Crime Thread

stlhistory · PostJul 14, 2014#33762014-07-14T05:01+00:00

^James O'Keefe and his hit-job group called Project Veritas already offered that with journalists:
http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/watch-journa ... ree-signs/

Just wondering, is it somehow hypocritical to not put such a sign up? Hypocrisy is one claiming to have a moral standard to which one's own behavior does not conform. It would be hypocritical of me to say I don't support widespread handgun ownership and yet own several handguns for my own protection. If it's not hypocritical, how is it morally wrong to not put your sign up?

Perhaps you would say I'm a free rider, so let's examine what that is: it refers to a situation where some individuals in a population either consume more than their fair share of a common resource, or pay less than their fair share of the cost of a common resource. In either case, free riders degrade the value of the common resource to the point that people aren't willing to shoulder the burden of continuing it. In the case of gun ownership, if I believe people should not own guns and I am a free rider, I am shifting the burden onto the gun owners. Eventually, more people will engage in free riding until there comes a point where nobody is willing to be a gun owner and we lose the common resource. At that point, I have achieved my goal of reducing or eliminating gun ownership. Basically, by being a free rider, I am contributing to my cause of reducing gun ownership. If I put up your sign, then I reduce my free rider effect and harm my cause.

quincunx · PostJul 14, 2014#33772014-07-14T13:24+00:00

This stinks. Close a business, loose a building.

KSDK - Venice Cafe robbed, owners tired of vacant building

ST. LOUIS - The owner of a south St. Louis bar fears he'll have to close down if people keep using the vacant building next door to rob his business.

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/crime/20 ... /12611091/

DogtownBnR · PostJul 14, 2014#33782014-07-14T14:04+00:00

Who owns this vacant building?

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.599472, ... e0!6m1!1e1

It is an odd, but cool little building, connected to the side of VC. Either the owner of VC should buy it and rehab it, demo it (hopefully not) or the City should hold the owners accountable. It would be a shame for such a great place to go under, due to this issue.

rbb · PostJul 14, 2014#33792014-07-14T14:22+00:00

2865 Lemp Avenue, correct?

-RBB

DogtownBnR · PostJul 14, 2014#33802014-07-14T14:29+00:00

^Correct... thanks for the info...

stlhistory · PostJul 14, 2014#33812014-07-14T15:06+00:00

After doing some digging, it seems unlikely that VC could buy the lots. Property sales mention $85,000 changing hands in 2010, which is big money for a vacant and boarded house and a side yard. Taxes haven't been paid on the house or side yard lot since 2011. I would be concerned that demo would harm the VC building since they share a party wall. The problem of problem properties strikes again. City government needs to figure out a way to crack down on this.

rbb · PostJul 14, 2014#33822014-07-14T15:48+00:00

stlhistory wrote:After doing some digging, it seems unlikely that VC could buy the lots. Property sales mention $85,000 changing hands in 2010, which is big money for a vacant and boarded house and a side yard. Taxes haven't been paid on the house or side yard lot since 2011. I would be concerned that demo would harm the VC building since they share a party wall. The problem of problem properties strikes again. City government needs to figure out a way to crack down on this.

With two B&E's in the past twelve months, this would fall under the city's Nuisance Property Ordinance, no? It's something, anyway...

-RBB

stlhistory · PostJul 14, 2014#33832014-07-14T22:28+00:00

No, the ordinance wouldn't apply because the building is already vacant. The ordinance only applies to occupied residential or commercial properties, and then the threat is to close the property and make it vacant.

roger wyoming II · PostJul 31, 2014#33842014-07-31T15:46+00:00

Terrible incident in Wells-Goodfellow yesterday:

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... 6b454.html

arch city · PostJul 31, 2014#33852014-07-31T16:04+00:00

Obviously, there's a (gang) war zone over in Goodfellow-Wells.

Lots of senseless homicides, plus it borders suburban Pine Lawn and Hillsdale, which have good people, but a lot of crime and poverty.

It's time for police to "hots pot" the area again.

TheNewSaintLouis · PostJul 31, 2014#33862014-07-31T18:12+00:00

There has to be other methods than hot spot policing cause it hasn't gotten anything done.
There's been at least 1-2 even more homicides a night/day.
The great evil sins are hovering over STL.
Just a reminder this is what happens to people who don't have a direction in life or don't allow themselves to be around good natured positive people they basically get caught up with the wrong people who don't give a rats about them.
So drugs sex money etc becomes their way of life.

stlhistory · PostJul 31, 2014#33872014-07-31T22:52+00:00

TheNewSaintLouis wrote:There has to be other methods than hot spot policing cause it hasn't gotten anything done.
There's been at least 1-2 even more homicides a night/day.
The great evil sins are hovering over STL.
Just a reminder this is what happens to people who don't have a direction in life or don't allow themselves to be around good natured positive people they basically get caught up with the wrong people who don't give a rats about them.
So drugs sex money etc becomes their way of life.

Your statement that hot spot policing isn't effective is simply wrong. In neighborhoods with hot spot policing, there have been significant declines. Homicides are difficult to prevent, and hot spot policing isn't as effective at dealing with homicides as it is with other types of crime; however, overall crime is down dramatically from last year (11%). Another factor in play is redistricting, which has freed up officers to focus on more difficult parts of the city.

To your second point, there have been about one homicide every three to four days in St. Louis, not one or two every day. If your statistic were accurate, we would have more than 200 homicides already for 2014.

This reminds me of how in other threads, it's often been said that St. Louisans are their own worst enemy at perception problems.

downtown2007 · PostAug 01, 2014#33882014-08-01T00:15+00:00

stlhistory wrote:
TheNewSaintLouis wrote:There has to be other methods than hot spot policing cause it hasn't gotten anything done.
There's been at least 1-2 even more homicides a night/day.
The great evil sins are hovering over STL.
Just a reminder this is what happens to people who don't have a direction in life or don't allow themselves to be around good natured positive people they basically get caught up with the wrong people who don't give a rats about them.
So drugs sex money etc becomes their way of life.
Your statement that hot spot policing isn't effective is simply wrong. In neighborhoods with hot spot policing, there have been significant declines. Homicides are difficult to prevent, and hot spot policing isn't as effective at dealing with homicides as it is with other types of crime; however, overall crime is down dramatically from last year (11%). Another factor in play is redistricting, which has freed up officers to focus on more difficult parts of the city.

To your second point, there have been about one homicide every three to four days in St. Louis, not one or two every day. If your statistic were accurate, we would have more than 200 homicides already for 2014.

This reminds me of how in other threads, it's often been said that St. Louisans are their own worst enemy at perception problems.

I am not disputing the fact that Hot Spot policing doesn't work. However I do question whether it has long term impacts on a neighborhood. I view it more as a short term band aid. The problems are still there but are tamed during the hot spot. Once the hot spot ends it's business as usual for these idiots.

What does everyone else think?

stlhistory · PostAug 01, 2014#33892014-08-01T04:18+00:00

Good point that it's a band aid if it's the sole intervention, which is why SLMPD has tried to get places to use the NOM. Dutchtown was an early adopter of the Neighborhood Ownership Model and it produced decent results; unfortunately SLMPD don't get a lot of involvement from residents in some places. Not blaming victims, but more saying it's hard to get renters and people who work non-traditional schedules to attend community meetings, commit to neighborhood patrols, etc. There's also the issue of trust in the police, which is a hurdle for some communities that have been burned by police and the justice system before.

roger wyoming II · PostAug 01, 2014#33902014-08-01T23:08+00:00

stlhistory wrote: This reminds me of how in other threads, it's often been said that St. Louisans are their own worst enemy at perception problems.

Perhaps, but it is not a false impression that Saint Louis City has a homicide and gun violence crisis.

TheNewSaintLouis · PostAug 02, 2014#33912014-08-02T07:49+00:00

stlhistory wrote:Good point that it's a band aid if it's the sole intervention, which is why SLMPD has tried to get places to use the NOM. Dutchtown was an early adopter of the Neighborhood Ownership Model and it produced decent results; unfortunately SLMPD don't get a lot of involvement from residents in some places. Not blaming victims, but more saying it's hard to get renters and people who work non-traditional schedules to attend community meetings, commit to neighborhood patrols, etc. There's also the issue of trust in the police, which is a hurdle for some communities that have been burned by police and the justice system before.

I was born & raised here & i want this place to flourish with all it's mighty however the fact of the matter is we'll still be ranked in the top 5 for murder capitol USA & that does have long lasting perceptions not only through locals but from around the world so you can believe whatever you want to believe about crime being down.
I drive on tucker the moment i leave work & at least everyday or other day in July I've seen fox 2 kmov 4 ksdk 5 in front of the police HQ so i know whats happening. I don't have to turn on the news to know someone's been shot or killed or like the innocent grandmother being killed. Regardless these people have no respect for no one & not even themselves...
I don't even want to know where we stand at in homicides cause we'll hit the century mark again regardless. The gun violence is out of control however you can say its out of control in this country alone but we all have our opinion..

threeonefour · PostAug 02, 2014#33922014-08-02T17:21+00:00

downtown2007 wrote:I am not disputing the fact that Hot Spot policing doesn't work. However I do question whether it has long term impacts on a neighborhood. I view it more as a short term band aid. The problems are still there but are tamed during the hot spot. Once the hot spot ends it's business as usual for these idiots.

What does everyone else think?

I agree. To me, it's like a neverending game of Whac-A-Mole. Snuff the crime out in one area, then it increases in another nearby area, then it's back to where it started, over and over again.

I believe in St. Louis, however, I also believe the root causes of violent crime here are so deep-seated that I don't envision a future in which we make anything more than incremental progress or see anything beyond temporary improvements here and there. Poverty, segregation, an anti-snitching mentality, and a justice system that far too often works as a revolving door really complicate efforts to reduce crime significantly. It's almost like all we can do is to contain it, although that doesn't work so well either as I have seen south St. Louis become more and more crime-ridden in the ten years I've lived here. Southwest City is very stable, but it wasn't that long ago when that could be said for all of south St. Louis.

I believe the police are doing all they can with the resources they have, but I don't know if we'll ever have enough resources. Also, the mayor seems more concerned about perception than crime itself in my opinion.

Redbrickcity · PostAug 03, 2014#33932014-08-03T05:25+00:00

MY gfs dad was a city cop from 1976 to 2009 and he tells us stores of all the crime that use to be in Downtown, Midtown, Shaw, Mcree town. Tower grove and Soulard. When he left the force is said the city was getting a lot safer and also a lot of the crime in south city is not new but started moved to dutch town and when a lot neighborhoods I said above gentrified more.

and here is some news on crime
http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/dot ... ng-working

downtown2007 · PostAug 03, 2014#33942014-08-03T16:37+00:00

Redbrickcity wrote:MY gfs dad was a city cop from 1976 to 2009 and he tells us stores of all the crime that use to be in Downtown, Midtown, Shaw, Mcree town. Tower grove and Soulard. When he left the force is said the city was getting a lot safer and also a lot of the crime in south city is not new but started moved to dutch town and when a lot neighborhoods I said above gentrified more.

and here is some news on crime
http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/dot ... ng-working

I think this is a very accurate description. I always tell people places like Dutchtown and Marine Villa have declined because other areas has prospered.

Ebsy · PostAug 03, 2014#33952014-08-03T21:24+00:00

downtown2007 wrote:
Redbrickcity wrote:MY gfs dad was a city cop from 1976 to 2009 and he tells us stores of all the crime that use to be in Downtown, Midtown, Shaw, Mcree town. Tower grove and Soulard. When he left the force is said the city was getting a lot safer and also a lot of the crime in south city is not new but started moved to dutch town and when a lot neighborhoods I said above gentrified more.

and here is some news on crime
http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/dot ... ng-working
I think this is a very accurate description. I always tell people places like Dutchtown and Marine Villa have declined because other areas has prospered.

I don't think Dutchtown is going to decline much further. Things seem to be stabilizing, at least around Meramac.

dbInSouthCity · PostAug 04, 2014#33962014-08-04T00:37+00:00

I don't see it stabilizing.... The area around Meramec and spring is not good at all. Between Meramec and Chippewa and grand and gravois on the west is not good at all. It use to be 5 years ago.

stlhistory · PostAug 04, 2014#33972014-08-04T01:59+00:00

The area bounded by Meramec, Chippewa, Grand and Gravois is Dutchtown. Let's have some data to look at to see if crime in Dutchtown is really that much worse. For reference, here's the crime statistics since 2008 for YTD January to June:

2008 - Person crime / rate - 184 / 1181; Property crime / rate - 545 / 3500 - Est. Pop. of 15580
2009 - Person crime / rate - 159 / 1032; Property crime / rate - 555 / 3600 - Est. Pop. of 15400
2010 - Person crime / rate - 141 / 926 ; Property crime / rate - 596 / 3915 - Population of 15,220
2011 - Person crime / rate - 133 / 886; Property crime / rate - 622 / 4140 - Est. Pop. 15020
2012 - Person crime / rate - 182 / 1226; Property crime / rate - 410 / 2760 - Est. Pop. 14840
2013 - Person crime / rate - 165 / 1125; Property crime / rate - 444 / 3030 - Est. Pop. 14660
2014 - Person crime / rate - 142 / 980; Property crime / rate - 418 / 2890 - Est. Pop. 14490

I estimated the populations using the 2000 to 2010 Census change figures.

I see person crime decreasing (as it did in the rest of the city) for the first few years, then a surge and a return to declining rates after 2012. I also see an uptick of property crime and then a steep decline starting in 2012. Dutchtown implemented the Neighborhood Ownership Model and was a focus of Hotspot Policing tactics that year and in subsequent years. As I said earlier, Hotspot doesn't work as well on preventing violence but it does work to reduce property crime.

dbInSouthCity · PostAug 04, 2014#33982014-08-04T13:27+00:00

Part I was trying to refer to is between Gustine, Chippewa, Meramec and Northern portion of south grand. Really even a few blocks east of that part of grand is bad

dweebe · PostAug 04, 2014#33992014-08-04T16:20+00:00

Ebsy wrote:
downtown2007 wrote:
Redbrickcity wrote:MY gfs dad was a city cop from 1976 to 2009 and he tells us stores of all the crime that use to be in Downtown, Midtown, Shaw, Mcree town. Tower grove and Soulard. When he left the force is said the city was getting a lot safer and also a lot of the crime in south city is not new but started moved to dutch town and when a lot neighborhoods I said above gentrified more.

and here is some news on crime
http://news.stlpublicradio.org/post/dot ... ng-working
I think this is a very accurate description. I always tell people places like Dutchtown and Marine Villa have declined because other areas has prospered.
I don't think Dutchtown is going to decline much further. Things seem to be stabilizing, at least around Meramac.

Tearing down those sh*tty apartments behind St. Mary's helped stabilize the south end of Dutchtown somewhat.

But I agree that wedge between Meramec and Chippewa seems to be getting worse and worse. I'm no delicate little flower: but I'm not setting foot in that area. I have friends that little right by that part of Ducthtown and I'm always careful about how I get to their houses.

downtown2007 · PostAug 04, 2014#34002014-08-04T17:46+00:00

I go to Ted Drews there all the time.

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