I don't think ignoring distressed regions until they become so desperate and then proposing leveling the areas for parks or development should be our long term plan for dealing with urban poverty.downtown2007 wrote:Where do the 20k people go?TheNewSaintLouis wrote:Are these Illinois temp plates the same as temp plates in Missouri?
Crime from E.St.Louis has been going on for as long as both have existed.
Let's face it E.St.Louis is a bombed out eyesore practically for all people to see theres no reason for its future existence.
I say plow it down & give it back to mother earth she knows whats best for the land & whats left of it shouldn't even be there. Make it a extension of Cahokia Mounds which may become a National Park.
While I don't think that this needs to be done, what is clear is that the Illinois and the Federal government have been criminally negligent with East St. Louis for at least a half century. I am well traveled and I have seen jungle villages in Asia and Central America with less crime and more hope than that town.TheNewSaintLouis wrote:Are these Illinois temp plates the same as temp plates in Missouri?
Crime from E.St.Louis has been going on for as long as both have existed.
Let's face it E.St.Louis is a bombed out eyesore practically for all people to see theres no reason for its future existence.
I say plow it down & give it back to mother earth she knows whats best for the land & whats left of it shouldn't even be there. Make it a extension of Cahokia Mounds which may become a National Park.
The metro east is just as, if not more in need of a major shot in the arm. They badly need a properly done Northside Regeneration equivalent and another major college.
Probably the best thing for the metro region in general is somehow annex parts of the east shore and east st louis from Illinois. If they won't take care of it, then we will. Sure it'll drag down our crime stats for a generation, but in the long term, it'll allow for urban planning on both sides of the river so we can become a more organized and beautiful city in the likes of those in Europe or Asia.
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What i mentioned i didn't mean in a disrespectful way cause i believe every person should have a good chance of quality of life. Those are not being met in E.St.Louis.
Right now it's almost as bad as a 3rd world country.
You see how the Spivey Building looks with no windows trees growing all over it!
Why should residents there continue to have too suffer with the agony of corruption in the hands of the state & city you call home.
The biggest reasoning as stated is the state of Illinois. It's sad when your own governor isn't staying at the state capitol.
S.Illinois almost seems like it doesn't exist.
I'm very proud of what the Metro East is cause it's apart of Saint.Louis. Could it be better of course however that won't happen until folks of the Metro East desire to take matters into their own hands & begin to build & strengthen its side of the economy.
E.St.Louis is a victim of abandonment as the same for Saint.Louis City & many other cities around the country.
To answer your question where would they go.
Disperse them throughout the city of Saint.Louis.
Right now it's almost as bad as a 3rd world country.
You see how the Spivey Building looks with no windows trees growing all over it!
Why should residents there continue to have too suffer with the agony of corruption in the hands of the state & city you call home.
The biggest reasoning as stated is the state of Illinois. It's sad when your own governor isn't staying at the state capitol.
S.Illinois almost seems like it doesn't exist.
I'm very proud of what the Metro East is cause it's apart of Saint.Louis. Could it be better of course however that won't happen until folks of the Metro East desire to take matters into their own hands & begin to build & strengthen its side of the economy.
E.St.Louis is a victim of abandonment as the same for Saint.Louis City & many other cities around the country.
To answer your question where would they go.
Disperse them throughout the city of Saint.Louis.
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I'm actually getting tired of the STLPD being reactive. Every time something happens in high - profile places or places that have multiple or high - profile murders, they say they will 'hot-spot' police that area. If the practice is working in those areas, it needs to be a permanent practice, which means they need to hire more officers. Once a high-profile crime is committed and hot-spot policing is announced, do we all really think the thugs will be dumb enough to return to that area right away. They'll wait till the next area is on the STLPD's radar. Until then they'll just rob and pillage other areas. I'd be all for doing whatever it takes to add more officers to hot spot police everywhere necessary, everyday. The crime and poor image that comes with crime, is damaging our City in ways that far exceed the cost of more cops on the streets.
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Metro East has a lot of great communities and I'm not so sure we can blame the State of Illinois or Feds when we have our fair share of the same problem in the Metro West. You could go from Wellston to Washington Park and have a roughly similar take on what happens when plentiful, good-paying jobs disappear and years of disinvestment in certain neighborhoods set in.
The problem may be a bit more acute in East Saint Louis and adjacent inner-core communities as they were particularly reliant on industrial might and lacked a more diverse corporate climate that was centered across the river but the fundamentals are the same.... even the existence of too many individual communities is shared.
The problem may be a bit more acute in East Saint Louis and adjacent inner-core communities as they were particularly reliant on industrial might and lacked a more diverse corporate climate that was centered across the river but the fundamentals are the same.... even the existence of too many individual communities is shared.
Basically you're espousing the Charlie Brennan of KMOX theory of taxation... why are we always being asked to support sports teams, Arch grounds, and transportation with extra taxes when instead we could be funding more police and schools?DogtownBnR wrote:I'm actually getting tired of the STLPD being reactive. Every time something happens in high - profile places or places that have multiple or high - profile murders, they say they will 'hot-spot' police that area. If the practice is working in those areas, it needs to be a permanent practice, which means they need to hire more officers. Once a high-profile crime is committed and hot-spot policing is announced, do we all really think the thugs will be dumb enough to return to that area right away. They'll wait till the next area is on the STLPD's radar. Until then they'll just rob and pillage other areas. I'd be all for doing whatever it takes to add more officers to hot spot police everywhere necessary, everyday. The crime and poor image that comes with crime, is damaging our City in ways that far exceed the cost of more cops on the streets.
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So you want to disperse a population of 20k living in poverty to STL, a city with also a large poverty rate compared to other major cities? Wouldn't be good for STL or the residents.TheNewSaintLouis wrote:What i mentioned i didn't mean in a disrespectful way cause i believe every person should have a good chance of quality of life. Those are not being met in E.St.Louis.
Right now it's almost as bad as a 3rd world country.
You see how the Spivey Building looks with no windows trees growing all over it!
Why should residents there continue to have too suffer with the agony of corruption in the hands of the state & city you call home.
The biggest reasoning as stated is the state of Illinois. It's sad when your own governor isn't staying at the state capitol.
S.Illinois almost seems like it doesn't exist.
I'm very proud of what the Metro East is cause it's apart of Saint.Louis. Could it be better of course however that won't happen until folks of the Metro East desire to take matters into their own hands & begin to build & strengthen its side of the economy.
E.St.Louis is a victim of abandonment as the same for Saint.Louis City & many other cities around the country.
To answer your question where would they go.
Disperse them throughout the city of Saint.Louis.
Ideally you would want to disperse them through the entire metro area. However convincing other municipalities would be impossible.
ESTL also has the problem of sewage running through the streets. There's also heavy chemical polution from Monsanto and Pfizer. I honestly don't now what to doabout ESTL, but I do know no one has given a sh*t about them for about half a century, and someone is to blame, primarily the state of Illinois.
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Monsanto does not have operations in East St. Louis. Pfizer? Where exactly are they doing business in East St. Louis?Ebsy wrote:ESTL also has the problem of sewage running through the streets. There's also heavy chemical polution from Monsanto and Pfizer. I honestly don't now what to doabout ESTL, but I do know no one has given a sh*t about them for about half a century, and someone is to blame, primarily the state of Illinois.
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So what exactly is Illinois supposed to do that say, Missouri shouldn't be doing for North Saint Louis or Wellston?Ebsy wrote: I honestly don't now what to doabout ESTL, but I do know no one has given a sh*t about them for about half a century, and someone is to blame, primarily the state of Illinois.
http://www.umich.edu/~snre492/Jones/stlouis.htm
I believe this pretty clearly outlines where the ridiculously high levels of toxins in East St. Louis came from.
I believe this pretty clearly outlines where the ridiculously high levels of toxins in East St. Louis came from.
Missouri should be doing much, much more for depressed areas. Absolving yourself of blame by pointing out that others are just as guilty is not how things should work.roger wyoming II wrote:So what exactly is Illinois supposed to do that say, Missouri shouldn't be doing for North Saint Louis or Wellston?Ebsy wrote: I honestly don't now what to doabout ESTL, but I do know no one has given a sh*t about them for about half a century, and someone is to blame, primarily the state of Illinois.
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^ this is the point i was about to make. if MO is not doing enough for N. STL that doesn't absolve IL from its responsibility toward E. STL. while MO can and should be doing more for STL, there's not much it can do for E. STL as it's not in MO's jurisdiction. part of me thinks that IL is fine with the way things are in our metro east because 1) it presents a hurdle for STL's economic growth that prevents competition for Chicago and 2) neglecting S. IL allows them to funnel more money to Chicago.
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Poverty is found anywhere on the globe including in some of finest suburbs that's a proven. You have what is called people trying to keep up with the jones living well beyond their means just to impress. I personally think dispersing the residents of E St.Louis anywhere in Saint.Louis would be a hell of a lot better than what lies there now which is a big bunch of nothing. Yes Saint.Louis has problems tell me what city in this country doesn't have a problem? some may have way more crime or way less of crime than others but what you see on the other side of the river is a downtrodden. I would not lie to anyone & say i love driving east on heading through E.St.Louis cause it's an embarrassment not only to Saint.Louis but to our country & we're suppose to be one of the desired countries to live in but we can't even cater to our own citizens let alone immigrants get way more leeway than our own citizens.
Further more I don't see Obama trying to bring jobs to E.St.Louis & he was a Illinois resident/politician.
I'm tired of seeing E.St.Louis the way its been my entire lifetime & i much rather see the land returned back to its natural wonder than reading or hearing about the same circus clowns happening there over & over again.
Further more I don't see Obama trying to bring jobs to E.St.Louis & he was a Illinois resident/politician.
I'm tired of seeing E.St.Louis the way its been my entire lifetime & i much rather see the land returned back to its natural wonder than reading or hearing about the same circus clowns happening there over & over again.
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I agree that states should do more, but why does the majority of blame fall on the state government? The blame for the plight of cities like Detroit, Camden, Cleveland, East Cleveland, Gary, Bridgeport, Oakland, etc. etc. etc. primarily falls on their respective states? Just curious at what point states should be obligated to do certain things, whatever those certain things are.Ebsy wrote:Missouri should be doing much, much more for depressed areas. Absolving yourself of blame by pointing out that others are just as guilty is not how things should work.roger wyoming II wrote:So what exactly is Illinois supposed to do that say, Missouri shouldn't be doing for North Saint Louis or Wellston?Ebsy wrote: I honestly don't now what to doabout ESTL, but I do know no one has given a sh*t about them for about half a century, and someone is to blame, primarily the state of Illinois.
Take Detroit for example, which is now under state receivership because of its bankruptcy and serves as a great case study.... is it's plight mainly due to state government failure? What should the state have been obligated to do to not let things get to such a low point? At what points should certain state actions have been triggered? I think it is a fascinating issue, but I'm just not convinced that states carry the burden of being the main parties of "blame."
Well, specific to East St. Louis, laws in Illinois allowed companies like Monsanto and Pfizer, as well and Cerro Copper to found their own little towns to avoid property taxes that would have been used to fund schools and police departments. These companies then proceeded to pollute East St. Louis with little consequence for years, and to this day, the soil is tainted and the children are sick.
I could go into a detailed explanation of the history of East St. Louis and how business interests, in collusion with state government, busted unions and then abandoned the community they ruined by inciting racial violence and pollution to suffer. Has Illinois been negligent? Yes. Did it have a large role in creating the current problem? Absolutely.
I could go into a detailed explanation of the history of East St. Louis and how business interests, in collusion with state government, busted unions and then abandoned the community they ruined by inciting racial violence and pollution to suffer. Has Illinois been negligent? Yes. Did it have a large role in creating the current problem? Absolutely.
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^ I'm unconvinced... East Saint Louis was a quite stable city long after places like Sauget were created and the establishment nationally of company towns were common in its era. It was the collapse of industry and jobs beginning in the late 50's and accelerating into the 60's and 70's that was the primary undoing of East Saint Louis. Just as it was in similar cities across the land.
Sauget was created primarily to dodge regulation and property taxes in East St. Louis. The fact that this practice of founding corporate towns was widespread does not in any way mitigate it's devastating effects on East St. Louis. State law should not have permitted companies to found their own towns in order to dodge responsibility.
Also, you are conviniently ignoring the practices implemented by industry in East St. Louis, namely the use of black migrants to break up unions, causing the mass flight of white residents from East St. Louis.
East St. Louis has been pretty much in a free fall since the 1950s, and the companies packed up and abandoned the black workers they had brought there while companies like Monsanto and Pfizer corrupted the soil, air and water. There was no conspiracy to destroy East St. Louis. But it was destroyed nontheless, and those companies are still there, poisoning the people left in East St. Louis. It may be the same story as Camden New Jersey or Detroit, but it is just as damning as well.
Also, you are conviniently ignoring the practices implemented by industry in East St. Louis, namely the use of black migrants to break up unions, causing the mass flight of white residents from East St. Louis.
East St. Louis has been pretty much in a free fall since the 1950s, and the companies packed up and abandoned the black workers they had brought there while companies like Monsanto and Pfizer corrupted the soil, air and water. There was no conspiracy to destroy East St. Louis. But it was destroyed nontheless, and those companies are still there, poisoning the people left in East St. Louis. It may be the same story as Camden New Jersey or Detroit, but it is just as damning as well.
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lack of industrial regulation aside, i was primarily condemning IL for its present-day disinterest in E. STL's rampant lawlessness.
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^^ My question remains though how the state is to be held primarily responsible for this. Saying that the state holds this responsibility because it allowed Monsanto to incorporate Sauget in the 1920's and looked the other way on pre-war union busting is not much different than saying the fault for our own city's descent can be placed upon the city leaders who pushed for a break from Saint Louis County in the 1880s. Anyway, I think we're straying a ways from the crime thread... maybe any continued discussion could be moved to an East Saint Louis thread.
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The ESL crime issue would seem to affect Downtown and Downtown West pretty directly, and I think it's helpful to look at comparisons year-to-year.
YTD compared to last year, personal crime (homicide, rape, robbery, assault) is up 2% in Downtown, mostly from half a dozen more street muggings (no weapon brandished) than last year. In Downtown West, personal crime is down 12%, mostly from a decrease in assaults by a dozen or so. Property crime is down in Downtown by 13%, mostly from decreases in motor vehicle break-ins and motor vehicle thefts. Downtown West property crime is down 8%, mostly from major decreases in motor vehicle break-ins, but unfortunately there has been a major increase in motor vehicle thefts (about 20 more cars).
Overall for the city of St. Louis, crime as of May 31 is down 12% from May 31, 2013 (14% decline in property crime, 5% decline in personal crime). For a long-term look, It's down 35.7% from May 31, 2009.
YTD compared to last year, personal crime (homicide, rape, robbery, assault) is up 2% in Downtown, mostly from half a dozen more street muggings (no weapon brandished) than last year. In Downtown West, personal crime is down 12%, mostly from a decrease in assaults by a dozen or so. Property crime is down in Downtown by 13%, mostly from decreases in motor vehicle break-ins and motor vehicle thefts. Downtown West property crime is down 8%, mostly from major decreases in motor vehicle break-ins, but unfortunately there has been a major increase in motor vehicle thefts (about 20 more cars).
Overall for the city of St. Louis, crime as of May 31 is down 12% from May 31, 2013 (14% decline in property crime, 5% decline in personal crime). For a long-term look, It's down 35.7% from May 31, 2009.
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I hate to be the bringer of Bad news, but...
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 2354b.html
However after searching though the internet, for a good while it also seems that ever major city from Chicago Indianapolis, Houston, and even Minneapolis had violent 4th of July weekends. does anyone have any idea why that is?
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 2354b.html
However after searching though the internet, for a good while it also seems that ever major city from Chicago Indianapolis, Houston, and even Minneapolis had violent 4th of July weekends. does anyone have any idea why that is?
Alcohol.i,Iive,to,draw wrote:I hate to be the bringer of Bad news, but...
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metr ... 2354b.html
However after searching though the internet, for a good while it also seems that ever major city from Chicago Indianapolis, Houston, and even Minneapolis had violent 4th of July weekends. does anyone have any idea why that is?