urbanSTL

I think those will look better once the whole lid project is done and all elements around it are complete.

I don't know. The idea of creating covered walkways is so 1970s. People are walking to the Arch, a towering monument, so we usher them to the site by sending them through an above ground tunnel? The canopies literally block views and limit photo opportunities.

And today I noticed they are installing some pretty huge side walls to the main lid/"Park Over the Highway". They look to be maybe 8+ feet high? Those will sort of do the same thing. Will those side walls block views of the Old Cathedral from the Lid?

We are building visual corridors rather than opening up vistas.

Northside Neighbor wrote:Has anyone seen the pedestrian canopies being installed on the Walnut Street and Pine Street bridges? They look ridiculous.

yep, very poorly designed. if blocking the view of the highway (for the five seconds that it takes to cross the bridge) is the intended effect, the same thing could have been achieved with walls that slant out over the highway and no top, thus leaving the view of the arch unobstructed.

If they wanted us to forget there was a highway there, then they should've filled it in and built the blvd.

stlien wrote:If they wanted us to forget there was a highway there, then they should've filled it in and built the blvd.

Right. And now we are looking at three summers of construction. How long did it take to build the Arch?

stlien wrote:If they wanted us to forget there was a highway there, then they should've filled it in and built the blvd.

But the boulevard could not be completed by October 2015! ....Oh wait.....

Ideally a tunnel for the highway with a boulevard on top but these ped tunnels on top? Not so much, but I'll reserve a final judgement until the entire project is complete (if I'm still alive).

After closer examination, the side walls they are building on lid look to be closer to 10 feet high. They ought to pretty much screen any views north or south from the Lid.

That means when walking across the Lid, you'd get no view of the Old Cathedral, Laclede's Landing, etc. Just a straight on view into the Arch or the Old Court House.

This project feels very suburban and sterile.

To be fair, the project isn't even done yet.

And while I think the new pedestrian tunnels obscure the view, they aren't as bad as "tunnels", it's more of a decorative mesh and you can still see through and get fresh air. It's not like you're walking into an enclosed passage.

I'm not a fan of them, but I don't loathe them either. You still are supposed to have the middle park to walk across for unobstructed views, I guess?

The wall they're building? Yeah, that looks totally ridiculous, I can't even imagine what that is going to be or look like when completed.

I have not been a fan of this plan since the beginning, it's just sad to imagine what could've been vs. what we're getting.

Olividarte, just guessing, but you sound like someone with a professional design background.

What is the real value in placing a meshed pedestrian corridor on top of a bridge? Whenever I am walking across a bridge, it's fun to look out/down over the edge.

What does this mesh add in terms of value? Noise abatement? I'm trying to understand how you make the case for these things.

The CAR guy said it was to help you forget about the highway. If that's the case, it just doesn't seem realistic. The highway is there and it is what it is.

You know what this sort of reminds me of? A zoo amenity. In a zoo or an amusement park, there are all sorts of creative walkways/corridors/tunnels, etc.

Is that the aim here? To create a sort of amusement park/creative access experience? If so, it's what I said before, a very sterile, suburban treatment.

The canopy is separating the pedestrian from the urban environment and placing them instead in this sort of isolated Arch experience.

Or am I being too critical?

Not being too critical.

Isn't the mesh generally to keep idiots from throwing stuff at cars on the highway?

Yesterday there was a group of people crossing the Walnut street bridge walking outside of the canopy, between the lanes of moving traffic and the south side of the canopy. Maybe they didn't know the canopy was open? But other people were using the canopy. Are the canopies an optional route or will everyone be forced into the canopies? How will that work when big crowds are exiting the park all at the same time?

One criticism of the old depressed lanes condition (pre CAR, per-Lid days, etc), was how the transition area separating the Arch from downtown was just a mass of overbuilt, layer upon layer of infrastructure. I wonder how much this new plan will feel the same way? Or maybe even worse?

The sponsors are saying the canopies will be lighted. And they are also saying the underpass near Washington Avenue will have lots of new treatments including lighting.

Isn't the beauty of the Arch largely in its simplicity? Will all these adornments around the edges add to that or detract? I wonder.

Back to those high side walls on the main lid. Yesterday on the news there was a story about the groundbreaking for the next phase of Arch construction. During the piece, they ran some stock video featuring architectural renderings of the project, showing the view of the completed Lid looking east to the Arch entrance. In that view, you see mature trees growing next to these new sidewalls of the lid and a lush green lawn crossing the depressed lanes on the new Lid.

However, I have heard the builders are running into problems figuring out how to grow grass on the lid. And how do you grow large trees into a concrete deck? Maybe instead there will be artificial turf and movable trees placed in big movable planters? Those sorts of trees never get _that_ big. They're more the sorts of things you see placed around the food court areas of shopping malls.

It all makes you wonder how much the final product will look like the sales pitch sold to the community?

^ It's been mentioned before, but a great example of a bridge over a highway with grass and trees is 5th St over I-75/I-85 in Atlanta. (Google Maps Streetview)

Northside Neighbor wrote: Yesterday on the news there was a story about the groundbreaking for the next phase of Arch construction. During the piece, they ran some stock video featuring architectural renderings of the project, showing the view of the completed Lid looking east to the Arch entrance. In that view, you see mature trees growing next to these new sidewalls of the lid and a lush green lawn crossing the depressed lanes on the new Lid.

Here is what looks to me to be one of the original/early renderings we've been seeing all along: http://www.cityarchriver.org/SliderGallery/

The lid appears to be a lot of concrete but the mature trees you mention do seem to appear at the ends where these new mesh corridors are. No mesh corridors appear in the rendering as far as I can tell.

The mesh corridors are odd to me. I haven't followed the media announcements or explanation of them but I first became aware of them a week or two ago when driving home a route I usually don't take which leads me right by them. When I first saw them I thought "Oh, this makes sense as a temporary design to help navigate people to the Arch grounds from downtown during construction". I thought this b/c every time I have been down there since the old overpasses have been removed people seem confused about how to get to the Arch grounds and are often kind of just walking thru the middle of the street at Walnut and Memorial where highway traffic from I-44 funnels into downtown.

I just assumed these were put up during construction as a safety and navigation feature. Apparently I'm incorrect? We're positive these are permanent fixtures for the project?

^ Definitely permanent. My favorite comment about them is from a tweet by NextSTL: "Holy galvanized hamster cage, what is that? "

Does anyone know if the Pine and Walnut Street bridges will allow cars on them? And will pedestrians have the option of walking outside of the canopies?

I think cars will be allowed on the Walnut Bridge, since they are now and that's the way you'd get from the Old Cathedral across into downtown.

But what about the other bridge (north of the Lid)? I think that's Pine, but maybe it's a different street. Anyhow, will cars be allowed on it?

So if you're a pedestrian using either of these two alternative crossing, first you have to cross a street (on both the east and west side of the bridge), then you enter the canopy area.

So on foot you're interacting with autos, crosswalks, pedestrian signals, etc, 2X (once on the east side of the bridge and once on the west side of the bridge) to get from downtown to your Arch grounds destination. Is that all correct? Seems sort of confusing from a pedestrian standpoint.

Northside Neighbor wrote:Does anyone know if the Pine and Walnut Street bridges will allow cars on them? And will pedestrians have the option of walking outside of the canopies?

• Walnut will be open to cars as it is how vehicles from I-44 and Poplar Street Bridge access the south side of downtown.
• Pine will be a pedestrian bridge.
• Since Memorial Drive has been removed from the east side of I-44, you only need to cross the street once (twice from south of walnut or west of 4th St) to get to the Arch grounds from the city side.
• In the diagram below which I got from MoDOT (click to view the source image), you can just barely see the pedestrian canopies on Pine and Walnut. On Walnut, the only passage is underneath the canopy; not so for Pine.

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Thanks for the excellent info. Thanks very much.

In going to the C+A+R site, there is hardly any info at all about the Walnut and Pine bridges. The entire thing is seems to be only about the Lid, the Old Court House/Kiener Plaze area, and the areas confined by the four corners of the Arch grounds.

You'd think they'd devote more to all these new access points, specifically the Pine, Walnut, and then Washington Avenue connections.

Anyhow, so you've made it clear. At Walnut, there will be cars and pedestrians. At Pine, only pedestrians. So at the Pine crossing, peds can either walk through the canopy, or stay out in the open on the main bridge. I guess they added the canopy there to create symmetry with the Walnut Streeet bridge?

I wonder how many will go into it (the Pine Street canopy) versus simply staying out in the open air? I can see little kids running and hiding from their parents inside that thing already.

A reminder that the bridge over the hwy will be extensively landscaped including mature trees. So even thought the new walls seem high, there will be several feet of soil on top and landscaped terraces hiding them from view. I believe the effect will be almost as if you are coming along a forested path and stumble upon a majestic open vista with the Arch looming majestically before you. While much of the landscaping on the present Arch grounds is grandfathered in because of architectural significance, there is more room for innovation on adjoining parcels(including the Arch garage space). Like City Garden did, I believe there is real opportunity to blow us away with design if executed correctly. From what I have seen so far, considering all the stakeholders involved CAR will be worth the wait.

The areas of the lid leading up to the highway may be 'heavily landscaped' but I would be very surprised if the section directly overlying the highway lanes ends up with anything more than grass or ground-cover.

I think if they would have dubbed the lid a "Land Bridge" instead of the "Park Over the Highway" there would be less wondering about the overall idea.

If they want people to forget about the highway, why mention the dreadful thing in the branding of the project?

The areas of the lid leading up to the highway may be 'heavily landscaped' but I would be very surprised if the section directly overlying the highway lanes ends up with anything more than grass or ground-cover.

You don't put in 10' foot walls to hold dirt for just grass.