
1) For a multitude of complex reasons, it's a fact that the majority of this city's and this country's violent crime takes place in poor, black neighborhoods.shimmy wrote:Here's the frustrating reality for police. I think these points are obvious, but I feel like it needs to be included in this conversation.
Most of this country's violent crime does not take place in poor, black neighborhoods. While that might be able to be said about St. Louis City, a DISPROPORTIONATE amount violent crime does take place in poor minority communities - particularly poor and working-class black neighborhoods.A disproportion number does not equate to a "majority" number. While a lot of murders do stack up in black and brown communities - America is a big a country and "violent" crime isn't limited to homicide.
2) In response to this violence, police focus their efforts on those neighborhoods because they're cops and that's where the crime/threat of crime is.
This is a half-truth. One of the reasons Antonio French has been yelling at the top of his lungs for Mayor Slay to do something, is because the city's police department hasn't been doing enough to address crime in high-crime areas. The "hotspotting" in St. Louis hasn't worked. Just as Antonio French has offered......there needs to a COMPREHENSIVE approach and plan to combat crime and violence in St. Louis City.
When downtown and the CWE start having consistent robberies and murders, it only demonstrates, in my opinion, the City of St. Louis has a failed, lackadaisical approach to crime and violence.
3) Because the cops focus their efforts on where the crime is, the cops are then often accused of being racist and unjust thugs because a disproportionate amount of their run-ins are with poor, black people.
Nope. Some cops are accused of being racist because they make unwarranted racist, stereotypical/cynical/offensive comments and racial epithets to black citizens. I know this firsthand - as well as through others' shared experiences with racist, bigot and hateful cops. They are also accused of being thugs because of how MANY of them act when they police black communities. It is a well-known fact that cops police most white neighborhoods differently than they do black neighborhoods - regardless of income level. Cops also shoot and kill UNARMED black people at a DISPROPORTIONATE and alarming rate, which is why they are often labeled as racist/biased thugs. They beat and abuse black citizens - often with impunity - without justification.
Keep in mind too that black and brown people want and need policing where necessary - not an ISIS-like police force adding more terror in the community.
4) Partly due to point number three, and partly due to a fear of reprisal, when a crime is committed in these neighborhoods many of the innocent bystanders/witnesses refuse to cooperate with police.
If people in distressed neighborhoods TRUSTED the police, there would be more people cooperating. Community trust of the police is problematic because of the way cops police distressed communities. The pendulum swings both ways. I would also say people have a right to fear reprisal because usually people know one another. They too must assess the risks vs. rewards - particularly if you have no means to pack up and leave.
5) Because it is difficult for police to get the cooperation necessary to bring offenders to justice, those offenders are often free to continue to terrorize the community with more crimes and the cycle starts all over again.
True. While citizens must play a role in helping to reduce crime, again, the pendulum swings both ways. The police, prosecutors and city must do a better job at prevention, intervention and fair/balanced prosecution.
Is effective policing the sole solution to America's urban crime problem? No. Is it a big part of a complex solution that includes multiple complex components (jobs, education, families)? Yes.
I agree 1000%.
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The stress some of these cops endure in these Iraq-like neighborhoods should never be underestimated. It's a vicious cycle. You have racist cops partially because of what they see everyday; babies/kids getting shot, women getting shot, etc...They act unbecoming of a cop and the black populace hates them and doesn't cooperate. They then lose the motivation to properly police because they feel they are in an untenable situation. What a ***** mess.
Yet we still feel the need to blame cops more than the behavior of thugs. If I were a cop assigned to a sh*tty district, I'd quit too and go give parking and speeding tickets in Webster Groves.
And because of all this cop/thug noise, the liberal doosh-bag judges avoid responsibility as they drive home everyday to their homes near Wash U. Again, a ***** mess.
Yet we still feel the need to blame cops more than the behavior of thugs. If I were a cop assigned to a sh*tty district, I'd quit too and go give parking and speeding tickets in Webster Groves.
And because of all this cop/thug noise, the liberal doosh-bag judges avoid responsibility as they drive home everyday to their homes near Wash U. Again, a ***** mess.
What a asinine comment. A new low from you. Black populace? First, imbecile, you are generalizing.........You really need to shut up because as usual you are embarrassing yourself.sirshankalot wrote:The stress some of these cops endure in these Iraq-like neighborhoods should never be underestimated. It's a vicious cycle. You have racist cops partially because of what they see everyday; babies/kids getting shot, women getting shot, etc...They act unbecoming of a cop and the black populace hates them and doesn't cooperate. They then lose the motivation to properly police because they feel they are in an untenable situation. What a f***ing mess.
Further, no cop is above reproach. Why do so many cops go their whole careers without ever getting a complaint? While others get complaint after complaint after complaint. Those are usually the racist, abusive scumbags who go around abusing their authority.
Excusing racist cop behavior while blaming the people who are the targets of racist cop behavior? Your assertion really demonstrates how socially dysfunctional and ignorant you are.
There's never an excuse for racism - especially from those who TAXPAYERS pay to protect and serve.
Wrong.........people also blame the behavior of criminals who commit violent acts and crime. A criminal's bad behavior does not excuse bad policing and police misconduct. There's no excuse for police abuse. Again, police are not above reproach even while performing their tough duties. They have a job to perform PROFESSIONALLY. That's the expectation. They shouldn't act like wild animals with badges - just because their job is tough.sirshankalot wrote:Yet we still feel the need to blame cops more than the behavior of thugs. If I were a cop assigned to a sh*tty district, I'd quit too and go give parking and speeding tickets in Webster Groves.
And if a person can't handle being an urban cop, then maybe they need to work in Webster Groves - or how about not policing at all. There have been many incidents of police abuse and misconduct CAUGHT ON TAPE - many in St. Louis too - and cops were forced to resign because of their behavior. They lied and betrayed the public's trust.
Cities such as Chicago, Baltimore, Cleveland, Washington D.C., Atlanta etc. etc. have paid out hundreds of millions due to police abuse, misconduct and murder.
Oh, shut up. You are so ignorant. I could "stereotype" you all day long, but I won't. I don't have the time. But you know what you are.sirshankalot wrote:And because of all this cop/thug noise, the liberal doosh-bag judges avoid responsibility as they drive home everyday to their homes near Wash U. Again, a f***ing mess.
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Please don't resort to personal retorts, it's so predictable and boring. It's an absolute mess and you know it. A complete, vicious cycle of crap all-around. When we have the Mayor and the Chief of Police admitting that they are 100 cops short that's all you need to know big boy.
And I love how your blood pressure rises higher towards me than the two thugs who pulled out AR-15's in front of a store on Page and murdered 3 people.
It's laughable where your hatred lies....laughable.
It's laughable where your hatred lies....laughable.
You just over-generalized an entire population of black people. I think that's probably why arch city is mad. You kind of said that its black peoples' fault cops are racist and then its their fault cops lose their motivation to do their job.
There's no perfect solution to stopping crime. IMO, its multi-faceted. It takes more involvement from the neighborhood. Better policing. Cooperation with the courts etc. But over-generalizing and name calling don't better the conversation.
There's no perfect solution to stopping crime. IMO, its multi-faceted. It takes more involvement from the neighborhood. Better policing. Cooperation with the courts etc. But over-generalizing and name calling don't better the conversation.