You know the cameras they have with flashing lights they're putting all over the city? Put a bunch of them on the bridges.urban_dilettante wrote:^ i'm not talking about stopping people randomly, but in the case of a car-jacking, for example, they could watch for the perps/stolen car. combined with cameras/license plate recognition/face recognition technology and retractable bollards on both ends of the bridge it could make for a handy trap.
sirshankalot, now ask your friend why is AMERICA one of the most gun-prone violent developed countries in the world.
Let's be VERY, VERY, VERY careful about passing along generalizations that you happen to convey from your "friend".
Further, St. Louis is a SIGNIFICANT crossroads in the drug trade.
Midwest High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area Drug Market Analysis 2008
Overall, in raw numbers no one group is more prone to violence as there are crazy people in EVERY group.
Let's be VERY, VERY, VERY careful about passing along generalizations that you happen to convey from your "friend".
Further, St. Louis is a SIGNIFICANT crossroads in the drug trade.
Midwest High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area Drug Market Analysis 2008
Overall, in raw numbers no one group is more prone to violence as there are crazy people in EVERY group.
MarkHaversham, I personally tend to waffle on the "Culture of Poverty" issue. Keep in mind too that the COP theory applies to people regardless of race, creed, color, ethnicity or national origin.
For me, I waffle because what causes street violence and mayhem - in St. Louis in particular - are activities that people CHOOSE to associate or participate - not poverty. There are people who are not in poverty - and were never in poverty - yet they chose/choose to participate in the underground drug economy and violence.
If a person chooses to use or sell drugs in the underground drug market, they are at risk for violence - period. It doesn't have anything to do with poverty or race. You can be a BJC doctor or nurse buying drugs in Forest Park Southeast from a low-level dealer and put yourself at risk of harm for violence; or you can be a low-level drug dealer who puts himself at risk of harm from a drug cartel kingpin.
Point is, underground drugs are bad - and the vast majority of homicides in metro St. Louis have to do with illegal drugs and drug trafficking. Keep in mind too that many of the drug slingers and buyers are SUBURBANITES - of all backgrounds - who venture into St. Louis City to do their dirty business and violence.
Nonetheless, for people in poverty who choose to affiliate with the drug trade, they must find a way to understand that there are other options to escape poverty and violence. Choosing the wrong path can lead to deadly consequences.
Yet, I do believe that the COP does have a tendency to trap some people who are totally oblivious to the fact that they are trapped. Poor economies, broken homes, racism, discrimination and red-lining don't necessarily help.
For me, I waffle because what causes street violence and mayhem - in St. Louis in particular - are activities that people CHOOSE to associate or participate - not poverty. There are people who are not in poverty - and were never in poverty - yet they chose/choose to participate in the underground drug economy and violence.
If a person chooses to use or sell drugs in the underground drug market, they are at risk for violence - period. It doesn't have anything to do with poverty or race. You can be a BJC doctor or nurse buying drugs in Forest Park Southeast from a low-level dealer and put yourself at risk of harm for violence; or you can be a low-level drug dealer who puts himself at risk of harm from a drug cartel kingpin.
Point is, underground drugs are bad - and the vast majority of homicides in metro St. Louis have to do with illegal drugs and drug trafficking. Keep in mind too that many of the drug slingers and buyers are SUBURBANITES - of all backgrounds - who venture into St. Louis City to do their dirty business and violence.
Nonetheless, for people in poverty who choose to affiliate with the drug trade, they must find a way to understand that there are other options to escape poverty and violence. Choosing the wrong path can lead to deadly consequences.
Yet, I do believe that the COP does have a tendency to trap some people who are totally oblivious to the fact that they are trapped. Poor economies, broken homes, racism, discrimination and red-lining don't necessarily help.
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St. Louis is also a drug-trafficking cross-roads, which escalates the crime. Lucky for the traffickers we've nurtured a large impoverished black population for them to exploit.
I thought I just wrote that?urban_dilettante wrote:St. Louis is also a drug-trafficking cross-roads, which escalates the crime. Lucky for the traffickers we've nurtured a large impoverished black population for them to exploit.
Also, I don't know if I agree in totality with that statement. St. Louis is a hotbed of heroin and meth.......still. And many of those users and sellers are non-black. While it is true that a disproportionate amount of the violent crime does happen in predominately black neighborhoods with large poverty rates, there is violence in non-black communities involving drugs too.
Until recently, Metro St. Louis had done a poor job of building and restoring its economy, which has nurtured a drug and violence culture that has impacted all law-abiding citizens.
Point is, if you are using and selling drugs......................you are a part of the crime and violence problem facing metro St. Louis regardless of your race, creed or color. I don't want to be robbed or shot by anyone whether they are black, white, yellow, green or gold. I don't want my living room window shot out by anyone - whether they are black, white, yellow, green or gold.
Personally I feel St. Louis City - and County - have to get tougher on the drug trade, guns and gang violence without having the police compromising their and the city's integrity. Good policing doesn't mean beating, shooting and violating people's civil rights.
While I personally believe the current police chief is seemingly "nice", he has glaring weaknesses.
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Widespread poverty isn't caused by culture, it's caused by a lack of opportunity. You can replace "opportunity" with "capital", if you like. Although I'm sure there are some upper-class blue bloods who graduate from Yale and become drug dealers, they are a relative minority.
As an extension, I think police chiefs have a more limited impact than some people believe. If you systematically suppress the legal opportunities for a fifth of your population to improve themselves or live satisfying lives, you're inviting widespread violent crime. All the police cameras and checkpoints in the world aren't going to convince everyone in the ghetto to sit at home and quietly suck on their boiled shoe leather.
As an extension, I think police chiefs have a more limited impact than some people believe. If you systematically suppress the legal opportunities for a fifth of your population to improve themselves or live satisfying lives, you're inviting widespread violent crime. All the police cameras and checkpoints in the world aren't going to convince everyone in the ghetto to sit at home and quietly suck on their boiled shoe leather.
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can you remind me what these do? do they give instant notification of a hot vehicle? (asking for a frienddweebe wrote: You know the cameras they have with flashing lights they're putting all over the city? Put a bunch of them on the bridges.
)Also, it looks like the increasing number of downtown cameras are getting some results... in addition to helping on the Wash Ave homicide case from last month, the guy caught on camera shooting at the pizza delivery driver from OPO was just nabbed.
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yeah, i wrote it at the same time as you. it happens.arch city wrote:I thought I just wrote that?
certainly. i'm just saying that a disadvantaged community is more likely to engage in criminal activity. in rural Missouri that community happens to be disproportionately poor and white. in St. Louis city it happens to be disproportionately poor and black.arch city wrote:And many of those users and sellers are non-black.
nobody's insisting that nothing else be done to alleviate poverty. do you foresee that problem going away any time soon? in the meantime, cameras and checkpoints can't hurt.MarkHaversham wrote:All the police cameras and checkpoints in the world aren't going to convince everyone in the ghetto to sit at home and quietly suck on their boiled shoe leather.
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Thanks Donald Trump.urban_dilettante wrote:MarkHaversham wrote:All the police cameras and checkpoints in the world aren't going to convince everyone in the ghetto to sit at home and quietly suck on their boiled shoe leather.
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I'm not saying we shouldn't have cameras or checkpoints or new police tactics. I'm just saying they you shouldn't expect much.urban_dilettante wrote:nobody's insisting that nothing else be done to alleviate poverty. do you foresee that problem going away any time soon? in the meantime, cameras and checkpoints can't hurt.MarkHaversham wrote:All the police cameras and checkpoints in the world aren't going to convince everyone in the ghetto to sit at home and quietly suck on their boiled shoe leather.
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Can we talk about ISIS? Does anyone else think all the tough talk about ISIS is just a big show? How can you stop someone who wants to kill themselves on a suicide mission? It's an insane death cult. There is no way to "stop" it. They have to change their own psychology.
Sadly, I think instead this is simply the new normal. ISIS inspired suicide attacks will continue and there's practically nothing anyone can do about. Just pray you're not in the wrong place at the wrong time.
All the tough talk on Fox News is just plan b.s. The Bill O'Reillys and Sean Hannitys of the world have no better "plan" to stop ISIS than do the Hillary Clintons or Barack Obamas.
Sadly, I think instead this is simply the new normal. ISIS inspired suicide attacks will continue and there's practically nothing anyone can do about. Just pray you're not in the wrong place at the wrong time.
All the tough talk on Fox News is just plan b.s. The Bill O'Reillys and Sean Hannitys of the world have no better "plan" to stop ISIS than do the Hillary Clintons or Barack Obamas.
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I agree the Fox News trolls sneer about Obama's weakness and then suggest doing all the stuff that Obama is already doing. But terrorism chat is probably stretching the definition of "crime".
Suicide attacks are alarming, but if it makes you feel any better you're about 3x as likely to die from a lightning strike, or 2000x as likely to die in a car accident.
Suicide attacks are alarming, but if it makes you feel any better you're about 3x as likely to die from a lightning strike, or 2000x as likely to die in a car accident.
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And a black man is three times more likely to be struck and killed by lightning than shot dead by the police.MarkHaversham wrote:I agree the Fox News trolls sneer about Obama's weakness and then suggest doing all the stuff that Obama is already doing. But terrorism chat is probably stretching the definition of "crime".
Suicide attacks are alarming, but if it makes you feel any better you're about 3x as likely to die from a lightning strike, or 2000x as likely to die in a car accident.
Actually it's probably 1000 times more likely but at any rate your analogy fails. It's best not to get into a discussion about demographics and crime and who does what and how often. You're not going to be comfortable with the results by any measure.
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I'm sorry, are you suggesting that we should apply the same ethical standards to police officers as we do to lightning, or that we shouldn't apply oversight to our local police departments unless we apply the same standards to Turkish suicide bombers? Are you under the impression that racially biased police action is as uncommon in St. Louis as suicide bombings? Are you ignoring the negative impact of biased policing beyond fatal shootings, or just ignoring the fact that local government officials have a responsibility for police officers' behavior that does not extend to members of ISIS?leeharveyawesome wrote:And a black man is three times more likely to be struck and killed by lightning than shot dead by the police.MarkHaversham wrote:I agree the Fox News trolls sneer about Obama's weakness and then suggest doing all the stuff that Obama is already doing. But terrorism chat is probably stretching the definition of "crime".
Suicide attacks are alarming, but if it makes you feel any better you're about 3x as likely to die from a lightning strike, or 2000x as likely to die in a car accident.
Crime has always flourished within oppressed populations, ranging from blacks in America to the Irish in England, and that fact makes me uncomfortable in many ways. I console myself with the knowledge that many oppressed populations worldwide have won social justice for themselves, and moved beyond the accusations of innate bestiality and flawed culture that become so clearly ridiculous in hindsight.leeharveyawesome wrote:Actually it's probably 1000 times more likely but at any rate your analogy fails. It's best not to get into a discussion about demographics and crime and who does what and how often. You're not going to be comfortable with the results by any measure.
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Well, I for one am serious about the ISIS stuff. How do you stop someone willing to blow themselves up? Think of all the soft targets. A cable car ride in San Francisco. A busy Metrolink stop in St. Louis. A door buster sale the day after Thanksgiving at a shopping mall. The crowded line outside Busch Stadium to see a Cards game.
This sort of thing can happen anywhere people gather. And then the clowns on Fox News or GOP hawks will say the President isn't doing enough or has no plan. It's ridiculous.
This sort of thing can happen anywhere people gather. And then the clowns on Fox News or GOP hawks will say the President isn't doing enough or has no plan. It's ridiculous.
The best way to combat ISIS is to defeat them in the Middle East. ISIS is having limited success (a few people, but look at all the damage those few people have caused) in influencing disgruntled Western muslims because they've been winning in the Middle East and therefore look attractive to losers. The Kurds have had great success in the north against ISIS, but are under-armed and stretched thin, though the Iraqi army has shown a recent strand of competence for a change (re-taking Fallujah). So, hopefully the grandeur of the caliphate will be further eroded as ISIS continues to be defeated on the battlefield.
In the meantime, I really don't know what else the government can do without clear violations of rights. The way I see it, we're still at war. We've been at war for 15 years but the civilian population has been greatly removed and detached from this. In World War II, people were asked to ration sugar, butter, and rubber. Well, today people should be aware that they're targets and should remain vigilant. If that means arming oneself, do it. And, as a conservative, I think it also means not demonizing the entire Islamic faith and thereby creating even more young men who feel disenfranchised and at odds with their nation. George Bush understood this. Republicans used to understand this. But, as we all know, the GOP has lost its collective mind.
Of course, once ISIS is defeated then radical Islam will just morph into the next group. Islam seems to be going through the same sectarian wars that Christianity went through 500 years ago. The modern world just means we're involved too.
In the meantime, I really don't know what else the government can do without clear violations of rights. The way I see it, we're still at war. We've been at war for 15 years but the civilian population has been greatly removed and detached from this. In World War II, people were asked to ration sugar, butter, and rubber. Well, today people should be aware that they're targets and should remain vigilant. If that means arming oneself, do it. And, as a conservative, I think it also means not demonizing the entire Islamic faith and thereby creating even more young men who feel disenfranchised and at odds with their nation. George Bush understood this. Republicans used to understand this. But, as we all know, the GOP has lost its collective mind.
Of course, once ISIS is defeated then radical Islam will just morph into the next group. Islam seems to be going through the same sectarian wars that Christianity went through 500 years ago. The modern world just means we're involved too.
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Okay, so let's say on the 4th of July, somewhere here in the US, some nut Islamic suicide attacker blows himself up and kills 20 or 30 4th of July celebrants? What are we supposed to do? There is no plan because there's no way to prevent something like this. People who say there is are just setting up a straw man to blow over. The worst is Eric Bolling on Fox News. He's basically saying our response to random acts like this should be to flatten cities in the Middle East. The man is insufferable.
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I think the focus on ISIS is a bit simplistic. Has ISIS even perpetrated an attack in the US yet?
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I happened to run across this article from the Springfield, IL, newspaper in 2012, where Forbes Magazine tries to explain why they switched from using metro area data for their Most Dangerous Cities list to using just city limits data. Daniel Fisher, a senior editor at Forbes, mentions St. Louis as an example. As near as I can tell, they changed to city limits because their metro area crime rankings didn't match conventional wisdom when Springfield, IL ranked poorly in a ranking of metros of 200,000 or more, and St. Louis did not. He cites advice from criminologists, but doesn't name them.
http://www.sj-r.com/article/20121024/NEWS/310249926
http://www.sj-r.com/article/20121024/NEWS/310249926
Terrorists have (wisely on their part) evolved tactically to trying to inspire lone wolves to carry out attacks on soft targets from the Al-Qeada grand-attack strategy. Sure, it worked spectacularly once, but has failed every time since then. A focused social media and internet campaign that inspires some POS to shoot up an office party or a dance club serves the same purpose with much less effort and risk of failure. So were the recent attacks planned in Syria? No. Were they ISIS attacks? Yes.MarkHaversham wrote:I think the focus on ISIS is a bit simplistic. Has ISIS even perpetrated an attack in the US yet?
Sent from my HTC Desire 610 using Tapatalk
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Maybe "walkable suburbs" where you live Haverscam isn't the number one target yet but yeah I think ISIS is a problem. Its a desert, prehistoric cult that kills homosexuals and women and non-believers. It is written. They just haven't got to your "walkable suburb" yet.
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If "lone wolf inspired by hate speech" is the criteria, we've suffered more terrorist attacks from the domestic right-wing media circuit than from ISIS. By "more" I mean hundreds of protests and dozens of shootings, bombings and literal occupations of US territory by the former, and approximately zero attacks from the latter.shimmy wrote:Terrorists have (wisely on their part) evolved tactically to trying to inspire lone wolves to carry out attacks on soft targets from the Al-Qeada grand-attack strategy. Sure, it worked spectacularly once, but has failed every time since then. A focused social media and internet campaign that inspires some POS to shoot up an office party or a dance club serves the same purpose with much less effort and risk of failure. So were the recent attacks planned in Syria? No. Were they ISIS attacks? Yes.MarkHaversham wrote:I think the focus on ISIS is a bit simplistic. Has ISIS even perpetrated an attack in the US yet?
"Grrr walkable suburbs!leeharveyawesome wrote:Maybe "walkable suburbs" where you live Haverscam isn't the number one target yet but yeah I think ISIS is a problem. Its a desert, prehistoric cult that kills homosexuals and women and non-believers. It is written. They just haven't got to your "walkable suburb" yet.
"While your point has some truth in it, it is largely a false equivalency. The bombings of abortion clinics, for example, are perpetuated by far-right wing domestic terrorists. However, I think linking such attacks to the "domestic right-wing media circuit" is absurd. It's the same logic that leads Anderson Cooper, who I believe to be the best reporter on TV today, to lash out at Florida's AG for showing compassion after Orlando to the LGBT community after previously opposing same sex marriage. For some reason it's completely lost on people today that you can passionately disagree with someone on an issue while at the same time not wanting them to be murdered.MarkHaversham wrote: If "lone wolf inspired by hate speech" is the criteria, we've suffered more terrorist attacks from the domestic right-wing media circuit than from ISIS. By "more" I mean hundreds of protests and dozens of shootings, bombings and literal occupations of US territory by the former, and approximately zero attacks from the latter.
When Rush Limbaugh explicitly advocates for the execution of abortion providers, and then a right-wing terrorist pledges allegiance to Rush while carrying out an attack and points to him as his inspiration, then I'd be more inclined to agree with you. Until then, blaming the "domestic right-wing media circuit" for such attacks is the equivalent of me blaming Chris Hayes and MSNBC the next time a cop is murdered.
Furthermore, I find your addition of "protests" in your list of domestic terrorist attacks that goes on to include shootings, bombings, and occupations to be both odd and disturbing as it implies the danger of and aversion to a peaceful, Constitutionally protected right that simply disagrees with your position and then links it to acts of violence.
And lastly, I fear the Crime Thread has been hijacked by political discussion. So, if the mods would care to move this conversation so that posts more relevant to the topic, such as Gary's link to a discussion on statistical studies, can receive more attention, I would be in favor.